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Breaker panel layout.

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Codyboy

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Now that I have power to the shop I'll be wiring the panel.
I did wire the two lighting circuits so I could finally have some lights.

What is your preferred method of breaker location in the panel?
Like all the 240 DP on one side, or staggered left to right?
SP breakers on one side or staggered left and right.
I know the electricity don't care just trying to figure what looks better / neater.

I was kind of thinking all the circuits that come from the right side into the panel to keep those on the right and the left on the left.

How do yall wire yours?
 
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mm08822

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wyliesdiesels said:
doesnt matter what side of the panel you put breakers because the bus stabs alternate phase to phase in each space

but one thing you do want to watch for is stacking high current breakers on top of each other. like double 30s or 50s which can build up heat.
Click to expand...
Also avoiding across from each other as they are sharing the same stab.
 
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Codyboy

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wyliesdiesels said:
doesnt matter what side of the panel you put breakers because the bus stabs alternate phase to phase in each space

but one thing you do want to watch for is stacking high current breakers on top of each other. like double 30s or 50s which can build up heat.
Click to expand...
Makes sense. Didn't think about that.
 
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larry4406

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I am no expert.

My electrician says he puts all of the 240V breakers up closest to the main so as to minimize drop across the length of the bus. Seems reasonable to me as I had asked as to why they were always closest to the main.

Yes checking the bus stab rating is prudent.

Lots of components use inverter motors today. These make noise that can cause lights to flicker. Some people are adversely susceptible to the flicker while others don't see it all. At the day job we have been dealing with this ever since LED's became prevalent as many people do not tolerate the flicker (electrical noise). We have had to move washer machines, dishwashers, fart fans, inverter fridges, etc to separate them from them from lighting circuits (yes we have tried higher quality bulbs...). My opinion this is becoming a problem; I am sure there will be a Code change requiring some new gizmo to combat this (sorry bad attempt at a joke).
 
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Codyboy

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mike93lx said:
Leave a spot closest to the main for a surge protector and if you might ever want a generator on an interlock, leave a space for that
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Oh good idea on the surge / lightning arrester.

The ATS will be out by the meter / main pedestal where the generator will be.

Do the L/A , surge protector really work though? Ive never looked into them.
 
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mike93lx

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Codyboy said:
Do the L/A , surge protector really work though? Ive never looked into them.
Click to expand...
I have a bunch and haven't lost any equipment yet. If that isn't proof, I don't know what is 😁

They are pretty cheap and have insurance. Admittedly the insurance is probably nearly uncollectable, but if I lose enough stuff that the insurance matters, I'll let Erie fight with them
 
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sparky 1971

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I start at the bottom and work my way up. I find it's easier to get it looking decent when not having to cross wires that have been landed on a breaker already. Of course, I use Square D and they found it beneficial to leave the top two knockouts open so if I don't have a full panel I am either slapping ko fillers in or sacrificing a couple of breakers for spares (this isn't an issue if it's bottom fed). I will also try to keep the high current breakers towards the top with a single pole between them
 
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Codyboy

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wyliesdiesels said:
Then this panel will be a subpanel with 4-wire feed.

Your ATS will need to be the main service panel.
Click to expand...
Yes. But I'll have to make the ATS a subpanel too.
Fed from the main built in to the meter pedestal.
 

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Codyboy

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wyliesdiesels said:
Are you switching the neutral?
Click to expand...
At the ATS? No idea.
Haven't looked into that part of it yet.
Other than the main breaker now has to stay the main since there's no way to feed the ATS from the load side of the meter since its a meter/main pedestal.
 

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Codyboy

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I have completed most of the wiring in the panel.
A couple of circuits aren't wired yet, like my floods.
I think it turned out well. Probably not as straight and squared as some here may do, but neat and tidy.
I even set my water heater today and had hot water for a long shower compared to the RV for the past few months.
 

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rlitman

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sparky 1971 said:
I start at the bottom and work my way up. I find it's easier to get it looking decent when not having to cross wires that have been landed on a breaker already. ... I will also try to keep the high current breakers towards the top with a single pole between them
Click to expand...
Sounds like solid hard earned advice.

For the second part, I'll add for those not familiar, heat can soak from heavily used breakers to their neighbors. Putting two air conditioner (or heater) breakers next to each other for example can lead to nuisance trips if they're pushing their limits.
 
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yatg

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You might want a ground bar on the left side. It keeps the grounds with the circuit conductors, and reduces the tangle of ground wires on the right

You could have flipped the panel and put the main on the bottom. Then you wouldn't have the feeder wires filling up the gutter.
 
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Codyboy

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yatg said:
You might want a ground bar on the left side. It keeps the grounds with the circuit conductors, and reduces the tangle of ground wires on the right

You could have flipped the panel and put the main on the bottom. Then you wouldn't have the feeder wires filling up the gutter.
Click to expand...
Yes I may end up putting another grounding bar on the left when I start wiring that side of the shop.
But yeah those feeders are a bit in the way for that.
I thought about flipping the panel with the main on bottom but a couple reasons I didn't.
1. 4/0 in that short of a distance would **** to terminate.
2. All my branch circuits come from the bottom and seemed it would be too congested.
3. I like having extra length on the feeders. In case something ever happened and needed to reterminate them. Possibly could do that up top or worst case flip the panel over then.
 
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sparky 1971

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When you start landing circuits on the left side, put the neutrals in the rear bar first. It's a real pita trying to land neutrals on the rear neutral bar after the front bar is filled up. If SQ D would pull their heads out of their keister and make a bar than ran the length of the breakers like everyone else does it wouldn't be an issue.
 
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Codyboy

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mike93lx said:
The 100 extra feet makes it easy as well
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Not really, but thankful to get that extra 100ft.
I'll use it somewhere I'm sure.

But not really helpful if I were to have a burned up lug and end of the wire ( if panel was inverted, like Maverick was) lol.
 
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Codyboy

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sparky 1971 said:
When you start landing circuits on the left side, put the neutrals in the rear bar first. It's a real pita trying to land neutrals on the rear neutral bar after the front bar is filled up. If SQ D would pull their heads out of their keister and make a bar than ran the length of the breakers like everyone else does it wouldn't be an issue.
Click to expand...
Yes that would be a pain.

However the 6 circuits for the outlets that I will put on the left will share a neutral just like I did for the 1AB, 2AB, and 3AB circuits. There will also be a few dedicated 240 circuits ( no neutral) for the welder, table saw, and air compressor and probably something else I'm forgetting.
I should have plenty of neutral spaces on the front bar. But yes it would be better if SqD just put a longer bar instead of stacked like they do.
But it does keep it a little more tidy in one spot than a long bar. Idk. I don't wire panels all the time (never really) except every 10 years. Lol.

I possibly could run out of grounding bar spaces though being that this is a subpanel. But I'll cross that bridge then.

I tried to do like yall were talking about and space out the high load circuits. Seems like it will work out well that way.
 
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Codyboy

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mike93lx said:
There's a project for tomorrow!
Click to expand...
I'd bet you could fit a mess of wires in there.
I know the groundbar i have will easily take a #4.
I actually had the #4 ground in one but didn't like how it looked. So I bought that fork looking thing so it could go straight in. But the hole was on the wrong side.
A little modification later and the he was in the correct spot.
 
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mm08822

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sparky 1971 said:
When you start landing circuits on the left side, put the neutrals in the rear bar first. It's a real pita trying to land neutrals on the rear neutral bar after the front bar is filled up. If SQ D would pull their heads out of their keister and make a bar than ran the length of the breakers like everyone else does it wouldn't be an issue.
Click to expand...
And everyone enjoys working on stacked neutral bars after the panel is up and running......another 1 or 2 circuits to find which cb to shut off to get those neutrals out of the way out to release the neutral of interest.
 
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sparky 1971

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mm08822 said:
And everyone enjoys working on stacked neutral bars after the panel is up and running......another 1 or 2 circuits to find which cb to shut off to get those neutrals out of the way out to release the neutral of interest.
Click to expand...
My most favorite thing to add a circuit to is the old QO panels that have the horizontal neutral bars at the top. Not only did some doofus fill the front bar up, the rear bar is above it so that the previously installed wires are blocking the screw holes. Fun times.
 
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Norcal

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One of many peeves of mine is when power enters the bottom & someone installs the main breaker or lugs at the top, just adds a lot of slop to the panel.
 
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wyliesdiesels

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sparky 1971 said:
My most favorite thing to add a circuit to is the old QO panels that have the horizontal neutral bars at the top. Not only did some doofus fill the front bar up, the rear bar is above it so that the previously installed wires are blocking the screw holes. Fun times.
Click to expand...
i absolutely despise stacked neutral bars. :mad:

some engineer who has never trimmed out a panel designed those to save space... :willy_nil 🤑
 
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