Building too seriously

[Ironcrow]

Everyone's worried about being cold. Don't ya'll know what a coat is anymore?

Does your wife wear a coat in the kitchen because you can't afford to heat the house? Why would I want to wear a coat in my garage if I can easily insulate and heat it?

I'm 'over built' too. Of course, my shop is half buried in a 45 degree slope, so that might have something to do with it...

 

[ZRX61]

I expect a 50 year life out of the structure Howard

In Europe they build structures with the view of passing it down for future generations..

 

[nate379]

I have torn down houses built in the early 1900s and maybe stuff older than that. Square nails, sawdust for insulation if anything at all, etc.

The floor joists in the house I lived in Idaho was 2ft OC 2x6s. The foundation was lava rock stacked up with a bit of concrete to glue it together. The "crawl" space was maybe 20" at the deepest, and most areas even a small kid would have barely fit.

The building practices then vs now, I say now is much better.

 

[ironman2424]

wait a minute. alot of homeowners have blown insul. in their attics. aka = ground up newspaper. and we aint talking about houses on here in the first place aka= GARAGE JOURNAL. Do you live in your gloryiously magnificant garage? most don't. why waste the energy and effort heating/cooling a structure when you dont live in it. some of yall waste more money on BS than is neccessary is all im saying. i live in my house so i heat and cool it. i work in my shop and dont heat/cool it. i have some fans blowing around sure but im not trying to hold it 73 degrees in there like some of you do. americans as a majority have just gotten to lazy and wastful and we wonder why the economy is in a crisis but we keep on wasting like there aint no tomorrow. i'm a born and bred southerner and down in my neck of the woods we still try to live a good life but arent as caughtup with the jonses like alot are. i invest alot in my house not my shop because i live in my house not my shop. if i get to hot or cold i go back in the house for awhile.

 

[walrus]

. Do you live in your gloryiously magnificant garage? most don't. why waste the energy and effort heating/cooling a structure when you dont live in it. .

Come to Maine and tell me you're going to work in the shop with no heat in January or febuary or march or december or even april or november, especially a shop with no insulation. I'll bet you wouldn't last an hour out there

 

[ghnl]

im out for now.

You didn't stay away for long...

 

[GOehm]

I don't post much, but I read a lot of the threads here. The start of this one seemed very.. odd. Antagonistic really. From everything I've seen here, it looks like those with the money to put into to bringing modern technology, old school charm/design, or eco-friendly implementations, do. Those that have a more limited budget bring a mostly functional and DIY vibe. Those that don't care usually don't show up here. After all, how often do you see anyone post about their unmodified, builder created attached garage with only the walls adjacent to living areas sheetrocked. I know: never. Many of the posts are showing innovation or show design queues. It's a sharing forum where many go to get ideas or read up on lessons learned.

To deviate from the current building methods seems to cost more money either way. You're either paying for more uniquely skilled labor and/or materials. But to think it could deteriorate due to neglect? These are the same guys quoting specifications only found on footnotes of product literature. I hardly think that's going to be the case.


Me? No epoxy on my floor. I'm sure it wouldn't withstand the constant abuse of my jackstands and floor jack. But I love to see what other people have done with their own floor! Otherwise, if we all used the same contruction technique that was guaranteed to last 100 years ... well ... that would be a boring world wouldn't it? Now.. let's all go out and buy a nice white Honda Civic and share pictures. Because that's the most sensibile thing, right?

The Internet is a big place. If this isn't your thing, I'm sure something else out there is.

 

[nate379]

Yeah no kidding! Not fun working in -40* temps. Been there, done that.

Come to Maine and tell me you're going to work in the shop with no heat in January or febuary or march or december or even april or november, especially a shop with no insulation. I'll bet you wouldn't last an hour out there

 

[rocketman]

It's all about what you believe in and can or can't afford. If you can afford to do it and believe it's OK, great. If not, don't! End of story.

If those that that think heating or cooling a garage is a waste, nothing anyone can say or do will change their minds. Good for them, I hold no ill will towards them. To each his own, and all that.

I don't have epoxy on my floor, or AC in the garage either. (propane heater in the Winter though) I don't have those things because I think it's wasteful, but because I have greater needs to spend my money on. (most of my "flexible income" goes toward maintaining/improving the 4 wheeled thing IN the garage) If money were not an option... hard to say what I'd do. For me, it's NOT a keeping up with the Jones thing, it's about what I WANT, what I would use comfortably. I could give a rats *** what my neighbor has!

 

[roboref]

To answer the question asked by the OP, I only want to do it once and I obsess over the details, because I won't get another chance to do it right. I do all of my own work because the two or three instances I have used a contractor I have been disappointed by the quality, timeliness or cost, ( so if possible I do my own work). It will take me 3 times as long, but I know it will be the best it can be. I have just completed a 4 year complete remodel of the interior of my home and now it is my turn to do the 2 car garage and outdoor storeroom just the way I want it. I love all the details and innovative ideas that people have come up with for their garages. I just wish I had a 10 car garage size to work with instead of the small 2 car garage I have. So I just have to be super creative with what I have.

Also regarding the Cost/Quality equation all contractors work within. Have you heard of the contractor/building Triangle?

Take the 3 points of a triangle and label them CHEAP/GOOD/FAST. Remember you can have any combination of 2 but you wil never get all three.

 

[Coach James]

You didn't stay away for long...

I'm one of those with a two car attached garage that also doubles as storage space. I WISH I had the money to build a free standing shop with, what I consider, nice features. I like seeing what other folks do as it gicves me ideas of what I can do down the road when I have saved the $$$ to build my own shop. I have saved a lot of the pics people post here under a file called "Ideas for house".


I would still like to read some of the things the original poster dislikes about building practices discussed here other than Tyvek.

Eric, has Raleigh taken over Mebane yet? When I lived in Fayetteville, I always passed through Mebane on my way to State and the Raleigh gun shows.


Coach

 

[LoneGunman]

" why waste the energy and effort heating/cooling a structure when you dont live in it. some of yall waste more money on BS than is neccessary is all im saying."

Because they can if they feel they need or want it and can afford it, why is it any of your business what another man spends? If anything you sound like you are full of envy and jealousy.

I myself like reading about the two car garages, old barns, ETC. The "Taj Mahal" garages don't do much for me, one I can't afford them at this point, two is I don't feel I need them and third I would trash them. The difference is I'm not on here trying to tell people how to spend their money.

 

[ironman2424]

walrus i drive a semi tanker for a living i go to maine alot. all over the east coast for that matter in the dead of winter i work in below freezing conditions day in and day out in the winter time. i survive just fine with a pair of bibs and a chemical slicker suit on. i.ve shoveled a many a yard of snow from in front of my truck just to get back on the road after resting. i just believe alot of americans take alot for granted and have gotten sissyfied with all the modern luxuries in garages when they dont need to. and lonegunman "Because they can if they feel they need or want it and can afford it, why is it any of your business what another man spends? If anything you sound like you are full of envy and jealousy." thats exactly the mentality im talking about. they have the right to do as they want, i have the right to say what i want, and you have the right to disagree. you can't disagree that some people do spend more money on BS than is neccessary because we all do that and if you do disagree with that your a *****. some just go more overboard than others. alot of those that do spend alot on BS can't afford it, otherwise this country wouldnt be going through a major financial/housing crisis.anyway im through with my opinions on this topic so critcize all you like, still ain't gonna change my mind about alot of it. still aint gonna lower the national debt caused by wastful spending.

 

[walrus]

walrus i drive a semi tanker for a living

Most trucks I've ever been in have heat. You spend most of your time working in a heated enviroment, aka the truck. Come to MAine and work outside in the winter, not shoveling snow but lets say changing a clutch on the ground in febuary. I've done it when younger now I'm older and don't want to do that. My building is going to be plain jane with money spent on insulation so I'm not a slave to heating the place. A wood stove and in the future solar heated radiant floors.

 

[stepsideclyde]

Sissyfied....Heat and insulation is for sissys?....WTF?

tc

 

[southpier]

....americans as a majority have just gotten to lazy and wastful and we wonder why the economy is in a crisis but we keep on wasting ....

well, "yes".


isn't that what we have been programmed to do?



c'mon, Bro', drink some of this Kool-Aid (it's only sugar & food coloring) and relax for a while....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kool-Aid

 

[ArthurPE]

personal priorities are determined by the individual, not others...
what one chooses to do with their personal income is nobodies business but theirs (and the wifes )

I'm not sure of the gist of the OP:
-pissed off because it takes business from contractors?
-offended because some are arrogent enough to think THEY can build something even though they are not professional contractors? and end up doing a better job...the audacity...the impudence!
-value judging others? smarter than others?

I think most folks are smart enough to ask for help when they need it....in fact that is what many of the 'insipid' posts the OP is railing about are! this place is a knowledge based/sharing discussion forum...

I work with contractors daily...I was a contractor for 15 years...
some I would trust with anything...
others I wouldn't let assemble a packaged furniture kit...

most I encounter are thru public competetive bidding: and we get the dregs...low balling with hopes of CO's to make it profitable...looking for every opportunity to take advantage of the owner, a government agency...

I love design build or negotiated work...then you can pick and choose a guy who wants to do a good job for the price agreed upon...

so to all you 'over builders' and those who 'think too much' (wow, is there such a thing?)
keep it up, it's fun and informative

 

[ArthurPE]

wait a minute. alot of homeowners have blown insul. in their attics. aka = ground up newspaper. and we aint talking about houses on here in the first place aka= GARAGE JOURNAL. Do you live in your gloryiously magnificant garage? most don't. why waste the energy and effort heating/cooling a structure when you dont live in it. some of yall waste more money on BS than is neccessary is all im saying. i live in my house so i heat and cool it. i work in my shop and dont heat/cool it. i have some fans blowing around sure but im not trying to hold it 73 degrees in there like some of you do. americans as a majority have just gotten to lazy and wastful and we wonder why the economy is in a crisis but we keep on wasting like there aint no tomorrow. i'm a born and bred southerner and down in my neck of the woods we still try to live a good life but arent as caughtup with the jonses like alot are. i invest alot in my house not my shop because i live in my house not my shop. if i get to hot or cold i go back in the house for awhile.

some people live is shacks and shyte in buckets...what's your point?

that YOU feel that people waste their $$$/time/effort on things YOU believe are not important?

yes, everyone has the right to opinion, but not to judge or criticize...
opinions = assholes = everyone has one and they all stink...

imho, anyone who would not educate themselves so that they wouldn't have to waste their lives driving a truck is a loser...now, that's an 'opinion'...is it valid? did it need to be expressed ('expressed' also means squeezing bile from a dogs **** glands, about the same thing as 'expressing' an opinion, lol) I say it with sarcasm/hyperbole to make a point...the world needs truck drivers, and the world is better for people who delve into the 'useless'...like artists, scientists, etc., and yes, even folks who go 'overboard' in pursuit of their hobbies...

people who live in glass garages shouldn't throw stones...
live and let live...

 

[Chris Adams]

wait a minute. alot of homeowners have blown insul. in their attics. aka = ground up newspaper. and we aint talking about houses on here in the first place aka= GARAGE JOURNAL. Do you live in your gloryiously magnificant garage? most don't. why waste the energy and effort heating/cooling a structure when you dont live in it. some of yall waste more money on BS than is neccessary is all im saying. i live in my house so i heat and cool it. i work in my shop and dont heat/cool it. i have some fans blowing around sure but im not trying to hold it 73 degrees in there like some of you do. americans as a majority have just gotten to lazy and wastful and we wonder why the economy is in a crisis but we keep on wasting like there aint no tomorrow. i'm a born and bred southerner and down in my neck of the woods we still try to live a good life but arent as caughtup with the jonses like alot are. i invest alot in my house not my shop because i live in my house not my shop. if i get to hot or cold i go back in the house for awhile.

What a load of BS. Come work in my garage in the summer. It's only about 175 near the rafters.

A nice toasty 120-125 at my tool boxes.

Exactly how long can you work in that? Fully dressed?
A fan can lower it to 'felt' 100, sure, but the wind dehydrates you even faster.

I'm disabled, can't take the heat as well as some young people, perhaps I should just accept that and stay in bed, or kill myself? No wait, the Euro method is have my doctor kill me... Very progressive.

If you live somewhere with a very benign climate it's easy to sneer at people living somewhere the weather can kill you.

Oh, and in the winter the inside of the garage goes down to 20 sometimes.
So you would work in 20 degree weather with no heater? With the door open?
BS.

I like to keep my garage about 80, with a swamp cooler. But I have to have insulation along the sun wall, and big door because without that it is impossible to cool the garage below 95 most days.

And it stays hot till way past midnight, for those people who suggest night working.
I used to, when I was younger and fit, work from 11 PM to 2 AM in my garage to ‘beat the heat’.
Can’t do that anymore.

How about you take your progressive idiocy to the political forums where it belongs.

 

[Gus_Mahn]

I can tell you that if you live in a colder climate, you must maintain some level of warmth to prevent rusting of precision tools (Mills, lathes, micrometers...). 15-20F above ambient temperature is typically enough. It would be wasteful not to install some minimum level of insulation in this case. I agree that if you don't heat your garage very often, it takes a loong time to recoup your insulation money.

I don't understand attacking people for making THEIR garage a place where THEY want to spend time. How does that effect anyone? I like looking at Taj Garages, but mine will never be like that. Mine's a functioning shop, and I have waaay to much stuff to hide it all.

 

[bkg]

Personally, I think the OP is correct in many ways.

And it's interesting to see how many people are taking his perspective as personal attacks.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I've always gotten a chuckle out of hearing how contractors try to tell the owner what he really needs, when the owner has researched the death out of it and usually knows more than the contractor. Rarely do contractors have facts and numbers to back up their assertions, usually just gut feelings and past experience (which is not all bad mind you) but sometimes you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.

My odd experience was with a door contractor. I had stopped by a large, reputable garage door contractor (An Amaar dealer) and asked them to take a look at my newly erected steel building and give me an estimate on a 12w x 14 h sectional garage door and a 10x10 sheet roll up door. The supervisor lived close by but it took a couple of weeks of badgering to get him to stop on his way home from work. He finally stopped and had a look and then I had to call later to get the estimate, he never bothered to call me. He quoted me about $2700 for the large sectional door and that was all stamped metal panels. I had asked for glass panels, and without missing a beat, he told me that "I couldn't afford that". End of that.

I found a local guy who supposedly was good and he came by and quoted me $1200 for the door with three glass panels and four metal panels (I had stated I wanted all glass). He said he could go two more glass panels for $150 each but I couldn't do all glass, it wasn't strong enough (never did figure that one out, I can point out dozens of tire shops, jiffy lubes, and fire stations with all glass doors, but I was agreeable to go with the five panels of glass and a metal panel top and bottom. I ended up showing the guy how to do some of the install myself. Turns out he was good on residential doors, but large commercial doors he couldn't quite figure out. He wanted to weld the L brackets that hold the tracks to the door jamb, as he couldn't figure out how to bolt them on. I've never installed a door, but I figured it out real quick and showed him how I expected him to do it, and he did. Its not that he was lazy, he just couldn't figure out that parts of the track and brackets had to be disassembled, installed and then reassembled.

Anyhow, I got my door (Wilson brand) for $1500 plus $500 for the opener, and the 10x10 roll up for $500 (all in year 2000 dollars)

I'm still mad for someone telling me I couldn't afford something!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Charles

 

[Justanoldguy]

In Europe they build structures with the view of passing it down for future generations..

I thought a generation was classed as 25 years.
So 2 generation there ..

 

[Chris Adams]

I thought a generation was classed as 25 years.
So 2 generation there ..

Actually, a generation has been 20 years, till just lately, now some are saying 25. If people keep living longer and having kids later, it may be 40 someday.

 

[Chris Adams]

Personally, I think the OP is correct in many ways.

And it's interesting to see how many people are taking his perspective as personal attacks.

Um, most the 'personal' responses are to another poster, who is making it personal. Note who is being replied to in most the responses.

Plus, if you tell people they shouldn't be allowed to heat, cool, insulate their garage, that's pretty personal.

The OP had some interesting points, I agree.

The whole thing is, when you set out to tell someone you 'can't, shouldn't, mustn’t, do what you want when what you want is legal, moral and often enjoyable, you are already setting a combative tone.

You may not respond to this post. I am ordering you.
See?

Or how about;
YOU shouldn't have a computer. YOU shouldn't be allowed to post as I see no reason for YOU to have a computer, or to post.
What? Are you taking it personal???

If someone still doesn't get it, some other examples;
I feel organized sports are a waste of time, money, resources. So YOU shouldn't be allowed to have football games.

TV is a waste of time, money, resources. It serves even less purpose than organized sports... So YOU shouldn’t be allowed to own a TV.

Or, from a thread in another forum; You shouldn't be allowed to read. Since the stuff you read isn't approved by the government, it should not exist. He was serious as a heart attack.

When someone tells you to cease and desist, because in his opinion, you are wasting your time, it isn't about you, it's about him.
But it's darn hard not to take that personally.

 

[Justanoldguy]

And on another note.. lol

When people say "such and such" is the BEST (product/service)..

I figure, unless they have tried and tested every single brand/service and evaluated them, then what they say can be taken with a grain of salt.

The old adage.. "one mans rubbish is another mans treasure"




.

 

[Racecarl]

Hello. My name is Carl and I am building too seriously. I have been building too seriously for nearly two years.... I have really enjoyed reading all the posts. I am on a limited budget and have opted to spend most of my money on materials and do the labor myself.

If I wanted to freeze while laying on a creeper under a tractor, I would go to work. I want the shop I build to be warm and comfortable. If I can put a little more effort or insulation into the slab or stub wall in the interest of keeping more heat inside, I am going to do it. I am going to put in a 6" slab inside. It might be overkill, but I have worked on cracked, uneven floors and I didn't like it. Do it right the first time!

I am 43 and I figure on tinkering around on my hobbies for AT LEAST another 40 years, God willing. I get just ONE shot at building a personal shop and I will do it right, to the best of my ability. I might have an antique John Deere tractor in the corner disassembled for an overhaul. Some friends might want to get together to jam and I want my shop to be warm enough to play musical instruments comfortably. I want my kids to bring their friends over just to hang out. I want MY friend to come over just to hang out!

I could have hired a contractor to throw up a 24 X 30 metal building and I would have been done with this well over a year ago. I guess I am stubborn and prideful. I want to be able to drive by my shop and see what I built.

 

[Justanoldguy]

Hello. My name is Carl and I am building too seriously. I have been building too seriously for nearly two years.... I have really enjoyed reading all the posts. I am on a limited budget and have opted to spend most of my money on materials and do the labor myself.

If I wanted to freeze while laying on a creeper under a tractor, I would go to work. I want the shop I build to be warm and comfortable. If I can put a little more effort or insulation into the slab or stub wall in the interest of keeping more heat inside, I am going to do it. I am going to put in a 6" slab inside. It might be overkill, but I have worked on cracked, uneven floors and I didn't like it. Do it right the first time!

I am 43 and I figure on tinkering around on my hobbies for AT LEAST another 40 years, God willing. I get just ONE shot at building a personal shop and I will do it right, to the best of my ability. I might have an antique John Deere tractor in the corner disassembled for an overhaul. Some friends might want to get together to jam and I want my shop to be warm enough to play musical instruments comfortably. I want my kids to bring their friends over just to hang out. I want MY friend to come over just to hang out!

I could have hired a contractor to throw up a 24 X 30 metal building and I would have been done with this well over a year ago. I guess I am stubborn and prideful. I want to be able to drive by my shop and see what I built.

Totally agree mate.
Build what you want and how you want it.
Stuff the rest....

 

[ZRX61]

I thought a generation was classed as 25 years.
So 2 generation there ..

In which case my parents home is a 6 generation house...

 

[malodin]

I sure upset a lot of folks who have embraced the new and "better". But remember that the Romans thought lead plumbing was the cats *** a few centuries ago.

And your the Contractor who sold it to them and installed it...Remember that!



with that said i had a really long winded post all typed up then had to log in and lost it all so i will try to summerize what i said.

First off GJ is the place to get idea's thoughts opinions and everything else that is what it was designed for, no one comes here reads the first post on a question asked then goes out and does it, that would be stupid!

Second your posts on tyvek being the cause of houses failing is wrong, tyvek is not the problem it is the owner and lack of maintenance. You bring up caulking being cracked allowing water to get behind the walls and "molding and destroying the walls" in a bathroom where someone has not recaulked there tub and the vinyl flooring is all moldy and peeled up and bubbly do you tell the owner oh yah you shouldnt have installed the vinyl flooring only tile will not do this? I dont think even you would do that, that would be just dishonest so dont come one here and tell everyone that tyvek is the problem it is not, the problem is lack of maintenance. with that being said that is what GJ is here for, so that some home owner can come on here and say hey guys i have a garage that was wrapped in tyvek and now i am getting a really soft spot in the outside wall and there is a bubble forming, then one of us chimes in oh you probably got water under the outer board and it soaked into the board. then said homeowner says what would cause that and another GJ member chimes in and says probably caulking that was cracked and not maintaned, said homeowner says thanks guys i really apprecaite that and goes on to call around a contractor and says i need to have one of my outer walls replaced contractor says what makes you think that, owner says well i had a crack in my caulking that allowed water under it and now its soft, now contractor knows owner is informed and doesnt come out and say something like "you will have to replace the whole side of the wall"

GJ is here so that people can be informed, show there workmanship off or whatever else they want. Just like it is here so that you can get on your soap box and ***** about people doing there own work rather than hiring you, because more than anything i think that is what it boils down to because no matter what you say about food chain and being able to pick and choose, your right you as a contractor can pick and choose who you want to work with if you dont like the person or think they will be to picky you can say no thanks, but the way the economy is right now you probably shoulldnt be to picky.

 

[nate379]

The economy thing hasn't hit too hard around here. I don't know too many folks that have lost their jobs other than very niche stuff that probably wouldn't have been around in 5-6 years anyhow.

Contractors are PLENTY busy.

 

[malodin]

The economy thing hasn't hit too hard around here. I don't know too many folks that have lost their jobs other than very niche stuff that probably wouldn't have been around in 5-6 years anyhow.

Contractors are PLENTY busy.

thats because there is an equal amount of contractors for the jobs up there.

down here there is/was an abundance of contractors because the projects were booooooming not 2yrs ago, now they are not so booming.

 

[tcianci]

Hi all! I have been laying low for a while and watching the posts. Things have been taking a very interesting turn! While I have been critical of some building practices and materials, I hope no one ever got the idea that you can over insulate a building or that you are excessive for heating or installing AC in your garage. How many of us would be happy if our employers thought heat or AC was too excessive for our workplaces. I guess you can over insulate if the money you spend on the insulation and associated construction will never result in a foreseeable payback period. But it still won't "hurt" the building.
I was hoping that this post would be mostly about the technical aspects of garage construction and not to criticize others for the way they have outfitted their buildings.

It could be that we are so used to seeing a garage as just an auxillary building and not part of our homes that some think they don't deserve to be as finessed as the living quarters or our homes. When a movie buff installs a home theatre, we think sure, he loves his flicks, why not. A garage is the same to some of us. Besides, I'm payin the taxes on it, slick or shabby.

 

[ironman2424]

ok i've caused enough contraversy for one week. honestly i just wanted to see how many people would turn on me and how long it would take. i truthfully am all for insulation and HVAC in garages. mine has it. i just wanted to spice the forum up alittle. it had gotten sort of boring and i figured i'd ruffle a few feathers and wake yall up. glad to see everyones alive again. ya'll dont stay too mad at me i really am a pretty good dude. those of you who stuck to your guns, did what i was hoping you would. Don't ever let someones opinion sway you away from doing it the way you want it done. i,m glad nobody agreed with me cause i was wrong about everything i said. what i said was intentional but should'nt have been taken serious. ya,ll be good and/or at it. imma browse around for awhile.

 

[Justanoldguy]

No wind ups allowed until you have 50 posts.

I'm just biding my time here...


.

 

[porschedude996TT]

ok i've caused enough contraversy for one week. honestly i just wanted to see how many people would turn on me and how long it would take. i truthfully am all for insulation and HVAC in garages. mine has it. i just wanted to spice the forum up alittle. it had gotten sort of boring and i figured i'd ruffle a few feathers and wake yall up. glad to see everyones alive again. ya'll dont stay too mad at me i really am a pretty good dude. those of you who stuck to your guns, did what i was hoping you would. Don't ever let someones opinion sway you away from doing it the way you want it done. i,m glad nobody agreed with me cause i was wrong about everything i said. what i said was intentional but should'nt have been taken serious. ya,ll be good and/or at it. imma browse around for awhile.

I don't appreciate being a lab rat! If you can't come here honestly...

 

[tcianci]

Good for you Ironman, we all need our chains yanked from time to time!

 

[ironman2424]

hey Justanoldguy we are close enough to 50 posts what tha heck wind it up for me. and tcianci, thanks for lettin me wake ya up some lol..... and as for mister lab rat in cali, you havent had anything to say untill now so how did i use you as a lab specimen seeing as you've not responded to the OP untill now? dang chiil out some, smoke a big cuban, have some CROWN-N-COKE and enjoy the He-ll outta that silver bullet you got parked in your garage. cause it's a nice ride. but it is still just an overpriced VW. you know i had to go there lol

 

[ItBurnsWhenIPee]

I'm the king of "overkill it as far as you can afford" most of the time, and my friends love me for it. I've got tools for just about everything to do with a house or a car and the will to use them. If I need a workbench that'll hold 400 lbs, I build one that'll hold 1500. If I need 20 gallons, I buy 40. You get the idea...I think that a lot of folks here are like me in that respect. Which is why I like it here

Heat and air are essential to me in a working environment. Even if it's just a "hobby" that I do on the weekends. I'm not going to go out there and pull a transmission when it's 12 degrees F. in there. That wouldn't make me happy, and when your hobby doesn't bring you joy, it's no longer a hobby.

As for the contractors in here thinking they're going to tell others how to build...Bite my shiny metal ***. You aren't in charge. I'm the one with the money, I'm the one in charge, period. If I tell you I want 4x12 studs in my walls with R-9million value insulation in there, you'll take your happy *** down to NASA and start picking up shuttle tiles to cover my project.

Not that I hire out much of anything. Nothing most residential contractors do is outside the realm of reason for an enterprising soul with a nice bag of tools and a strong will to make it happen.

 

[Justanoldguy]

Well I can see why you would do the work yourself.
No self respecting contractor would lower themselves to be treated like ****.
Good luck anyway.