Building Techniques - Pole Parn to Structural Insulated Panels - Comments Requsted

[texas-saluki]

All,

I have been mainly lurking here for the past 6 months trying to absorb as much information I can and have a few questions for the group. These are mainly opinion questions, so would welcome as much feedback and perspective as possible.

I am looking to build a shop/garage/barn in the Dallas area and trying to research different construction techniques. I would like to get everyone’s thoughts on the different options, and let me know if I have missed any.

In Dallas I think the soil would shift around too much for Pole Barns but I think I have read a few that have built here. The design I currently have in my mind is a Monitor Style multi story with an upstairs apartment (mother in-law suite, office, workout room, etc). My plan is to have the center tall enough to be able pull in a motor home. Since I am in Dallas, AC is going to be required so I am taking long term energy requirements into the equation.

The main techniques for a building I have found are:

1. Stick & Frame (i.e. like a house)
2. Pole Barn (seems cheapest)
3. Steel framing (seem most expensive but can get some good spans and taller easier)
4. Structural Insulated Panels (SIP) – Not a lot of these but seems like an interesting option for a really efficient building
5. Timber Framing – This is cool option that could match old barns. Unclear on the costs

For size of the building it seems it could never be big enough so looking at 3000-4000 sqft (50x50 to 60x60 ish) plus the upstairs loft. Size may change to smaller when I start getting bids J

I would like the community’s thoughts on the different techniques in respect to:

• preference (why)
• Cost per SQ
• Longevity
• Maintenance
• (did I miss any key areas)

Thanks for your thoughts and comments

 

[Nuccio]

You forgot ICF's. That what I am leaning towards.

 

[larry_g]

I really hate questions like this. Not knowing the OP, real needs and budget. To me a post and beam with open rafters is the best looking inside. Makes it a bit more to do with living quarters above. Is the lower area just parking garage or is it a working shop with fab and other dirty work. You alluded to a barn, to me that means animals. Are you putting MIL in with the pigs?

Me I have a pole building. Cheapest way to close in space. It also what I can afford. My building is for working. Its not a parking garage. Its not a party place, and with a metal skinned pole building it doesn't seal up real good so heat and air are not really efficient. I do have in-floor hydronic heat that keeps me comfortable on cold days out there. If its to hot I'm not out there.

If your avatar is your car then I would think that a pole building would not suit your wants. Can you link a few garages on here that turn your crank. Does this look reasonable, to much or to little http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43321&page=8

I would think the guy in NZ would be building something right up your ally. Unfortunataly I can't find the build post.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[texas-saluki]

Larry,

After I read my post I noticed I did not describe the application (yea and these questions are kind of bogus but I figured I might learn something I missed)

By Barn I just like the look of old 100 year buildings... no animals just lots of...horses but they are typically enclosed with a hood Any design / technique I pick I don't anticipate it having a metal shell and would do hardie board siding

The application is a working area. Planning for a wood shop, metal shop, paint booth and general work area and area to store cars / tractor. The upstairs would be an office, and I may go 1 story if the costs are ultimately out of whack.

My objective of the build is a new home for the car in the avatar as the current garage does not allow it to get out an play enough (well I need to work on it more and need space) plus it is lonely and needs friends. I plan to start a car build with my son in about 6 years.

As for ones I like... there are so many and I have not bookmarked them

the Asylum http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3148

Arts & Crafts is nice from a fit and finish http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54654

Hope this helps...

Thanks

 

[bluesman2a]

I hate this question. Mainly because it reminds me so much of the issues I had when I started. I did much of the same research. There are all these great/exciting/new/efficient ways to build out there. What did I wind up doing? Stick frame. Why? Because regardless of what you read about on the interweb, unless you are building it yourself, you are hostage to what the builders in your area understand and are able to work with. I couldn't even find a builder that was willing to talk SIP or ICF.

I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss pole-buildings. You might be surprised, think of all the agricultural buildings in TX, many are most likely pole-barns. $/sqft they are hard to beat and if I had it to do over again, that's what I'd do.

Also another thought here. You will most likely get better pricing by going rectangular than square. As you go to a 50X50, with a loft, the material needs to be able to span the floor. With say a 30X70 you can get by with cheaper materials. Also this is more conducive to a multi-bay layout for working on multiple vehicles. just a thought.

 

[texas-saluki]

I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss pole-buildings. You might be surprised, think of all the agricultural buildings in TX, many are most likely pole-barns. $/sqft they are hard to beat and if I had it to do over again, that's what I'd do.

this is a good point, my fear on pole building is as a barn they are fine as if there is some shift it does not matter, but with something like a building / shop things would get off tilt easy I am hoping someone here has built one in DFW. I also plan on talking with a few builders.

Also another thought here. You will most likely get better pricing by going rectangular than square. As you go to a 50X50, with a loft, the material needs to be able to span the floor. With say a 30X70 you can get by with cheaper materials. Also this is more conducive to a multi-bay layout for working on multiple vehicles. just a thought.

I had this in the back of my mind and figured the center would be limited to the span I could do (monitor style) of ~30', but good thought on the rectangular design as it makes sense to have a shorter span and longer building Plus I do plan on having multiple bays inside to work on stuff... not sure how many garage doors I will have.

also here is another example of a design I like. http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71863

 

[bluesman2a]

this is a good point, my fear on pole building is as a barn they are fine as if there is some shift it does not matter, but with something like a building / shop things would get off tilt easy I am hoping someone here has built one in DFW. I also plan on talking with a few builders.

I can't speak for your specific area, but I think you're over-thinking this. Pole-structures have been used for the better part of 100 years or more. It's just a different way to frame/do a foundation. I've never heard of a properly constructed pole building getting "off tilt". Those poles are sunk a minimum of 3' down, maybe more in some places depending on the frost-line.

Also once you factor in things like exterior sheet metal/sheathing, interior sheathing/drywall, etc, that all makes the structure MUCH more rigid as well.

HTH...

 

[texas-saluki]

you're over-thinking this.

Did I mention I am an engineer... seems I am wired to over think things. Well according to my wife

When I drive down a road that used to be flat that is now wavy, I get nervous. If I was a structural engineer maybe this would have been easy

 

[bluesman2a]

Did I mention I am an engineer... seems I am wired to over think things. Well according to my wife

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm a belt/suspenders kinda guy too. My motto is that anything worth doing is worth OVER-doing (see my build thread for the Skunkworks). I can't tell you the number of conversations that I've had with builders that start "Yeah I know I don't NEED to make it that beefy, but I want to because it'll make me FEEL better..."

My only point in all of this is that I think based on what you've posted, it would be a good idea if you were to give this building method fair consideration after getting all the facts for your particular area/need.

OH! One other benefit of pole-buildings: You can do the concrete slab

A) once the building is already UP (i.e. no worry of rain/weather).
B) as you have money for it. With a building this size concrete will be a MAJOR expense (depending on your area/pricing $200 a yard installed is not unreasonable, at least around here). This way you can do part of it now, and hold off a year or more as things fill in (more cars, budget, etc.) before doing other sections.

 

[dwwright]

I'd probably suggest the pole barn as well for cost and overall size. There are a lot of things that can be done for changing the look on the outside and one can be buttoned up pretty well for energy efficiency. I had looked at a steel framed and timber framing for building a home from, using SIPs for the sides and roof. Cost wasn't bad, very comparable to stick framing, but for a shop it was over-kill.

 

[texas-saluki]

I'd probably suggest the pole barn as well for cost and overall size.

yea I want to go this way and hope to find someone that has one in Dallas...of course some of the builders can give some perspective also when I engage them I guess... but would like some real world experience

 

[larry_g]

Chris

Here is the New Zeland shop I spoke of earlier, neat place.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37625

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Wmumart]

All,

I have been mainly lurking here for the past 6 months trying to absorb as much information I can and have a few questions for the group. These are mainly opinion questions, so would welcome as much feedback and perspective as possible.

I am looking to build a shop/garage/barn in the Dallas area and trying to research different construction techniques. I would like to get everyone’s thoughts on the different options, and let me know if I have missed any.

In Dallas I think the soil would shift around too much for Pole Barns but I think I have read a few that have built here. The design I currently have in my mind is a Monitor Style multi story with an upstairs apartment (mother in-law suite, office, workout room, etc). My plan is to have the center tall enough to be able pull in a motor home. Since I am in Dallas, AC is going to be required so I am taking long term energy requirements into the equation.

The main techniques for a building I have found are:

1. Stick & Frame (i.e. like a house)
2. Pole Barn (seems cheapest)
3. Steel framing (seem most expensive but can get some good spans and taller easier)
4. Structural Insulated Panels (SIP) – Not a lot of these but seems like an interesting option for a really efficient building
5. Timber Framing – This is cool option that could match old barns. Unclear on the costs

For size of the building it seems it could never be big enough so looking at 3000-4000 sqft (50x50 to 60x60 ish) plus the upstairs loft. Size may change to smaller when I start getting bids J

I would like the community’s thoughts on the different techniques in respect to:

• preference (why)
• Cost per SQ
• Longevity
• Maintenance
• (did I miss any key areas)

Thanks for your thoughts and comments

I am in Asia now. SIP cost her is about 80% cheaper than in USA.
Soon I will open factory in Indonesia and we will deliver another huge discount to our buyers.
Cost of SIP is about 4-6$ per sq meter, add transportation and taxes lets say 8-12 $ final price , why they sell for 35$ and more??
Going back to question I would recommend steel structure and if you do want to save look at the way we build domes for factories and similar. Than if you want to be fancy add wood cladding at any time same time you can as well spray some fireproofing PU and make look like a tree .
SIP will give you best R value and more likely you will recover the difference in cost even if you buy direct in USA within 1-2 years. If you consider exterior to be more natural and do not care about the cost use brick,stone stucco. If the cost is critical spray on stucco, or cladding, metal wood or cast stone.
Depends on the location of your home barn, garage, depends on the configuration, take in consideration that garage in home is a hazard calling for accident. You can easily separate them with wall or just set apart.
I am looking foreword to see whom you choose to build this home for you, I want similar set up for my new home in Texas soon to.

 

[ibedayank]

hummm this is the gallery part of this forum.... i don't see any building going on...
questions should be asked here http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=3



General Garage Discussion

 

[Justanoldguy]

Well aren't you the clever one.
I guess you are a mod?
Maybe you can move it.
If you aren''t a mod then why does it bother you.

 

[ibedayank]

Well aren't you the clever one.
I guess you are a mod?
Maybe you can move it.
If you aren''t a mod then why does it bother you.

and neither are you


newbies...gotta love em.....

 

[Justanoldguy]

Don't recall ever trying to be a mod.
Unlike your comments.

 

[theoldwizard1]

In TX and A/C is "required", take a hard look at Structural Insulated Panels. Also ICF. The big benefit with these is there is no extra insulation required in the walls. ICF requires some type of exterior covering for durability. Probably should have interior sheeting also for durability.

Exterior style is up to your imagination.

 

[K'ledgeBldr]

Being very familiar with TX soils I know your reservation.
My first dealing with this was when I spent summers @ the grandparents in Athens. House on pier and beam- pole barn.
My grandparents actually lived in the barn while the house was being built. They enclosed a section of the barn and poured a slab. As the years went by the house did all kinds of moving- d/wall cracks, uneven floors, and windows and doors became inoperable. The barn suffered similar movement but, since it was a barn most would never know. My grandpa would point out the line on the corrugated metal where the concrete slab "used to be". In a couple of areas it had gaped to the point that field mice could get in.
Anyway, fast forward 45yrs and it is pretty much standard faire today that slabs in TX are post-tension cable. the slab stays in a monolithic form and can "float" over the ever changing soil conditions. And, if and when this year's drought comes to an end- there will be some dramatic changes I'm sure.
If I were personally (and professionally) going to build this size and scope of structure- I'd go post-tension cable and steel. I still have family in the DFW area- and every time I'm there I still seek out construction sites to see what's the latest and greatest for the TX market. Even up in the NE section of TX where the "black gumbo" is I see post- tension cable slabs for those quonset style barns that house two and three combines along with other farm equipment.