Bringing 2 120v lines back together for 240v Service

[wyliesdiesels]

I had to google 4 jaw meter pan but now I get what you are saying. Unfortunately, for the community power, it isn't likely that the association would allow me to install a 240v meter. They'd probably feel it was opening a can of worms with other types of requests from other members about special connections to the power system. Their position would likely be "you have a 40 amp circuit per meter and you can use it how you want! but that's what you get!"

See below for a drawing of the community setup. The two meters need to stay located where they are and they have to remain 120v each. This isn't much of a problem for me. This is plenty of power for my needs. The 240v would be a "nice to have" and it would simplify wiring my workshop sub panels since I'd have 2 legs. Instead, I'll just have to install two 120v panels in the workshop if I want to make use of both circuits (if I want to do it the "right" way).

I can still get 240v off an autotransformer or via other solar equipment if I want to . Or I can get dedicated utility service, but I don't see a need for that.

Are the meters on the same bussway, can or backerboard as the main panel in your drawing?

Have u thought of ASKING the association if u could put in a 120v/240v service? U could get rid of the 2 feeds and replace it with one feed.

OK 1 more attempt at trying to explain why a panel with 2 different feeds would be problematic, even if you just are supplying 120V loads.

If you just hookup the neutral from L1 and L2 is being used current would still be flowing in the neutral on L1, and vice versa.

If you hookup up both neutrals the load would be split up evenly between the 2 neutrals and 1/2 the current would still be flowing through the neutral of the other circuit.

Since you are planning on installing 2 completely separate panels in your outbuilding there is no problem.

Actually he WOULD have a problem as u cant have 2 feeds to an outbuilding or detached structure...

Fact of the matter is that a load on L1 and an equal load on L2 result in no current in the neutral. So that 240 volt "derived" service will have less or equal load on the neutral than 2 separate circuits would. If there is electrically conductive material between L1 and L2 then a shorted secondary transformer is created. So theoretically even the wet ground could draw off energy.

An electrician will never agree with what the OP hopes to do, so asking for permission is fruitless.

Yes, there would be NO load in the neutral however, the OP was planning on using TWO neutrals. Granted they ARE the SAME neutral but split. Im not sure how this would pan out. It would be better to have a single neutral derived from the line side of the meter but then the load wouldnt be properly metered...

And the issue with metal ISNT a shorted secondary on the transformer but rather induced heating of the metal...

 

[alfredeneuman]

Actually he WOULD have a problem as u cant have 2 feeds to an outbuilding or detached structure...

I should qualified it by saying that according to him, he isn't subject to any Codes.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I should qualified it by saying that according to him, he isn't subject to any Codes.

Yeah hes kinda of conflicted. Hes not worried about codes but IS concerned about what the association would think. It would seem to me that if the association was concerned that they would want any electrical done properly to code so as to avoid any lawsuits...

 

[CA_Tallguy]

Yes, the meters are coming off the same can. It wouldn't be a problem to ensure they are on different legs, with or without using a dual pole breaker.

The association would indeed allow me to obtain my own service from the utility for 120/240 as many here have done. But I don't think it is even worth asking them if I can do that on the community feed. There are quite a number of reasons why, from people and personalities to some reasons I actually agree with. To stay within the shared community power structure, there isn't any way around having two 120v meters.

So, as I've said, I have no pressing need for 240v but I have several ways that I feel comfortable getting it, including options for short term/on demand connections to more permanent connections.

95% of my needs can be met with the one 40A 120v circuit currently going to the workshop. It is looking like the other 5% will be met with a battery bank and some sort of charger/inverter designed for use with solar panels. That will give me all the power I need just using the one 40a 120v circuit even WITHOUT solar panels (which will subsequently be added to that setup). As far as electrical, I'd rather start spending money on batteries and the equipment I want to have for solar instead of a utility connection.

Once I get that setup in place, I may even feed the RV side via the empty PVC conduit I have running to/from the workshop. Then, my RV would be utilizing any solar I eventually install. (on top of the solar on top of the RV). And I can also give it 50 amp service. In the meantime, I may feed a TT30 plug in the workshop from the RV side just in case I want to run a few amps that way now and then.

 

[CA_Tallguy]

Yeah hes kinda of conflicted. Hes not worried about codes but IS concerned about what the association would think. It would seem to me that if the association was concerned that they would want any electrical done properly to code so as to avoid any lawsuits...

I'm not worried about what they would think -- I just have a good idea on what battles I want to pick with the personalities there! This isn't one of them, especially since I agree with the rule limiting the shared power to one 120v meter per lot. Just one reason is because lots are bought and sold and each has to have a meter and 120v service. Running the conduit between my lots is about as far as I can stretch the use as if I ever sell I can just disconnect and seal up the conduit.

 

[jpinca]

These discussions are always entertaining.

I like that you are trying to understand the "why" behind the code. I try to teach my junior engineers to always ask "why do we do it this way?" and "is the reason still relevant?"

Oftentimes, the people that created rules/procedures/standards/laws are long retired/dead and no one knows why they do it that way, only that it is required by the __________ (insert code, standard, or law).

The NEC isn't some gospel handed down on a mountain top. It is merely a set of recommendations (often codified into law) based on experience and (usually) sound engineering judgement.

That being said, I can't comment if your idea is good or bad. If you strictly follow the latest NEC though, you're probably less likely to kill yourself along with bus (RV) load of nuns.

JP

 

[CA_Tallguy]

BTW, you California guys really love to be subject to code, eh? LOL

That's why I'm a former Californian! Born and raised, living on the sunset strip until I finally had enough of the state government a couple years back. I love the freedom we have out here in the sticks!

Kidding aside, I suppose this thread also shows that I care about the safety of things (and by extension I have some respect for the NEC) which is why I started this thread in the first place instead of going off and wiring up something willy-nilly that I knew would work. And in the end, I'll be code compliant with regards to keeping the circuit conductors together!

 

[CA_Tallguy]

These discussions are always entertaining.

I like that you are trying to understand the "why" behind the code. I try to teach my junior engineers to always ask "why do we do it this way?" and "is the reason still relevant?"

Much appreciated! That's really all it is here though I sense some in this thread are convinced I want to hotwire the planet.

Plus, I didn't even know what the code was or safety implications until putting the question out there to the board. And that's why I asked!

 

[404]

Yes, there would be NO load in the neutral however, the OP was planning on using TWO neutrals. Granted they ARE the SAME neutral but split. Im not sure how this would pan out. It would be better to have a single neutral derived from the line side of the meter but then the load wouldnt be properly metered...

And the issue with metal ISNT a shorted secondary on the transformer but rather induced heating of the metal...

And that heating is caused by the the conduit being a shorted turn inside the primary current loop.

 

[CA_Tallguy]

Well, the power co-op is here installing my 200 amp meter -- turns out it was so cheap to have it installed that it didn't make sense to try deriving power other ways. Just $350 since they only have to trench about 10 feet. Now I have a 200 amp main panel and TWO 100 amp subpanels. And only 7 cents per KWh

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So now u have 120/240v service?

 

[CA_Tallguy]

Yeah now I just need to decide what kinds of outlets I want and where. I figure that I'll mostly put in straight 240 outlets for welders plus a couple that are 120/240. I also installed a pedestal for my RV with 20 and 30 amp 120 and 120/240 50 amp. Running a straight 240 circuit for a mini split heat pump today as well.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Well glad u resolved that.

Getting a new service is A LOT easier than what u were trying to do!