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Can I MIG without tanks?

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t100

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it takes google 0.08 second to find this video from Lincoln.

 

diesel research

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It would be more helpful if a link or two were included.
We are here to help each other aye.

In saying that, I have been using flux coreand anti splatter for welding for a while now and have not had any problems.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong. :sad:

If I knew of the links, I would post them, no problem helping a gj'er. Since I couldn't, I figured I would explain the short version myself, so added a bit about slag inclusion.

I wanted to specifically emphasize that fcaw can work. The first welder I purchased was a cheap *** 90amp CH dual-use gas/gasless welder from walmart that had the wrong price tag on it. Basically got the gas conversion kit for the price of a flux only welder. Couldn't afford a gas bottle, as I was a high school student juggling football and mcdonalds.

I definitely started by patching doors and rockers with it. Came out half decent as long as I peened the patch and receiving piece. Meaning rolled edged for thicker "flange" at weld **** joint.

I later went on to work at places that provided "proper" migs in the 400amp range, but do in fact remember my "roots". None the less, my comment still bears truth.

Try to avoid fcaw on autobody work and thinner materials. It can work, so can jb weld. Does not mean either are most appropriate

I have successfully used both above mentioned methods, although they are not optimal. A friend went so far as to use the jb on a/c pressure lines. Works, still not the most appropriate method.

I-CAR goes so far as to advise professional body men not to do this, for the reasons mentioned previously. In one previous discussion it was revealed that the stricter version of DOT (german TUV) specifically prohibits this method. Likely for the same reasons, inclusions.

A good welder (operator) will use practices that prevent inclusions (slag buried in weld bead) but a beginner is more likely to develop the inclusions.
 
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Thanks for all the info guys. Greatly appreciated. I guess I have more 'learnin to do (books, videos, etc.). There is a welding shop next door and one of the younger guys (who only works there when needed) is always complaining about not having enough work/$$$. I offered him $50/hr. to work on my projects while teaching me to weld, but I guess he'd rather smoke dope all day.

Oh, well. Just as with everything else I do, I WILL teach myself!
 

av8r

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Nah...I just pick up stuff and start going. That's how I learn. :shocking:

That's how it's done according to my welding instructor. He teaches the process and the student learns how to apply it. I was given a 50-year-old Lincoln AC buzz box. I went to the local tech school, paid only $158 to join a 12 week no-credit introductory welding class on four processes, Oxy-Fuel Welding/Cutting/Stick(SMAW)/MIG(GMAW)/TIG(GTAW). The equipment is so much better than what I have, I have signed up for the class three times. I guess I'm hooked. I really like stick and MIG but so far I **** at TIG and Oxy-Fuel. I'm thinking of taking some of the more expensive credit classes that involve weekly fabrication projects.
 
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I would sign up for a class in a heartbeat, but they only offer them during weekdays at our local tech/voc center.

With so many welders out of work, you would think someone wouldn't mind teaching me to weld (while getting paid)...
 

diesel research

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Can't speak for toms river, but in most places, out of work welder=drug addict. No offense to any current out of work welders here. Just pointing out that, that is one of the top reasons for losing a job in this industry. Most of the employers around here are looking for more drug free help.
 

crewchief888

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Most of the welding supply shops cater to pro's. They typically don't want to be bothered with "civilians". That's why I have yous guys...

if this is the case, it's time to find another weld supply shop.

i ran into this same issue with a local shop, i finally told them to "stick it", and went to another shop that was more than happy to answer my questions.

FWIW i run flux core wire most of the time (in the garage). the majority of my welds are on heavier steel, and on my own time, if i have some splatter, i dont care, i'll clean it off.
the only time i switch over to solid wire/gas is to do sheet metal work for someone besides myself.

my welder at work is on solid wire/ mix gas, i dont really have time to be cleaning welds.

:beer:
 
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Took some pics of my set-up today while I was at the shop. Just curious now as to what I need to weld steel. The machine is currently configured to weld aluminum...
 

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danski0224

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OK...research indicates I need a wire feeder (Miller 22A) and a gun. This is getting expensive!

There is a lot of that stuff on the used market.

You may also consider buying a separate dedicated mig unit for steel- it might be less expensive. You may give up some possible features with an "all-in-one" machine compared to the power source/feeder route, but for a basic shop setup it may not matter.

One machine for aluminum and another for steel will be more productive, and you will want to do the projects vs not wanting to change over the machine.

There are lots of used traditional "all-in-one" MIG setups for sale, too.

The Miller gear holds its value, so unless you find "the deal", a used piece of equipment at 25% off may not be such a buy.

You can't buy a new MIG welder for less than this price on a 22A: http://www.brweldingsupplies.com/product_details.cfm?category_id=12&product_id=181

There are lots of options available for the 22A feeder. This is a price for the same unit above, but with the optional voltage control: http://www.scottgrossstore.com/servlet/the-58667/Miller-22A-Wire-Feeder/Detail If you start looking at these options, you have to know what you want and whether or not your power source will work with it.

This is compatibe with the spoolgun you have: http://store.cyberweld.com/mil251witmet.html I don't know what the used market is for your power source, but that would be a nice setup.
 
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Thanks for the info. I really don't have room for two machines and they would not be used to their potential. I'm only planning on doing the occasional "hobby" welding. Will definitely look for a used 22A.
 

35mastr

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Thanks for the info. I really don't have room for two machines and they would not be used to their potential. I'm only planning on doing the occasional "hobby" welding. Will definitely look for a used 22A.

Then yank that spool gun. Sell it unless you you want to run aluminim. Buy a the proper Gun,Tips and and liner to run that machine with gas. You have the proper machine to make really nice welds if you set it up the way that its suppose to run. Pretty basic.
 

danski0224

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Then yank that spool gun. Sell it unless you you want to run aluminim. Buy a the proper Gun,Tips and and liner to run that machine with gas. You have the proper machine to make really nice welds if you set it up the way that its suppose to run. Pretty basic.

The gun in the picture looks pretty rough, which will impact the value, especially if it needs parts (the places wrapped in electrical tape).

Unless it sells for almost new, or if the guy needs the money, I would keep it and start servicing the spool gun... I would certainly check the cost of replacing the parts that appear to be damaged in the photo, and get rid of the electrical tape.

I figure that anyone with a website for a user name can swing the <$900 for a NEW stripper 22A feeder with the "free" Bernard gun. If not, then maybe a different user name without the free advertising would be appropriate. :beer:

That spool gun new is ~$900.
 

trackwelder

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I would get a bottle and weld with solid wire. I burn a ton of fluxcore wire at work and would not even think of welding with it in my shop. The only flux smoke in my shop is from an occasional 7018 rod bent to access a tight spot. Trust me chipping slag and breathing or looking through smoke gets old quick.
 

e-tek

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How about going down to your local welding supply store and talk to someone about some help.

Don't take this personally, but if all we're going to do is refer people's questions to other sites and the local welding store, then what good is this site? I know there's lots of action on threads like "What did you get for Valentine's Day" and "What type of Jock do you wear", but if that's all we have to offer then we may as change the name to "Man-Chat":bounce:

That being said, there has been some good info here - but it tok until page 3 for the OP to finally get an answer on how what he needs to set his welder up for steel! I'd also keep the aluminum spool gun - no sooner will you sell it (for nothing) then buy something made of aluminum that needs welding!

Custom, a 22A gun (which comes attached to the hose, which contains the "liner" 35mastr mentions) should not be that much to buy new. It will also come with the tips and gas shield. Then you just need to buy a spool of wire (.035 is good for general welding). You can buy flux-cored wire (not "coreflux") and have at 'er right away, or straight/naked wire and a bottle of c25 for true MIG (Metal-Inert-Gas) welding.

The instruction manual will show you how to hook up the wires in front of your machine for flux-cored or MIG. The wire runs through the machine and hose (liner) the same way. I'm not aware of flux-cored wire "ruining" linings, but then I have different machines for each.

Setting up the gas is very easy. You "lease" a bottle from your local supply store, attach it (securely!) to your mig stand/machine, then follow the instructions on hooking it up. Once you have the regulator and hose attached, brush a little soapy water on the unions to check for leaks. It could save you going though a bottle of gas real fast!

Start practicing on some different pieces of metal and you'll get the hang of it in no time. There was a great thread her a whilee back about the actual technique - find that.
 
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danski0224

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That being said, there has been some good info here - but it tok until page 3 for the OP to finally get an answer on how what he needs to set his welder up for steel! I'd also keep the aluminum spool gun - no sooner will you sell it (for nothing) then buy something made of aluminum that needs welding!

It also took to page 3 for the OP to provide some meaningful info on his setup.

That should have been provided first, eh?

Just sayin...

At less than $900 for the basic 22A and a Bernard gun (check the link in my previous post), no way I would get rid of the spool gun, "hobbyist" or not.

:bounce:
 

Charles (in GA)

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OK, so it's C25 for steel or flux-core wire. If I remove the (aluminum) spool gun, what do I need to handle the steel wire and/or gas?

Don't need ANY gas for the flux core. Thats what the flux is, just like the coating on a stick welding electrode, it flows over the weld and prevents the oxygen from reaching the weld.

No flux core for AL however (that I know of) so you have three choices, 1) flux core for steel, 2) C25 for steel with non-flux wire, or 3) argon and wire for AL

Charles
 

danski0224

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Etec the biggest issue with the OP's setup is it isnt a MIG welder it is a power supply. The only way to turn it into a MIG is to add another machine ( The 22A wire feeder ) . This is going to get expensive.

The feeder is less than $900.00.

A dedicated, nice Miller 220v MIG machine is almost double that, plus the consumables.

Adding a feeder to that power supply is a pretty reasonable alternative.
 
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e-tek

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Etec the biggest issue with the OP's setup is it isnt a MIG welder it is a power supply. The only way to turn it into a MIG is to add another machine ( The 22A wire feeder ) . This is going to get expensive .

http://www.brweldingsupplies.com/product_details.cfm?category_id=12&product_id=181


Rick

Thanks Rick - I missed that key point. Thought he was starting with a Mig and aluminum spool gun. He has a couple options then.
The Lincoln 180 is great for most uses and is $400 in the states. Pretty reasonable alternative.
 

danski0224

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Thanks Rick - I missed that key point. Thought he was starting with a Mig and aluminum spool gun. He has a couple options then.
The Lincoln 180 is great for most uses and is $400 in the states. Pretty reasonable alternative.

The Lincoln would add easier portability compared to the existing power supply + 22A feeder. It is also spool gun compatible- not sure if the existing spool gun could be cobbled to the Miller or the Lincoln 180 class machines.

The Lincoln is also built better than the comparable Blue machine. If I was buying, that's what I would get.

But, the "industrial" level equipment is much better than the "homeowner" or "hobbyist" equipment. The OP already has 1/2 of what is needed, plus a spool gun to play with.

Doing a quick search, the OP's power source has good reviews, and it seems to be durable.

Adding a 22A feeder to that power souce would result in something a lot more flexible than the 180 series machines no matter what color they are painted.

A couple of nice options on the feeder would increase the versatility. Some of the options can be added later.
 
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Thanks Rick - I missed that key point. Thought he was starting with a Mig and aluminum spool gun.

The machine (power supply) I have is set-up for MIG (aluminum). I bought it from the welding shop next door (sans tank). They were using it to MIG aluminum.

It is my understanding, I need a wire feeder and a different gun to MIG steel, yes?
 
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I figure that anyone with a website for a user name can swing the <$900 for a NEW stripper 22A feeder with the "free" Bernard gun. If not, then maybe a different user name without the free advertising would be appropriate. :beer:

I can certainly swing $900 for a new 22A, but why would I when Craigslist is over-flowing with welding equipment? I didn't become wealthy paying retail...

I already own this machine, so I'm not going to be buying anything else. I just want to "upgrade" it so I can MIG steel and aluminum as the situation arises.

P.S. - The web domain cost me $9.99 from GoDaddy.com. Have you visited my website? :confused:
 
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gte718p

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What you have is a nice machine. It is indeed setup for aluminum. I think we have established that.

You need a drive unit as mentioned several times. You can run either shielded or not. If you go shielded you need a bottle of c25. Feeders run about $900 dollars. Your other option is to buy a small mig. That runs about $400 dollars.

All depends on what you are going to do with it.

Drive units are not something that pop on craigslist all that often. However, if you see one grab it and your good to go. If your not planning on doing al welding you probably can sell or trade for a small all in one unit fairly easily as what you have is fairly specialized for al welding, but fairly high dollar.
 

uhohjim

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the later model 251/252 have direct hook up.

not on a MM250, you need a 10-pin module to hook up a spool gun. Miller part# 043084, it's about $250

I had a MM250 a spool gun was a direct fit no adaptor needed.........I now have a mm 252 same deal.Jim
 

danski0224

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I can certainly swing $900 for a new 22A, but why would I when Craigslist is over-flowing with welding equipment? I didn't become wealthy paying retail...

I already own this machine, so I'm not going to be buying anything else. I just want to "upgrade" it so I can MIG steel and aluminum as the situation arises.

P.S. - The web domain cost me $9.99 from GoDaddy.com. Have you visited my website? :confused:

Then just buy the 22A and be done with it.

If you add some of the available options to the feeder, you will have a *really* nice machine that is better than a Millermatic 250.

What you have is a nice machine. It is indeed setup for aluminum. I think we have established that.

You need a drive unit as mentioned several times. You can run either shielded or not. If you go shielded you need a bottle of c25. Feeders run about $900 dollars. Your other option is to buy a small mig. That runs about $400 dollars.

All depends on what you are going to do with it.

Drive units are not something that pop on craigslist all that often. However, if you see one grab it and your good to go. If your not planning on doing al welding you probably can sell or trade for a small all in one unit fairly easily as what you have is fairly specialized for al welding, but fairly high dollar.

The drive units are more common on eBay, but unless it is close, you have no way to check it out. Just punch in "Miller 22A" in the search bar.

Or, industrial auction places. Again, you have to know what new costs and avoid "auction fever".

My rule is to buy at 30% off new or less for used equipment, with 50% off being ideal. The closer it is to 50% off, the more flexible I am on condition... otherwise, I just buy new and enjoy the warranty.

If I can get a used beat up feeder for $750... I'll just buy a new one unless used is serviceable and I can check it out. At that price point, the $150 savings isn't worth it.

The specialization of your setup means in order to get top dollar, you have to sell it to someone that knows what it is.

And, if you were selling it to me, I wouldn't offer more than 50% of what I can buy new for, NOT 50% off "manufacturer's list price" because your unit is pretty beat up... which is why I suggest keeping it and buying a 22A- unless you can get some fool to give you top dollar.

What you have + the $$ for a 22A feeder will be much more versatile than the $400 small MIG machines if your intent is to have 1 welder. The problem is because you do not weld or have experience on equipment, you do not know that.

It is much easier to have a bigger capacity piece of equipment and grow into it rather than have a piece of equipment that you outgrow.

You need to spend some time researching the capabilities of what you have on paper because you do not know how to use the equipment and evaluate that way. The Miller website is a great place to start. Then research the cost to buy it new. See what used is selling for on eBay.

Once you know and understand the capabilities of what you have, and what a 22A feeder can do, then research those small $400 machines. Pay attention to welding current and duty cycle.

Then check out the stuff like a Millermatic 250. Also check out equal Lincoln stuff.
 
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e-tek

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Here's what I'd do if I was in your position (like you care!): realize you bought wrong and re-sell it. Take whatever you get and get a 180 series machine and a bottle lease. It'll do what you want and more, in a nice way, with a warranty. If by some fluke you want to weld aluminum some day, the aluminum spool isn't that much for a 180 machine. I think you'll be ahead in several ways.
 
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Here's what I'd do if I was in your position (like you care!): realize you bought wrong and re-sell it. Take whatever you get and get a 180 series machine and a bottle lease. It'll do what you want and more, in a nice way, with a warranty. If by some fluke you want to weld aluminum some day, the aluminum spool isn't that much for a 180 machine. I think you'll be ahead in several ways.

I don't think I "bought wrong". I only paid $700 for the set-up and I do want to be able to weld aluminum some day. I just think that I should learn how to weld steel first before "stepping up" to aluminum.
 

danski0224

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I can tell you that trying to MIG weld thin aluminum with that spoolgun will be difficult/impossible without a pulse control.

Thin would be .062" (about 1/16").
 

Skyline

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I would call Miller tech support and find out if there are any other wire feeders other than the 22a that can work with that machine. For example they make a few "suitcase" style wire feeders. The only reason I suggest this, is by expanding your search for different wire feeders, you improve your chance of finding a good deal. If you do an eBay search for Miller wire feeder, you'll come up with at least 6 varieties, some priced in the $300-400 range. Searching for 22a only produced wire feeder/welder combinations.
 

Skyline

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I don't think I "bought wrong". I only paid $700 for the set-up and I do want to be able to weld aluminum some day. I just think that I should learn how to weld steel first before "stepping up" to aluminum.

That's top dollar, maybe more, for a machine in that condition. I bought my Millermatic 250 with wire, regulator and spares for $900. When looking for a used spoolgun, I found another similar Millermatic with a spoolgun and about ten rolls of wire plus regulator for $900. So I bought that one too, kept the spool gun, and sold the welder for $900. Both of these machines looked brand new, no damage at all, and had been lightly used by home hobbyists; not day-in day-out by a welding shop.
 
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That's top dollar, maybe more, for a machine in that condition. I bought my Millermatic 250 with wire, regulator and spares for $900. When looking for a used spoolgun, I found another similar Millermatic with a spoolgun and about ten rolls of wire plus regulator for $900. So I bought that one too, kept the spool gun, and sold the welder for $900. Both of these machines looked brand new, no damage at all, and had been lightly used by home hobbyists; not day-in day-out by a welding shop.

Things are a little bit costlier in SoFLA vs. Briarcliff NY.

http://miami.craigslist.org/mdc/tls/2192103299.html

http://miami.craigslist.org/mdc/tls/2181269824.html
 
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Skyline

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If you look at that first one, it may be more costly than what you have, but probably would have been a better deal. When you price out a couple of big tanks, plus regulators, plus the cost of a wire feeder, you will be getting close to that figure. And that machine is much newer and in much better condition. The 30a spoolgun lists for $1,200 alone. And just because someone is asking $2k, it does not mean they won't settle for a few hundred less.
 

Skyline

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If you look at that first one, it may be more costly than what you have, but probably would have been a better deal. When you price out a couple of big tanks, plus regulators, plus the cost of a wire feeder, you will be getting close to that figure. And that machine is much newer and in much better condition. The 30a spoolgun lists for $1,200 alone. And just because someone is asking $2k, it does not mean they won't settle for a few hundred less.

BTW a great book to get to learn how to weld is the Monster Garage Series book "How to Weld Damn Near Anything".
 

MoonRise

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Mancaves,

Learn by reading and doing? Sure.

www.millerwelds.com

including

http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/calculators/mig_solid_amperage_calculator.php

and look for the"Other Resources" links on the left, including

http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/basicMIG/index.htm

www.lincolnelectric.com

including

http://lincolnelectric.com/en-us/support/Pages/resources.aspx

and

http://lincolnelectric.com/en-us/support/process-and-theory/Pages/process-and-theory.aspx

www.esabna.com

especially

http://esabna.com/us/en/education/esab-university.cfm

and

http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/MIG_handbook/592mig1_1.htm


Next, as to what you have and what you want to be able to do.

You have a DC CV (constant voltage) welding power supply used for wire-feed welding (GMAW aka MIG, or FCAW). By itself, it won't really enable you to weld.

To weld, you also need some sort of wire feeder. A wire-feeder with a gun/torch or a spoolgun.

http://www.millerwelds.com/products/wire_feeders/

Typical Miller wirefeeder choices for use with a CV power source would be a 22A/24A 'shop' feeder or a Suitcase 8RC (8 inch spools) or 12RC (8 or 12 inch spools) feeder for shop/field use. Since your welding power source that you have is CV, you do not 'need' the VS suitcase wire feeder voltage-sensing capabilities, although they do give you the capability to run up to 400 ft (round trip) of welding cable between the suitcase and the power supply compared to 150 ft round trip of the RC suitcase feeders.

You already have a spoolgun. :lol_hitti

Spoolguns are typically used for wirefeed welding of aluminum, as the aluminum electrode/filler-wire is typically soft and not able to be fed through a long gun/torch cable (think pushing a rope uphill or pushing cooked spaghetti noodles uphill through a thin straw several feet long). The spoolgun shortens the distance the (soft, compared to steel filler wire/electrode) aluminum was has to be pushed from multiple feet (10, 15, or 25 feet often for 'common' guns/torches) down to maybe 12-15 inches.

Like most things in life, there ain't no free lunch. Meaning that there are always trade-offs. Spoolgun trade-offs include bigger and bulkier than just a gun/torch head, so tight access is reduced when using a spoolgun. Also, the spoolgun is heavier than just a torch head. And spoolguns just use the small 4 inch diameter spools of filler wire (typically 1 lb in aluminum wire and 2 lb in steel wire, solid or fluxcore). The small 4 inch spools are typically more expensive on a per pound basis than larger spools and not all wire types/sizes are available on all spool sizes.

Want to learn to 'MIG' weld steel? Easiest way I can think of, and costing less than getting an 'industrial' Miller wirefeeder (shop 22A/24A or Suitcase), would be just buying a 'small' GMAW aka 'MIG' machine. Typically, the 180-class of machines are quite capable (within their power limits). Moving up to the 250-class machines gives you more capability as they can usually take the larger 12 inch wire spools compared to the 180-class that can usually only go up to the 8 inch spools, and also usually have enough power to let you do spray-transfer as well as short-circuit transfer (read the above links for what that means if you don't already know). Again, no free lunch as they are typically bigger and heavier and more expensive than the 180-class machines.

Buy the small(er) MIG machine, learn to weld steel, and then resell it. Or keep it, as a handy smaller machine. Even a (decent) 120V MIG machine is usually quite nice for GMAW on sheet metal (auto panels). Rig it with some 0.023/0.025 solid wire and a tank of C25 and you are good to go. Note that welding on thin sheet metal is an exercise in not only ADDING heat to weld it but in also MANAGING heat to not warp it into a banana. :lol_hitti

Regarding classes and school, instead of looking at the vo-tech schools, maybe check out some 'adult ed' classes. Those typically run evening/nights instead of days like vo-tech stuff does. :beer:

And as mentioned (several times), to MIG weld you need shielding gas. Different shielding gases may be needed based on what and how you are welding. For short-circuit transfer GMAW of plain steel, two typical gases used could be plain CO2 or C25 (75% argon and 25% CO2). For welding stainless steel with GMAW, different gases are used. For GMAW of aluminum, plain argon is used.

There are some FCAW wires that can be used (quite well) for welding on steel. Quick description of FCAW wire? Think of a stick electrode turned inside-out with the flux inside instead of outside. Some FCAW wires are made to be used all by themselves (FCAW-S for "self-shielding") and some are made to be used with gas shielding (FCAW-G). Note that the FCAW-G wires (and many FCAW-S ones as well) can't be run with the 'little' MIG machines (they don't produce the correct voltage output to run the wires). Your Regency 250 would not have that problem, as it has enough volts and amps to run most any wire type (but not all sizes, as it still tops out at 250 amps max). :)

FCAW wire typically burns 'hotter' than plain solid wire with gas. So in combination with also producing slag and typically more spatter than GMAW, FCAW is -usually- not the go-to method for welding thin steel (like auto body panels). There are also issues with the slag being on the 'back' side of a welded patch panel, that if you can't get to in order to grind it all clean can lead to accelerated corrosion/rusting from the back side of panels. As mentioned.

Like most things in life, it's all about trade-offs and choices. Your call as to what and how you want to rig/do things. :beer:
 

ibedayank

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Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
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Location
Columbia TN
Now this is one of those time when you really need to spend money to take a class to learn how to do it RIGHT and safely. In the end it will save you money by learning how to weld and use the welder safely!!
Welding is not easy to do it right.
If done wrong it can hurt or kill people when what YOU welded comes apart.
 
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