Buying land without a current survey

[Bigblockyeti]

I bought property back in the mid 00's -- no survey. There were no issues with the property. No close building -- fences etc. The survey would have given no added value.

Two years ago when I decided to do something with it --- now I need the survey. I paid 7k for the survey .... and it not a huge property. Some places -- they are expensive

The cost of a survey is something on my mine too, the longest diagonal line that could be drawn across this property is about 2200' not including the added distance for slope. It drops over 300' from the road to the creek and per the topo map the steepest slope calculates at 30° so I would expect a survey to cost a pretty penny for sure. I have called the surveyor's son and the owner of the neighboring property to ask about surveys but neither has yet returned my call. Hopefully at least one of them will tomorrow.

 

[yeldogt]

The cost of a survey is something on my mine too, the longest diagonal line that could be drawn across this property is about 2200' not including the added distance for slope. It drops over 300' from the road to the creek and per the topo map the steepest slope calculates at 30° so I would expect a survey to cost a pretty penny for sure. I have called the surveyor's son and the owner of the neighboring property to ask about surveys but neither has yet returned my call. Hopefully at least one of them will tomorrow.

Local conditions/customs ... prevail. I always have the paper work reviewed .. There have been times where I have used bank or title company attorneys ,,, it really depends.

I'm also not going to use an old survey when things on the ground have changed -- be that the property I'm buying or another structure on another property looking to be incorrect as it relates to mine. Obviously, you don't want to guess about something important that is critical.

 

[mcbane]

Not trying to hijack this thread ...

I have heard (on GJ) of cases where pins were placed 50 (?) years ago, but they do not match up with the current "electronic" equipment.

Who "wins" ?

There are exceptions but usually the pins win. Boundary law is about intent of the agreement when property changes hands. The pins were set and marked when the parcel was created through subdivision and sold. The parties to transactions related to that parcel had a meeting of the minds understood primarily by the marking of the property corners. The record of survey is just a record of where the surveyor believed he set the corners.


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[Bigblockyeti]

There are exceptions but usually the pins win.

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Who then would have the burden of proof that the pin(s) hadn't been moved if the more accurate survey showed they were not in the correct location?

 

[yeldogt]

Who then would have the burden of proof that the pin(s) hadn't been moved if the more accurate survey showed they were not in the correct location?

With an open plot of land .. if you show the pins to be off and there is no hardship I can't see how you would not prevail

it's in the suburbs -- historical inaccurate building. Some new guy moves in and wants to claim his turf.

It's actually more of a problem in older developments -- builders do what they want .. mistakes get made and amplify.

For the most part ... the old guys knew what they were doing. Finding the pins -- that can be the problem. Or you need more pins -- to build.

 

[Lassen Forge]

My neighbor wanted to build a pretty big expansion on his garage, he forst went with the infamous google map, but then had a surveyor come out to find where our property line was so the back wall would be within the legally required setback and not on our property. Turns out Google was pretty far off. Fortunately, the surveyor also found the original pins, so now we both know, and his garage just fit - cut a LOT closer to the setback than he thought, but still fit in the spot.

I like GM because it gives an overhead view, and a general idea of where the actual property line may be near... but it's not even close to accurate.

 

[pcmeiners]

"There are exceptions but usually the pins win."

How can that be? Pin can be moved. Meeting of minds creates a lot line? I do not think so. Why would we have surveyors, deeds, and involvement of courts if a "meeting of minds" solved land issues. Also there can be many people involved in rights to land, ex wives, heir in the past, the government. There can be restrictions on land, place hundreds of years ago which can not be changed, even by a "meeting of the minds"; your boundary law book is wrong, so the "pin theory" is defunct.

 

[pcmeiners]

Lately I can not delete a message?

 

[LOW1]

"There are exceptions but usually the pins win."

How can that be? Pin can be moved. Meeting of minds creates a lot line? I do not think so. Why would we have surveyors, deeds, and involvement of courts if a "meeting of minds" solved land issues. Also there can be many people involved in rights to land, ex wives, heir in the past, the government. There can be restrictions on land, place hundreds of years ago which can not be changed, even by a "meeting of the minds"; your boundary law book is wrong, so the "pin theory" is defunct.

A big exception depends on what your state's view of Adverse Possession is. Under this theory ownership is determined largely by who has been using the property. Each state has different requirements for this (and some may not recognize it at all) so its a question to ask a local real estate lawyer.

And some states have similar - but yet different - theories for how one can gain or lose property. Boundaries by Acquiescence and Practical Boundaries are some theories. But you need to know your states views on these and not all states recognize them.

The observation about the possibility of someone pulling and relocating a pin is a valid one but this is a rare ocurrence in my experience. First, doing so is likely a crime in your state. Secondly, if the pin is pulled and relocated it will (or at least should) create a discrepancy between the legal description contained in the deed and the actual placement of the moved pin. So, the proper location of the pin can be relocated.

The Adverse Possession and other theories discussed above usually require good faith on the part of the claimant. So your neighbor can't move your pin by ten feet to widen his yard. But things get real murky if something like that was done 80 years ago and subsequent owners knew nothing about it. In general taking prompt legal action if you feel wronged is important to preserve your rights.

It's stuff like this which created the old cliche that possession is 9/10ths of the law.

 

[Bigblockyeti]

In general taking prompt legal action if you feel wronged is important to preserve your rights.

It's stuff like this which created the old cliche that possession is 9/10ths of the law.

It is for this reason that I'm considering taking preemptive action before buying the property. I don't think there's any issues other than perhaps (and I seriously doubt) the adjacent camp place one of many cabins partially across two boundry lines. Everything else looks pretty cut and dry.

 

[bushmechanic]

Regulations can and have changed in NC. The effect can be absolutely massive on what you can do and where.

You want a surveyor and a soil scientist out there. It doesn't cost much in the grand scheme of things.

 

[LOW1]

I would suggest that you consider making any offer you want to make contingent upon your satisfaction with any survey or boundary concern that you have. You can negotiate the survey expense as well. Or better would be to have the seller at the seller's sole expenses correct any possible problem before you make an offer.

 

[Cruzan80]

I would think unless all of the pins were moved the same amount, one pin being "off" would mean people would check into it.

Issue has come up in rural CO with pins vs GPS. Pins were set, markings say X degrees off mag north and a distance. However mag north has changed in the intervening hundred plus years, so when they tried to "update" using GPS, it was off. Pins told the real story. Amazingly, once they calculated mag drift, the pins were right on woth the description...

"There are exceptions but usually the pins win."

How can that be? Pin can be moved. Meeting of minds creates a lot line? I do not think so. Why would we have surveyors, deeds, and involvement of courts if a "meeting of minds" solved land issues. Also there can be many people involved in rights to land, ex wives, heir in the past, the government. There can be restrictions on land, place hundreds of years ago which can not be changed, even by a "meeting of the minds"; your boundary law book is wrong, so the "pin theory" is defunct.

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[Negen]

Here sometimes land is offered cheaper if there is not a current survey/perk. Here many times land is seen 'pending feasibility study' which a complete study will include practically of electric,water, sewer or septic as well as boarders.

Sometimes sellers try to list properties in ways that will encourage buyers to get these things done as the papers stay with the property.

One of my properties is in an hoa I bought it from the county it had only a partial fence on it. I built a fence continuing the current fence. I followed the steak markers. The hoa thinks the fence is on their property. I had the county out twice but the hoa. Never showed up. Fence still stands and I am not required to move it until house is sold. But not until a proper survey is completed.

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[Steve W.]

Reading through some of these stories, I feel rather fortunate.

I started on my shop 5 years ago. Started with a survey to mark/place the corner pins on the property (1/2 acre suburban lot, no HOA). The surveyor offered to place some extra pins near the work area for convenince, and I took him up on his offer. The cost for the survey was a whopping $450, which I was very happy to pay.

.

 

[Duker]

Reading through some of these stories, I feel rather fortunate.

I started on my shop 5 years ago. Started with a survey to mark/place the corner pins on the property (1/2 acre suburban lot, no HOA). The surveyor offered to place some extra pins near the work area for convenince, and I took him up on his offer. The cost for the survey was a whopping $450, which I was very happy to pay.

.

I did something similar when we bought our place as I wanted some additional pins marked for fencing as the line of sight was difficult though heavy under brush and hills.

In addition, I wanted to know if there were any easements that had been granted to utility companies or MUD’s so I knew where to avoid placing buildings etc.

A survey is cheap insurance so to speak when amortized over the life of ownership.


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[pcmeiners]

"A big exception depends on what your state's view of Adverse Possession is. "

Thankfully most states have a dim view of adverse possession, though it can be costly to regain possession after a low life squatter takes over. In NY, you must advise the owner of the land you are using you intend taking possession on a permanent basis. If the owner of the land does not respond , after a prescribed period the land is yours. In NY, placing/moving pins, placing a structure or fence is not enough.

 

[mcbane]

"There are exceptions but usually the pins win."



How can that be? Pin can be moved. Meeting of minds creates a lot line? I do not think so.

As I said there are exceptions. Moving a pin is a serious crime, is often detectable without a survey, and most property owners don’t do it.

If it is a matter of improved survey accuracy the historic understanding typically governs. As recently as 1977 CA sued to recover land (and tax revenue) previously understood to be in NV. The Supreme Court told both states the historic border, not the new more accurately surveyed border, would stand.



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[LOW1]

As I said there are exceptions. Moving a pin is a serious crime, is often detectable without a survey, and most property owners don’t do it.

If it is a matter of improved survey accuracy the historic understanding typically governs. As recently as 1977 CA sued to recover land (and tax revenue) previously understood to be in NV. The Supreme Court told both states the historic border, not the new more accurately surveyed border, would stand.



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Yes interesting stuff can happen. Think about what happens to state boundaries when the mississippi or missouri rivers shift course. For example there currently is a chunk of iowa on the west side of the missouri river.

 

[lml999]

I pointed out that the county roads, a major railway and several other obvious properties were all off by about 50 FT.

Yea, continental drift will do that.

 

[NotSoSimple]

Just closed the book on (I hope) the survey chapter of our new 6 acres a couple weeks ago. The only 'survey' was back in the 70's when it was originally divided from a huge piece of land. My western boundary was marked due to a new house going in next to me in the 90's. We purchased just 2 months ago and I was curious about our neighbors and where our lines really are. Speaking to him, he said when he built they just 'measured' from the fence line and called it good. I called around and every surveyor wanted to do an entire land plot ($7k+) except for two outfits. I only wanted one line since I found the other monuments. $1500 later we find out my neighbor uses my road has his driveway, as well as built a (Luckily tent style) shed on my property. They were floored when the markers went in. Best $1500 ever.

I did ask the title company and they said they were not interested in helping. That I had figured it out and if there is no legal dispute, deal with it.

 

[pcmeiners]

"I did ask the title company and they said they were not interested in helping. That I had figured it out and if there is no legal dispute, deal with it."

A Title company does not get involve with surveys until you hit the court system, the survey is your responsibility.

In NYC, every time real estate is sold or built upon you need a new survey. Unless you pay extra they never mark the property line, rather a scam here. Cost from $500-1500 for a typical property lot (under 6000 squ. ft)

 

[yeldogt]

"I did ask the title company and they said they were not interested in helping. That I had figured it out and if there is no legal dispute, deal with it."

A Title company does not get involve with surveys until you hit the court system, the survey is your responsibility.

In NYC, every time real estate is sold or built upon you need a new survey. Unless you pay extra they never mark the property line, rather a scam here. Cost from $500-1500 for a typical property lot (under 6000 squ. ft)

It is a scam ... it's done to keep them busy and to make sure they tax properly.

 

[yeldogt]

Just closed the book on (I hope) the survey chapter of our new 6 acres a couple weeks ago. The only 'survey' was back in the 70's when it was originally divided from a huge piece of land. My western boundary was marked due to a new house going in next to me in the 90's. We purchased just 2 months ago and I was curious about our neighbors and where our lines really are. Speaking to him, he said when he built they just 'measured' from the fence line and called it good. I called around and every surveyor wanted to do an entire land plot ($7k+) except for two outfits. I only wanted one line since I found the other monuments. $1500 later we find out my neighbor uses my road has his driveway, as well as built a (Luckily tent style) shed on my property. They were floored when the markers went in. Best $1500 ever.

I did ask the title company and they said they were not interested in helping. That I had figured it out and if there is no legal dispute, deal with it.

There are different levels ..... that's why one was 7k. You have to do the whole thing ... the most accurate will give you a line you can go to court with. You have to prove the pins.

You obviously had a need for the survey -- there are many properties where it does not matter ....

 

[imjustdave]

Never heard of anyone getting a survey done to buy a typical home in my area. In hot sale housing times home sell in hrs with all stipulation waved. You look up GIS, GM, and read title to get an idea and look at the property. Now we also have legal descriptions and people install fences all the time, but most are in developments, and the like so at some point someone laid it all out. So getting a survey prior is almost impossible on 90+ % of homes out here.
Now I'm sure big chunks will have sellers who have it marked or you can easily find the pins in the ground. But at the end of the day I have always seen a legal description on record.

I'm actually doing a boundary line adjustment with my neighbor Buying some land from him, and my slow surveyor took almost 2 months, granted some of that time was clearing up a monument discrepancy, and initial walk around showed most lines within inches of where they should be so no surprises.

I do know of a property where the neighbor decided to install a fence and the other owner didn't agree with locations.. both were wrong, It was one of those build a home behind another, so the one lost about 5 feet of a backyard but gained width.

So yeah fences mean little in the grand scheme of things

 

[gtsgarage]

Any update did you buy anything?

 

[jkeyser14]

The GIS data on our property is off by over 50 ft. It shows the neighbor's house and shed as being ours. We had 4 different surveys done over a period of 4 years (buying the lot, building the house, building a deck, and putting in a fence). We used 3 different surveyors. All confirmed that the GIS data is wrong based on our corner markers, surrounding property corner markers, and the deed descriptions.

GIS is not a replacement for actual surveyors on the ground taking real measurments.

 

[mx500]

we have 2 acre miniums in my area and survey/stakes are usually recorded. i had stakes but the area in between is tough to follow with trees and hills. I paid $450 to have a 400' side lot line staked in the middle. i should have done it sooner. the guys had some pretty elaborate equipment.
2 years prior a new neighbor wanted to build a shed and measured off his other neighbors fence. I told him i thought he was off, and also, needs to be 10' off the lot line. concrete truck showed up a day or two later. i told him i wasnt too happy. he sawed off 2' and i knew he was still close. didnt make a big deal about it as our kids play together. He must have paid good money as he had 3 builders there for a week constructing a shed. bolted down to concrete which is against township rules also, without building permit. loing story short when i got the surveyor out, he was 2 'over the property line on one corner of his shed. I told him not to worry, for now until either one of us sells. the guy is a vice principal at a high school..

 

[Negen]

By allowing him to continue to use the extra two feet you are potentially putting yourself at risk of losing it. Laws vary from locality but it isn't a good idea to allow use your land.

we have 2 acre miniums in my area and survey/stakes are usually recorded. i had stakes but the area in between is tough to follow with trees and hills. I paid $450 to have a 400' side lot line staked in the middle. i should have done it sooner. the guys had some pretty elaborate equipment.
2 years prior a new neighbor wanted to build a shed and measured off his other neighbors fence. I told him i thought he was off, and also, needs to be 10' off the lot line. concrete truck showed up a day or two later. i told him i wasnt too happy. he sawed off 2' and i knew he was still close. didnt make a big deal about it as our kids play together. He must have paid good money as he had 3 builders there for a week constructing a shed. bolted down to concrete which is against township rules also, without building permit. loing story short when i got the surveyor out, he was 2 'over the property line on one corner of his shed. I told him not to worry, for now until either one of us sells. the guy is a vice principal at a high school..

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