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breakers too large for appliance

American Locomotive

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I'm not on site.

I wasn't asking for you guys to figure out what breakers to use. The manual says 20a and the HVAC company says 20a, so I will replace the 25 or 30a ones in there with 20s. I'm pretty sure they're 25s. What I was asking was what would the theoretical benefit be to using 20s on a circuit made for 25s. Is it just following the manual? Do the 20s trip easier? What sort of situation would happen where the 25s would not trip and the 20s would, and would it matter?

With automotive fuses, the smaller fuse burns out quicker, more likely saving the wiring in the case of a short. Is it the same for breakers? Or does a short trip the 20 and 25a breakers equally fast?
The circuit won't care. There is no benefit. On a dead short, any breaker will trip in less than 1 AC cycle.

The equipment may want a 20A breaker vs. a 25 because the input circuitry on the control boards may not be sized to handle anything larger, and could possibly smoke or blow in the event of an overload situation.

All modern minisplits have electronically driven inverter motors, so I'm not sure if NEC motor sizing tables apply?
 
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BurtEggley

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here they require fuses within reach of the outdoor unit, and the fuses are determined by the name plate. The breaker can be equal or greater but the fuses have to match the nameplate. I would suggest posting the nameplate if you need a finite answer. Also there is normally a length part of the equation too. An outdoor unit 65' away may need a different gauge than one 20' away. Remember that it just isn't linear distance, there is wall climb into an attic and drop. That is all part of the overall length.
 

Norcal

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here they require fuses within reach of the outdoor unit, and the fuses are determined by the name plate. The breaker can be equal or greater but the fuses have to match the nameplate. I would suggest posting the nameplate if you need a finite answer. Also there is normally a length part of the equation too. An outdoor unit 65' away may need a different gauge than one 20' away. Remember that it just isn't linear distance, there is wall climb into an attic and drop. That is all part of the overall length.
NO, nope, no, the fuse or circuit breaker cannot exceed the nameplate.
 

dscheidt

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NO, nope, no, the fuse or circuit breaker cannot exceed the nameplate.

It's perfectly acceptable to have a >20A breaker feeding a disconnect with 20A fuses or breakers in it. The breaker in the panel is there to protect the wiring, the breaker or fuse in the disconnect is for the equipment. It's very common to find this where the equipment was replaced and the new equipment is smaller or more efficient than the old. It's also common when a rough in for an AC is done during construction, and the equipment to be installed isn't known to the electrician. They can provide a 30A circuit, and the HVAC installer can fit appropriate protection in the disconnect. I'd bet at least half the houses that had AC installed before the 90s and have had the system replaced are like this.
 
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wyliesdiesels

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Modesto, CA
What I was asking was what would the theoretical benefit be to using 20s on a circuit made for 25s. Is it just following the manual? Do the 20s trip easier? What sort of situation would happen where the 25s would not trip and the 20s would, and would it matter?
its called startup in-rush current. yes a 20 could trip where a 25 would not

this is why its important to follow THE NAMEPLATE
 

wyliesdiesels

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here they require fuses within reach of the outdoor unit, and the fuses are determined by the name plate.

where is here?

And do they have a WRITTEN amendment requiring fuses on all units even if fuses arent called for? if not then its not a legal requirement. they cant enforce it because the NEC doesnt require fuses.

The breaker can be equal or greater but the fuses have to match the nameplate. I would suggest posting the nameplate if you need a finite answer. Also there is normally a length part of the equation too. An outdoor unit 65' away may need a different gauge than one 20' away. Remember that it just isn't linear distance, there is wall climb into an attic and drop. That is all part of the overall length.

wrong.
 

mm08822

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Jan 13, 2012
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here they require fuses within reach of the outdoor unit, and the fuses are determined by the name plate. The breaker can be equal or greater but the fuses have to match the nameplate. I would suggest posting the nameplate if you need a finite answer. Also there is normally a length part of the equation too. An outdoor unit 65' away may need a different gauge than one 20' away. Remember that it just isn't linear distance, there is wall climb into an attic and drop. That is all part of the overall length.
As already asked: where is here? B/c this is BS. All you need is a disconnect at the unit. No OCP required at this location. Can you, yes, must you, no. Fuses at the disconnect location make sense only as a convenient place to accomplish required (when nameplate requires) fuse protection and service disconnect simultaneously.

Not every unit specifies fuses. A fuse curve can be different than a cb, hence different values.

NEC 440.52B states that the BRANCH CIRCUIT OCP must be not greater than 125% of rated compressor load (plus fan) .....i.e. the MOC value. This would include the cb protecting the conductors supplying the disconnect and so on............

Again, where is this?
What construction office purportedly has these made-up rules?
 

mm08822

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It's perfectly acceptable to have a >20A breaker feeding a disconnect with 20A fuses or breakers in it. The breaker in the panel is there to protect the wiring, the breaker or fuse in the disconnect is for the equipment. It's very common to find this where the equipment was replaced and the new equipment is smaller or more efficient than the old. It's also common when a rough in for an AC is done during construction, and the equipment to be installed isn't known to the electrician. They can provide a 30A circuit, and the HVAC installer can fit appropriate protection in the disconnect. I'd bet at least half the houses that had AC installed before the 90s and have had the system replaced are like this.
I follow the thinking if #10 copper was used with a 30A cb (e.g.) and then the ckt "tuned" at the local disconnect with a permitted fuse/cb size <=MOC,
BUT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>NEC 440.52B states that the BRANCH CIRCUIT OCP must be not greater than 125% of rated compressor load (plus fan) .....i.e. the MOC value. This would include the cb protecting the conductors supplying the disconnect and so on............

Why not just put in the correct sized cb and use a non-fused disco?
 
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