Build shop at same time as house?

[Innovate1]

Have plans to start a 1600 sq ft house with 2 car garage and 1200 sq ft detached garage (shop) build. Corner city lot in old part of town that allows that big of detached garage (most don't). Struggling with the fact that we are over building in that part of town and trying to keep the cost down - we can afford it and don't plan to move but health and other things may change where we need to. About 6 years from retirement.

Elevations are critical - house is a walkout and slope of lot is just enough to do that. Its a corner lot with the drive for the shop off the other street where its fairly flat.

We were our own GC for our current house and hired out most of the work although I did all the electrical and hydronic floor heat and lots of other work on various things to keep things moving.

Current plan is to have an engineering company help with getting the foundation in since elevations are critical.

We are thinking we may put off the shop for now and try to find someone in the next few years to do it. But it seems like getting the foundation in at the same time as the house might save a significant cost and only tear up the yard once.

Wondering if I should get the shop up at the same time. Final plan is for insulation, HVAC and a half bath. Considering if I should just do the shell with floor, rough in the bath and bring utilities to the building but skip the insulation, sheetrock, HVAC, etc. We could then have some time to find deals on those things and do some ourselves.

One of the concerns is that the building code here isn't on the latest revision and if we wait they are likely to move to the newer one and that will raise the cost.

Thoughts?

 

[sberry]

Shop first, use it to work on the house.

 

[carnutdallas]

Do it all now! I emphasize that because anything can change and not for the better with construction cost. Why have concrete trucks come back? Why live through construction again? You do not need anyone permission now, why fight for it later?

Do it all now and send us pics!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[matt_i]

I'd say based on the half-bath in shop alone, it would be good to do that all at once. Permitting to laying the waste pipe are something I'd only want to handle once.

Finishing the shop "in full" (your insulation + HVAC + drywall) is a yin/yang. Yes you could potentially save some money, but if this is later in life and your finances are closer to cash than loan, I think I would get it done as part of the package. Trying to drywall around a partially filled shop is a recipe for inefficiency and slow progress...I know this from direct experience. On the other hand, with open walls one could potentially make adjustments to the electrical system, especially if there's a 240vac receptacle which was never placed or needs tweaking as far as location.

 

[Mattlt]

Do it now. Ideally, build the shop first. That way when the house costs run over budget you won't have to cut anything out of the shop. ;-)

Also, you'd have a place to store tools and materials while the house is being worked on.

When I built mine, they used clay that was dug out from the house basement as fill for the shed base. Save a lot of hauling fill.

 

[Jackfre]

Shop first, use it to work on the house.

We have a winner!

 

[Innovate1]

Guess I should have expected the emphais on the shop - after all this is GARAGE journal. LOL

Seriously, I appreciate the feedback. We had thought about adding on a bit to the house and possibly not doing the shop build at all but I think some of the shop stuff will still displace cars in the attached garage and would be preferred to have the shop.

 

[k1rodeoboater]

Given how you described the layout of the property it won't really be advantageous from a storage perspective for the tradesmen. They'll bring their own trailers or on site storage solution with them. The attached garage will ultimately become the staging point for all your construction materials as it's closest to the primary project. If you were doing the majority of the construction yourself I'd be in the boat chanting to build the shop first with everyone else. Seeing as you'll be the GC again, and maybe taking on some of the rough-in/finishing, I don't really see it being as beneficial to build the shop first. By the time you'd be stepping in to do work all the windows/doors will be in place and the site can be secured.

Personally...I'd put the shop off till later. Probably going to be the minority opinion on that one though. My reasoning being once you're there you might find that your original plan for the property layout looked better on paper than in reality. You'll also want to see how runoff/drainage changes once the house is built since it sounds like you have a fair bit of an elevation change there

Even if you pour the foundation now, the yard is going to get torn up by foot traffic when construction happens later so you'll be fixing that regardless.

 

[zippyslug31]

Another vote for "do it all now"; this is what I did. Far too disruptive to keep having subs coming back over a strungout time frame so... ONE AND DONE!

 

[bamawildcat]

I'd recommend shop shell at the same time as house. Foundations, stubs for electric and comms, water and sewer. Outside finished, man door, and garage door. Don't even have to put in an opener- just have enough building where it is weather tight and lockable.

 

[rburke65]

Just an opinion, but I’d vote to do it all at once.

 

[Falcon67]

If I was going to build a pair on land, I would do the foundations at the same time, then erect the shop first for material storage and tool security, and as a base of operations for constructing the house.

 

[unslow1]

Do it now or it may never get done the way you want it. Things change and zoning, health or priorities might and you may never get it. The longer you wait the less time you will have to enjoy it. It will probably cost more to do it later as well.

 

[tez929rr]

If I was going to build a pair on land, I would do the foundations at the same time, then erect the shop first for material storage and tool security, and as a base of operations for constructing the house.

I concur. Since the OP is subject to city codes, there could easily be restrictions on what is built first.

 

[Innovate1]

When we were thinking of hiring a GC for a turn key operation we considered putting up just the shell of the shop and later doing some of the inside work ourselves to save some money. With the plan now to be our own GC it may make more sense to just finish up things. Building at least the shell would give us space to put some of our stuff and get our current place on the market sooner.

 

[Innovate1]

I doubt I could do the shop by itself first but if they are both on the same permit I don't think it matters which is put up first. They would just both need to be done to close out the permit and get occupancy permit.

Things like foundation and setting trusses requires equipment so doing both at once makes sense. The rest not so much but still some benefit to doing all the framing, for example, at once. Might also be an issue if they have to do inspections for each building separately.

 

[bamawildcat]

When we were thinking of hiring a GC for a turn key operation we considered putting up just the shell of the shop and later doing some of the inside work ourselves to save some money. With the plan now to be our own GC it may make more sense to just finish up things. Building at least the shell would give us space to put some of our stuff and get our current place on the market sooner.

You'd have to be careful around the neighbors, but if you build the shop first with a full bath and one climate controlled room, you could live in it while your other house sells and while the current house is being built. This is frowned upon because technically there is no certificate of occupancy yet, but it can be done as long as you don't make it patently obvious you are living there.

 

[LXCam]

Do it all now and be done with it. First off construction costs will never go down. And by not doing them simultaneously you’re doubling your labor cost for the garage construction plus not getting as good a deal on the materials. Everyone else’s points are very valid including your concerns about code changes. Plus since you’re close to retirement if you don’t do it now, will you ever. This might be your last chance to enjoy the fruits of your labor working your life away, get what you want while you can utilize it.

 

[rsanter]

Do it all now or part/most of it now.

At least have the foundation and rough plumbing done now.
Better is to complete the shell now or even complete the shell before the house and use the shop as storage for the house materials.

Best is compete both now

 

[Innovate1]

You'd have to be careful around the neighbors, but if you build the shop first with a full bath and one climate controlled room, you could live in it while your other house sells and while the current house is being built. This is frowned upon because technically there is no certificate of occupancy yet, but it can be done as long as you don't make it patently obvious you are living there.

I don't think that would fly and the SAF (spouse approval factor) would be poor. The neighbors are happy there is a house going in but there are a few people around that are want the rules followed. I could probably get by with crashing there after a late night of work once in a while but probably couldn't and wouldn't want to live there until things are finished.

 

[Falcon67]

I concur. Since the OP is subject to city codes, there could easily be restrictions on what is built first.

Excellent point - most generic codes preclude an "accessory structure" on a lot without a primary structure. Could be possible to ask for something like a time limited variance.

 

[58Yeoman]

I was my own GC in 1974 when we built our first house in a small town. Got a building permit, and that was it. Company came in and framed/sealed up the house. My brother and I closed up the attached 3 car garage to store our materials. Paid the town guy $50 fee to knock a hole in the sewer line and put in a bell for my sewer. He left, and I had to redo it, as it fell out soon after. We never did get a occupancy okay. Ya gotta love small towns in the old days.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I'm in the shop first crowd. Not so much as months before but as a work place and storage for the house materials.


You could also, unless code frowns upon it, power up the garage run the house from the garage.

 

[RedBKM]

I chose to build to my shop first. It is located in rural Virginia with no angry neighbors and other city woes. That was 7 years prior to building the house, which is going on now.

My biggest hang up was getting electric service. My local power company will run up to 1000' of service to a DWELLING for free but considered my shop a commercial structure. Their charge was $8 per foot! I buried my own wire and set the meter by the power pole to avoid this.

I also drilled my well 7 years prior and got an agriculture permit which is free. Not applicable in your area I'm sure.

Other than that it was a great benefit. I have parked equipment, stored materials etc. and I still have my appliances in there. The help really likes having a cold fridge and a shady place to eat lunch everyday. I also use it as a base for my video security system that watches the work site.

 

[Innovate1]

I grew up in a country my closest neighbor was half a mile away. When my dad decided he needed a new equipment shed he asked around and found out if the AHJ (60 miles away) found out they would fine him with a double permit fee. He decided that would be cheaper than plans, permits, etc. We built it and nothing every became of fine. But that was around 1970 and things are likely tighter now.

More recently (1995) I lived in a small town in Indiana. No building codes. A building permit was something like $1 and they wanted to make sure you got on the tax roles. Otherwise pretty much anything was ok except septic systems that were state regulated. When I wanted to upgrade my main panel I ended up talking to the utility. No problem - just let us know when you want it done. If you trench the ditch we will provide the meter base and wire to it. I installed the new panel beside the old one, ran some circuits between them to provide temporary power. Called to tell them I was ready to switch. They sent 2 guys out who asked "are you ready for us to switch it over?" "Yes, do you want to look at it?" "No, we have other things to do today, we are just here to hook it up."

So they dropped the overhead line and put in the underground and were on their way.

Small towns are great. But I also understand that a lot of people will cut corners or not know what they are doing.

 

[Innovate1]

The comment about security reminded me that is one thing I have thought a little about. Wondering about theft of lumber and such before things get closed up. Not a bad neighborhood but everything will be fairly close to the street. Had considered fencing the lot. Have met the neighbors and have no concerns there - think they would report anything that looks wrong. Considered putting a camera in an upstairs window of the neighbors to keep an eye on things.

 

[James-W]

Since you were the general contractor on your current house I am assuming you will be the general contractor on the new house and new shop. Apparently on your current house you had builders do most, if not all, of the construction work, but you did the electrical and some other stuff as well. Again, I am assuming you will be doing the same with the new house and garage.

If that is the case, then I suggest that you build the house first and forget about the shop for the time being. HOWEVER, pour the concrete for the shop at the same time as you have the house foundation poured. My thinking, right or wrong, is as follows.

The house should come first and don't scrimp on anything, make it the way you want it to be because you and your wife will be living in it probably for the rest of your lives. I wouldn't be overly concerned about building materials being stolen, as the general contractor you can have the materials delivered as the construction crew needs them.

Once the shell is up and the doors and windows in, you can lock stuff up in the house. While the house is being built, construction crews generally have large trailers they use to lock up their tools/equipment, and besides that, most carpenters have a pickup truck that they use to transport their tools back and forth so that really shouldn't be a big concern either.

Once the house is finished and you are living in it, you can then proceed to take your time and figure out exactly what you want your new shop to be like, both inside and outside. If you want, you could take your time and build the whole thing yourself. You would most likely need some assistance with putting up the walls and the trusses, but with the help of a few friends on the weekend it shouldn't pose a big problem. Just have plenty of food and beverage and getting help shouldn't be a problem. You will no doubt save a lot of money by doing it yourself and have a good time doing it.

That is my opinion of the situation, others can and will no doubt disagree.

 

[Junkdrawer Dog]

Friend of mine built his shop first. Late 1970's, rural and very secluded setting. Don't remember the details but he was able to get electrical service without problems. Once he got the shop completed, he became engrossed in all his projects and lost interest in building the house. Unfortunately, his wife didn't. At one point he was considering letting the wife go and living in his shop. Eventually he hunkered down and built the house. He's still married and still questioning his decision, lol.

 

[SGKent]

If you are paying cash to build it and have adequate, or if you are financing and the income stream is reliable, a Benjamin Franklin close on yourself will answer the question. All you need is a piece of paper with a line drawn down the middle. On one side write down the reasons to, and on the other side write down the reasons not to. If it is income producing then you will want to factor that in to. If it is pleasure for retirement, I assure you that your stamina will decline faster the older you get. Most people should build their dream home and shop when they are in their 20's but they often can't afford it until they are near retirement. Enjoy

 

[Innovate1]

Good point. I am 60 and am in generally good health, not over weight, fairly active, etc but find my energy level/stamina decreasing. The building is for a hobby business and modest milling machine and such like. Our current 3 car garage is full of every thing but cars although one stall has a small tractor with loader that I will sell when I move. We want to use the attached garage for cars at the new place - nice when there is snow and ice. Or large hail that we get from time to time.

BTW, when I was younger and single ( early 30s) my shop stuff fit in a two car garage although I did have to put an airplane fuselage in the house through the patio door... (somewhat variable how much it impressed the ladies btw! Not as much as might be hoped) I had enough space, but now there are two peoples things and I need to put cars in the garage...

 

[rmack898]

Shop first, use it to work on the house.

I don't always agree with Carry but he is spot on in this case.

I'm going through the same process right now and the shop will be finished long before the house gets done.

 

[johnnyradiant]

We have a winner!

Absolutely. Not even close to a photo finish.

If there is building going on, and the demographic is about the same as everywhere else even if the code stays about the same there is a chance you won't be able to build what you want if the municipality tweaks their/your bylaws.

I've run into a couple 'next phase' projects that were stymied by local rules changing. It *****. Bin der dun dat, don't wanna do it aggin. Having even the shell up and lockable will be a bonus for the house build. I wouldn't imagine the yard work would be a super factor in overall scheme if it's DIY but time and money have a bad habit of adding up to having none of both categories left at the end of the day.

 

[mikegt4]

Excellent point - most generic codes preclude an "accessory structure" on a lot without a primary structure. Could be possible to ask for something like a time limited variance.

When I built my house (1990's in rural area) I wanted to built the detached garage first. The county said my choices were build both at the same time or house first. They said that they had problems with people running a business out of the garage and never building the house. Could have been something to that but I suspect it was more about property taxes on completed structures.

 

[bimmer1980]

Good point. I am 60 and am in generally good health, not over weight, fairly active, etc but find my energy level/stamina decreasing. The building is for a hobby business and modest milling machine and such like. Our current 3 car garage is full of every thing but cars although one stall has a small tractor with loader that I will sell when I move. We want to use the attached garage for cars at the new place - nice when there is snow and ice. Or large hail that we get from time to time.

BTW, when I was younger and single ( early 30s) my shop stuff fit in a two car garage although I did have to put an airplane fuselage in the house through the patio door... (somewhat variable how much it impressed the ladies btw! Not as much as might be hoped) I had enough space, but now there are two peoples things and I need to put cars in the garage...

What do you enjoy doing most? Building a house/garage or enjoying doing things in the building? Are you only managing it or doing certain portions of the actual build?

My vote is to get the house built and as much of the accessory building (garage) all in one shot. There will be some economies of scale doing everything at once. After seeing how long it has taken me on building my own garage, I wish I had sub'd out some of the work.

 

[Innovate1]

As long as I am not under a fast deadline I enjoy the building and doing things in the building. Plan to do some of the work but will sub out the major parts. May do some of the electrical, all of the low voltage (network, security, etc), maybe some of the finish carpentry. And lots of odds and ends.

 

[That Guy Scott]

Not sure if it’s already been said- I just built a house and I was NOT allowed to do the shop first. My hope was to use it for material storage, etc. The County said Hard No. i was able to grade the pad for the shop under the grading plan though. I moved into the house in March and I’m currently in the engineering and permit phase of the shop. Hoping by Christmas to finish the shop.
I’m in CA- YMMV

 

[Innovate1]

I can't do the shop first. I could get a permit for both at the same time. I considered putting in the foundations and then the shell of the shop first for storage but that would mean framing inspection of the shop before the house and I don't think that will fly. It's house first or both together. I am leaning toward both together.

 

[APEowner]

If you have the resources to do them both now that's what I'd do. It'll be less expensive and it'LLC be done with and you can go on to other projects sooner.

 

[rayra]

shop first, more secure storage of materials and a place to work out of the rain, if any

 

[ffemtdisp]

If you can do it now, DO IT NOW!!!

I built mine at the same time. From beginning to end the plan changed, and I had to put somethings off, but I have a building with a concrete floor to put my stuff in. if you wait....it may get never come to fruition