building without permit

[knightryda01]

just wondered how many of you have built without permit. I can't see pulling a permit to install a door or putting a bigger window in. Just wondering. I've even had guys tell me they never pulled a permit for building a carport off their buildings so I was just like wow... lol

 

[Wuaname]

Watch out .. Now you will get a bunch saying thats not right! Lol

 

[CJM8515]

Depends on who might see the work being performed. My father is an idiot and insisted we finish the basement, we have a low ceiling height b/c the builder cheaped out) so the ceiling is only 6ft 6in. No permits, wired into existing stuff, paneled and 2x4 walls with some insulation. About the only thing done right is the vented furnace closet. When we sell I want to see just how it goes..guy I know had to rip out his basement cause it wasnt on the plans and no permits when he sold the house.

Im not getting a permit for a shed, nor a small interior remodel

 

[The Cobbler]

depends. A friend in the country has done lots sans permit. built a 2 car garage, built a full second story on his story & half house. property is hidden from the road.

Living in the city would be a bit more difficult. I built a shed without permit, but the garage build is getting a permit ( unfortunately) I hope they don't get their ******* in a knot over the oversized shed

 

[RECox286]

If you don't get a permit you are setting yourself up for a bite in the ****.

Uncle Bob

 

[Zeke]

If I'm not adding to the footprint or changing something structural the AJ can pound sand. And I was a builder/remodler that pulled many permits and pretty much always got along with inspectors. City building depts not so much. So I prefer to leave them out. Bloodsuckers at the least.

 

[htchevyii]

In my area, the county accessor uses satellite images to check for additions, I'm not sure if the info gets passed on to the planning dept or not? If I'm not changing the footprint no way am I getting a permit, although everything will be done to code. The worst thing is that it should be disclosed if you sell the place that the work was done without a permit. I know a guy that does concrete and he said that if he does work without a permit, he takes pictures of everything before the pour incase it becomes an issue later.

 

[7echo]

"City building depts...Bloodsuckers at the least. "

Permit issues got bad in our area when the economy tanked. It is really only about the money.They want the permit fees. Technically, you are supposed to pull a permit to do even minor things, like change a water heater or toilet.

Every area is different. The AHJ can do whatever they want.

 

[A_Pmech]

What's a permit?

My county is unincorporated and we work hard to keep it that way.

 

[saltygills]

I've been deliberating on this for a couple months now. Building a 30x60 and puttng a mobile home on an acre of property. I decided to go ahead and build everything to code since we are already installing new city water and a new power pole, meter, etc...I had to go up almost 3 ft for the shop pad to be at proper elevation. I could have left it where it is but I would have issues with electrical and water being that everything will be inspected. The neighbor (an inlaw) has the same size shop and it is no doubt below elevation, but it was probably built sans permit and many years ago when there was less traffic in the area. It ***** on my end because I've got to do a hell of a lot more work but it's good to know I shouldn't have any issues in the long run..

 

[xyster101]

Here's a quick story:
My grandfather built his house in 1950's from the ground up with a building mortgage on Long Island. He passed in 1992. Recently my grandmother needed to downsize and moved to Florida and the house went on the market. House went into contract and then the trouble started. Grandpa never had the final inspection on the garage permit back in 1950 and he never had a permit to enclose/heat the breezeway going from the house to the garage. It took around 2 months and close to $10k to get it all settled through the town with an arbitrator working for my grandma since she was in FL so the lending bank would approve the new mortgage for the buyers.
For the cost and small hassle, get one for major projects like additions, pools, and garages. I would not pull a permit for new doors or windows.

 

[Fyrme]

I look at permitting like this. If the improvement significantly changes the value of your property or is used to house stuff with significant value (think insurance coverage here), is used as a source of creating income, and/or you live in a residential neighborhood with a HOA, or you are doing all the work your self and have NO idea of what you are doing, then you should get proper permitting.
If you are building a small shed to house your garden tools, or installing new ceiling fans (and know what you are doing), putting up a new fence, or installing a new water heater (and know what you are doing), then the city/county can pound sand.

With that said, I did pull a permit to build my shop for some of the reasons stated above. If I built my shop without a permit, I could run into problems insuring the building. And even if they did insure it in the beginning without asking about said permit, and it burns to the ground while working on my friends '67 split window sitting inside, they could easily say "sorry, you built it without proper permits and inspections. So we won't pay for your loss". Another problem I avoided by going ahead with the permit was learning of a set back rule I was unaware of. Had I built it where I originally intended, It would have been to close to the front property line. This would not have caused an issue right away, but if I was to sell my place or my kids sell it after I die, they could require it to be torn down.
And on a final note, When I did pull my permits, I had to buy three. A footing, structural, and electrical. I didn't however buy one for the slab. Why? because I thought that was quite ridiculous. The other three, I can see saving my **** down the road. The first trip the inspector made when he came out to look at my footings, he asked if I was going to pour a slab. I told him I was undecided when that was going to actually take place, so I didn't purchase the permit at that time. He plainly told me, "don't waste your money on a slab permit for a shop.

 

[Lbcwanabe]

It's all about taxes

 

[Thumper68]

In '95 I put a mobile home on our lake place with out a permit got caught and had to pay the fine still makes me chuckle permit fee was $75 fine was $50 so I saved $25 by not getting a permit. On the shop I pulled the permit county guy came out and looked at the set back when I asked him when to call him for the other inspections ie what kind of lead time he needed slab, framing, framing etc he just laughed said it was my garage and if it fell down it would be my fault, same on the elec I called and asked about the permit and they told me that if it burned down it was my problem no permit or inspection needed for a private garage/shop.

All they wanted was their fee. so much for big brother watching out for us.

In town they want to check everything, right now I'm contemplating adding a half bath to the first floor still haven't decided if I'm going to pull a permit for that or not.

 

[ToolmanGary]

Can you try the Ag card

https://www.michfb.com/MI/Farm_Busi...es_and_Environment/Building_Permit_Exemption/

 

[69gp]

Its at your risk to do so. Depending on the inspection department they may not really care about the small stuff but when its structural they may want to have a look at things.

I did get caught once for adding a sun-room and 2 1/2 car garage to my 2 year old house. The reason I did not pull a permit was due to my wife having an issue with the building inspector when I put the house up. To make the story short when putting the house up the building inspector stopped by my house because he had questions about my front entrance stairs. On that day my wife was home from work morning sickness so she was not in a good mode to start. My wife knows nothing about building other than nailing sub floor down. That's when you had to do it by hand. But anyways the inspector comes to the door and wants to come in and speak to her about the railing on the temporary stairs. She asked that he come back when I would be home. He decided that he would try and come in and my wife slams the door on his foot and would not let up. Shes freaking out yelling and screaming while hes trying to push the door in to get his foot out. Well my dad who was a captain in the city PD where I live came by and seen the going on's needless to say my wife was not the only one having a bad day after that incident.

So needless to say when I went to do my additions I was not going to get permits and deal with all the **** again. after all the work was done another inspector came by and wanted to see the building permit. Told him I don't have one and I am not going to get one. fast forward a couple of weeks and there is a sheriff at my door with a cease and desist order. I ignored the order since all work was now complete. I did work with one of the building inspectors for a few years before and explained to him why I did not want a permit. it was a lot of Bullcrap.

I finally did get a permit for the work only because of my homeowners insurance would not cover me if something should happen with the work that was done.

if I had to do it over again I would have pulled the permit but at the time it was the point of it.

 

[G19Tony]

I just built a 20 x 29 Tuff Shed garage. I pulled permits and had to get a variance too. What a pain. I'm putting all my permits and inspections into a binder. It should be about 1-2 in thick, and added probably $2500 to the project. A pain in the *** to be sure. But, if I decide to sell the joint someday, I will be glad I did it legit.

 

[Wanna Ride]

Some here are comparing apples to oranges. I see you list Michigan in your info. Not sure if where you're at is rural, urban, or somewhere in between. But it varies greatly on what's required in different areas.

If you can, contact the local agency that has jurisdiction in these matters ,and anonymously inquire. No sense in waking up a sleeping giant, just yet.

But to give you some sort of an idea, I too live in the midwest, but in a very rural area. About 18 years ago, I initiated the ground work for my garage. I contacted the local village board and made the necessary inquiries. It was all pretty informal, to say the least. To be on the safe side, I also checked with the county offices, and they said I all I had to satisfy, was the village board's requirements. The particular person I had to deal with was the village treasurer... which happened to be a family relative. Paid a $25 for a building permit, and that's all I was required to do.

Nothing else. No approval process, no initial inspection, no electrical, no gas, no structural, no ground inspections, nothing... ever. The only time it gets slightly more involved, is if you are not doing the work yourself. Fortunately, I've worked in the trades for most of my life, so I'm very familiar with codes and procedures, so I adhered to those on every aspect. A close friend (who also lives about an 1/8th mile away) works for the gas and power company, so he showed me what I had to do for the gas line into the garage, and the connection for electricity. My garage is 40' x 30', has 9' ceilings, two 7' x 8' overhead doors, gas furnace, and 200 amp service. Both the gas and the electricity are independent of the house.

But I would imagine it would be pretty easy for some hack to throw up a building around here. Then again, maybe they know who the hacks are and enforce limitations and restrictions a little tighter on those guys.

My point is; it greatly varies what you are required to do from one area to another. In metropolitan areas, I know for a fact, it's much tighter. In rural areas, it's much more relaxed.

 

[Jvvmusme]

In spanish we say ; " it's better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission"

 

[chipper]

I live on a corner lot and needed a permit to build a privacy fence but all ready had an existing small picket fence...so they said I needed to pay for a survey $300 no way the fence had nothing to do withany of my neighbors property just the easment for the drain ditch ...I just built it on nights and weekends and that was 5 years ago and no problems I was nervous during the build though

 

[theangryman]

If you can benefit from my experience, let me tell you what happened to me.
Where I live, doors and windows can be replaced providing they don't require changes to the frame, seems like everything else needs a permit. I installed a 10X10 shed around 96. After 3-4 years, decided it wasn't big enough and added 8X10 on to it. Even had code enforcement look at it and comment how nice it looked. Several years later, next door neighbor turns into jackass of the century. Complains about EVERYTHING. Turns out, shed was to big, had to tear it down. Now the fun begins. I decide I need a garage. With the help of a general contractor, I start building a 22 X 24 X 18 high garage. Because I did excavation and other parts, I was the one who pulled the permits. ( becomes an issue later). In the process, one of the subcontractors installing siding gets to close to a 13.2 KV power line while putting up a stilt and was killed instantly. Needless to say, I had over 50 people in my yard between Police, Fire, EMTs, coroner, power company, code enforcement, you name it. Several lawyers there too. During the subsequent investigation, OSHA had a real problem with me pulling the permit. Kept on me about ME being the supervisor, directing the work. Had me nervous for a couple of months. Ends up, OSHA finds no fault on my end or the General contractor. I did pull a permit, contacted ONE CALL and the utilities to notify them of work was going to be performed. Code enforcement inspected and O.K. d the site prior to pouring footer. That was over two years ago.
Now, two weeks before the statute of limitations runs out, the family files a lawsuit. Suing for 10 million. I shudder to think how bad things would be if I DID NOT pull a permit. For the $35 per $1000 of work, it is well worth it to protect yourself. Also, my homeowners insurance quadrupled since I reported it to them.
So unless it is something small and discrete, I would definitely get a permit.
You don't want to be in a similar situation.
Take it for what its worth.

 

[ddawg16]

just wondered how many of you have built without permit. I can't see pulling a permit to install a door or putting a bigger window in. Just wondering. I've even had guys tell me they never pulled a permit for building a carport off their buildings so I was just like wow... lol

Larger window? Unless it's real obvious it's not the original, no big deal.

Door? Might be a bigger issue. The permit might be $20-$30....at that price and the no hassle factor...worth it.

Some areas allow car ports without a permit if they meet certain requirements/sizes.

Utility buildings? Almost all cities allow for a 10x10 without a permit. Especially if it's not permanent.

On the flip side....say you're a home buyer and the seller is telling you they remodeled the kitchen....but didn't pull permits. How do you know they did the plumbing and electrical right? What if they have the wrong size wire? What if the drains are the wrong size?

 

[Falcon67]

"City building depts...Bloodsuckers at the least. "

Permit issues got bad in our area when the economy tanked. It is really only about the money.They want the permit fees. Technically, you are supposed to pull a permit to do even minor things, like change a water heater or toilet.

Every area is different. The AHJ can do whatever they want.

Not always. We have a ton of unpermitted structures here and who knows what else. The City Manager is only interested in trying to get people to build safe and reliable whatever because the alternative can be bad as we all know. It may also help property values because unpermitted structures can well be **** and everybody wants some **** carport or half-assed garage next door. It's $50 here and the CITY PAYS for the inspections, which cost $50 per trip for the inspector to drive out here. The shop required three inspections and the inspector was willing to combine the last two to save the city $50. When we changed out the windows in the house (HD contractor), no permit was required. When I did the reno on the old house, no permit required - no new sewer or water connection.

Yea, it's a little different here.

 

[jake00]

Now, two weeks before the statute of limitations runs out, the family files a lawsuit. Suing for 10 million.
Take it for what its worth.

Did they win?

 

[waltmcq]

If you're one of those guys that people like you can get away with say gutting the main floor of your house, rewiring, replumbing from the water meter and changing out windows.

 

[CNGsaves]

It all depends where you're at like other GJer's have said. Big cities will have most stringent rules and high permit/fee costs while many rural areas have very lax environment. Cities are "trying to CYA" and not allow substandard work, but many have morphed into profit centers of tax/fee every little thing.

Look at prior GJ thread that had details of Orlando, FL and holy **** they have permit fee for EACH outlet installed, EACH switch, etc. Massive avoidance of over-reaching permit fee/tax surely is happening in Orlando !!

Here in middle America, it's pretty reasonable and generally best to get permit for anything structural, new addition/construction, and improved electrical. Forgot to mention also get permit for anything significant for natural gas/propane lines as faulty install could bite you real bad.

 

[Koken]

Last year I pulled a permit (owner/builder) to install a wood fence on both sides of my property (sides only, no gates, just a straight run, 220 feet total, two inspections - holes and final). I already have a fence across the front and back. Permit cost $300.00. When I questioned the cost, no one could explain or give me a break-down of the charges, only attitude. The girl said "take it or leave it". I pulled the same permit approximately three years prior for the front (concrete wall w/gates) and it was only $50.00. Even though it is highway robbery, it is still better to pull a permit.

FYI, Anytime a contractor pulls a permit. Make sure the permit is closed out prior to any final payment. Especially after disasters, states are flooded with the "contractors from hell". They often pull permits, sometimes under another contractor, and never close out the permit. Some states allow qualified, licensed, private inspectors, to do inspections. In this case, you still want to verify the permit is closed with the city/county, because some shady contractors will hand you a signed off permit with any Joe-blow's signature. By the time you figure it out, which is years later and you are selling the home, they are gone, and you end up having to hire another contractor to verify the work and close it out.

 

[zekeymonkey]

One of the great things about living where I do. As long as it's not a commercial building and isn't a septic tank, the county doesn't require permits.

 

[volleyball]

Asking this question is like how much can you eat. It is all a personal situation.
I can see where putting in a wider window would require a permit. Making sure a proper header has been installed.
Stuff involving contractors should be permitted. Stuff you do yourself, it depends.
I had one situation where I was doing something minor and checked to see if I needed a permit. The city said yes and it was expensive. Lots of things tacked on. Including a sidewalk fee. I asked about that and they said it was for possible damage to sidewalks due to heavy truck traffic during construction. I said the total weight was less than 100 lbs and I would be carrying it. I also mentioned that they need to actually install a sidewalk as there were none anywhere on my street, to get damaged. I opted to not get a permit.
I can see in any high density area that permits are much more critical. You don't want your neighbor building over the entire property or onto yours. Those areas tend to experience blight.

I agree with picture taking, every step of the way. Especially anything below grade. If they come along and ask about footings, you can show pictures. That way they cannot easily make you tear it out just to check.
If you finish space in your house, I am not sure they can make you tear it out. You probably never paid taxes on it so you may not be able to claim it when selling.
If it was done decades ago, I think a decent lawyer would be able to get it grandfathered in. Make it expensive for the government to try to collect. You just have to decide what solution works best for you.

 

[jb3]

Another vote for figure out whats required locally and do everything legally.

I had a guy do an upstairs laudry room on a house for me. He was the general contractor and i failed to actually look at or ask about permitting, so of course he didnt get one . Plumbing ,wiring, and some new roof ,the job was done. (Enclosed a porch to make the laundry)

Come to sell the house 3 years later, all the drywall has to be torn out for the inspections that never happened to be complete. Expensive issue.

 

[MagKarl]

I built a shed without a permit, then about 5 years later the county found out. They bought software that compares old and new satellite images. Cost me more money and a ton of time/hassle after the fact. All passed inspection with no violations, but never again. New shop at my new house is fully permitted.

 

[venturesomerite]

Not gonna lie, had no idea something like windows or doors needed permits. Thought it was more structural kinda ****. Well, guess that answers your questions, lol!

However, I'm envious of the unincorp places, I kinda have a frontier, it's your land do whatever you want on it and everyone else can piss off kinda outlook.

 

[theangryman]

It has just started with deposing parties and motions. A ton of back and forth between lawyers. Most likely, another two to three tears until it is over. (if I am Lucky....)

 

[Disturbed]

Built a 24x40 shop at my old house about 8 years ago. Had to get a variance in order to build it where I wanted to. Once the variance was approved I asked about building permits.

At that time local code was if it was under 1000 square feet and unoccupied no building permit was required. I asked the code enforcement officer who I called for inspections, he told me if there was no permit required there was no inspections required, not even for electricity. I must have asked 100 times over the course of planning about permits and inspections, he finally gave me a signed letter stating no permit or inspections were required.

I was told it must all be built to code but it was up to me to follow the code. Never had an issue with insuring the shop after i was built, and the insurance company knew I built it myself. Just sold the house about a month ago, no issues with the shop.

I had also gutted and remodeled that entire house, only permits and inspections needed were for the new 200A electrical service and the city gas line installation. The same code enforcement officer told me NOT to connect anything to the new breaker panel until it was inspected. He said the inspector would need to inspect anything connected to the box when he did the inspection to have the utility company to hook up the new power. If nothing was connected to the box all he would need to inspect would be from the breaker panel to the weather head. Had no issues with any of the work I did to the house during the sale of the house.

Cliff Notes: I did A LOT of work without permits at my old house because they were not required. Every area is different. Best thing to do is check what the code is where you live.

 

[theangryman]

Getting that signed letter was a very smart move. As I was reading, I'm thinkin get that in writing. Problem is, there is nothing to compel them to give you a signed statement. It was fortunate that he did.
I find that around here (suburbs of Philadelphia) bottom line is this. You can most likely get away with a lot providing there are no issues. If you have a nosy or vindictive neighbor, all bets are off. Also, if you don't see eye to eye with the code enforcement person, they can break your stones all day long and get paid for doing so.
I agree with everyone as to if I replace an existing fence, why should I be required to get a permit? I m using the same holes...... it is ridiculous and a money making scheme most of the time but if you wind up in a wrongful death lawsuit or forced to spend a ton of money to resolve an issue before you sell your house, the money for the permit is nothing in comparison.

 

[aandpdan]

I got caught not pulling a permit to take down a brick chimney, about 2x2' on the back of my roof - not easy to see from the road or the neighbors.

When I bought my house a few years back it was obvious the boiler was on it's last legs, so was the chimney. It was cracked and you could shift it just by grabbing it. So I decided to go with a direct vent boiler and eliminate the chimney.

My buddy and I took it down on a Friday, all the way to the basement floor. On Monday morning my contractor and I went down to pull a permit for the new boiler install. As I walk into the office, on the back wall, is a list of "un-permitted work." My address is about 3 up from the bottom.

I asked the building inspector about it and he, without batting an eye says "you took down a chimney, you need a permit."

They didn't charge a fine since I was getting a permit for the boiler.. I did have to pay an additional $30 for a "building" permit in addition to the gas permit fees.

From then on all other projects at the house begin with a stop at the building dept.

 

[Paultergeist]

Fascinating thread......and such matters have been on my mind many times. In truth, I guess I have been pretty lucky not to have gotte *zinged* by the city for the work I have done on my own house, but most of that has simply been interior repair/remodel (i.e. "like replaced by like.")

A nearby neighbor, however, had a different experience. His cast-iron plumbing main line (the drain to the sewer main) was very old and rusted-out from the inside. He needed to replace it. The kicker is that he went to the city prior to even putting a shovel in the ground and asked about permit requirements. He was told that he did not need a permit if all he was doing was replacing a worn-out component -- there was no change to design, square-footage, structure, etc. Away he goes digging up the main line, breaking it up in pieces and replacing the main line with 4" ABS. Rubberized clamped fittings (i.e., "Fernco-type") married the new to the old. All seems to be going well, and he fills in the trench to complete the job.

Fast-foward a couple of weeks, and he gets a threatening note in the mail. The city included a sattelite photo of the trench -- stating (now) that a permit was required but not acquired. My neighbor protested and cited verbal dialogs with city hall representatives which told him he did not need a permit. These dialogs were confirmed, but it didn't matter -- the city worker was wrong, and now the city wanted the permit and the fess that go along with it. Even though the mistake was on the city's end, there was talk of enforcing not only permit and inspection fees but also fines. In the end, my neighbor only had to pay for the permit and the inspection -- not the fine -- but the issue could have easily gone the other way. He had to un-earth everything, and the inspector only briefly glanced at the new line.

For me, the un-answered question is: what if well-intentioned owner/builders go to their municipality, are told that they DO NOT need a permit, and then the authorities come back after the fact?

 

[Notgrownup]

I was gonna get a steel garage and they said Oh no, no permits..I started checking... NAH! I passed, I decided to pull a permit at least for the building...They get their little $7500 value for taxes, I get a shop done right... Next is Electrical, ain't pulling one for that...I'm glad I paid the $69 for the permit. it does give me peace of mind... the inspector caught a few things and gave me some good tips on how to fix and to make more solid and safer...Only cost me another $20.00 at lowes...I live in the Country and could've probably done it without a permit easily but wanted it done right for the next person to enjoy also.

 

[Notgrownup]

If I was replacing windows in the house or a door or remodeling a bathroom, etc... no way...
My next project is a Sunroom... Permit... yep...

 

[rancherbill]

It's all about taxes

That is only a small part of the answer.

Permits and the subsequent inspections ensure that there are no ongoing hazards. All the codes are based on experience gained from failures.

If you are happy repeating the mistakes of the past don't do it right. Be prepared for real problems or legal problems in the future.