Can we stop calling it 220?

[MrMark]

Here's how easy this is to understand.

There are three wires on the transmission lines on the poles in my back yard. These are the three phases being transmitted by the power company.

There is a single wire connected from one of the three transmission wires to the transformer that steps the transmission power down to my house. One wire goes into the transformer from the transmission lines. There is only one transformer. Coming out of the transformer are three taps. Since my service is so close to the transformer, the three wires come directly to my service entrance. (They also connect to the three wires that distribute the stepped down power to the other houses.)

Since only one wire goes into the transformer and that transformer provides all of the power to my house, the power is single phase. If I had three phase power, there would be wires coming from a transformer on each of the other two transmission wires.

The difference in voltage is the difference in the location of the tap with respect to the transformer coils.

Read some of what has been written. Your simplistic argument is not particularly helpful. Electricity, of all mediums, does not lend itself to simplicity. Some things are just not simple, electricity is one of them.

 

[Hurricane_Whisperer]

You were embarrassed by that tour de force. That article said exactly what I said it said, it was not subject to reasonable dispute. I'm not just a lawyer.

You didn't understand what they said. It was not what you said.

And now you get to explain how the power company transmits two phases in one wire.

 

[MrMark]

You didn't understand what they said. It was not what you said.

And now you get to explain how the power company transmits two phases in one wire.

You really need to learn to read. I made it very clear numerous times that I was not talking about generated power, or how it was transmitted. I am talking about what is really delivered to your panel. The signal is transformed and two phases are created at the transformer. The two phases are made possible by the arrangement of the three wire system and the center tapping.

On the other point, it most certainly was and you had no response.

 

[MrMark]

Here's how easy this is to understand.

There are three wires on the transmission lines on the poles in my back yard. These are the three phases being transmitted by the power company.

There is a single wire connected from one of the three transmission wires to the transformer that steps the transmission power down to my house. One wire goes into the transformer from the transmission lines. There is only one transformer. Coming out of the transformer are three taps. Since my service is so close to the transformer, the three wires come directly to my service entrance. (They also connect to the three wires that distribute the stepped down power to the other houses.)

Since only one wire goes into the transformer and that transformer provides all of the power to my house, the power is single phase. If I had three phase power, there would be wires coming from a transformer on each of the other two transmission wires.

The difference in voltage is the difference in the location of the tap with respect to the transformer coils.

One wire connected to the transformer, huh?

 

[Hurricane_Whisperer]

Read some of what has been written. Your simplistic argument is not particularly helpful. Electricity, of all mediums, does not lend itself to simplicity. Some things are just not simple, electricity is one of them.

Dear God. (That's not you.)

This is not my transformer. There are many like it, but this one is not mine.

See the single wire going up at the top. It is connected to a single wire, transmitting a single phase from the utility.

Here is a schematic of how the transformer is wired.

A transformer cannot take a single phase and turn it into many phases.

The three phases that are transmitted are a natural product of the way the generator at the utility is made.

 

[Hurricane_Whisperer]

You really need to learn to read. I made it very clear numerous times that I was not talking about generated power, or how it was transmitted. I am talking about what is really delivered to your panel. The signal is transformed and two phases are created at the transformer. The two phases are made possible by the arrangement of the three wire system and the center tapping.

On the other point, it most certainly was and you had no response.

You need to understand the definition of words. Only then, can you claim to read something.

Transformers do not create phases. Transformers are static devices and cannot create a phase.

The different voltages in residential homes are legs, not phases.

Phases are created by equipment that rotates, not static devices like transformers.

 

[Berserker]

HW, if I was you, and drinking, I would have been banned by now, telling Marc how it works.

 

[ddawg16]

Gents.....lets stop the personal attacks.....the mods have made it very clear....lets discuss on technical points....not personal....

With that said....I jokingly said it was two phase...but it is single phase.

If it was 2 phase, then you would have to have 2 transformer windings to step up/down or decouple the source. But because you can take that 240v source and feed it into a single transformer winding....it's single phase....

However, you can feed it into two different windings...but they are either parallel or series....which still means single phase.

So...lets stop the personal attacks.....your starting to sound like me....

 

[Hurricane_Whisperer]

HW, if I was you, and drinking, I would have been banned by now, telling Marc how it works.

I'm not really talking to him. That would be a waste of time. I am responding to him, so that other's don't learn things that are totally wrong from him.

He does challenge me to find answers to things I might otherwise take for granted.

I learn. I respond. He makes up the definitions of words that do not match anyone else's.

 

[Hurricane_Whisperer]

One wire connected to the transformer, huh?

One wire IN to the transformer from ONE of the three phases at the top of the power pole.

There is a wire out from the transfomer which goes to ground.

http://www.psc.state.fl.us/consumers/utilitypole/en/allutilitypoleinfo.aspx

See item 7, at the link. They describe the way the transformer in my back yard is wired.

 

[jcouch1]

i think i'm gonna start calling mine 128.3 volts quad phase

p.s. I'm just being facetious

 

[Hurricane_Whisperer]

Gents.....lets stop the personal attacks.....the mods have made it very clear....lets discuss on technical points....not personal....

With that said....I jokingly said it was two phase...but it is single phase.

If it was 2 phase, then you would have to have 2 transformer windings to step up/down or decouple the source. But because you can take that 240v source and feed it into a single transformer winding....it's single phase....

However, you can feed it into two different windings...but they are either parallel or series....which still means single phase.

So...lets stop the personal attacks.....your starting to sound like me....

Jokingly?
This is electric power. It, like the internet, is serious business.

Are you old enough to remember when President Reagan joked before his radio address that Russia was outlawed forever and the bombing would begin in five minutes? The joke wasn't aired, but it was reported.

The Evil emporers didn't think it was a joke. They bankrupted themselves as they were scared to death of him and his sense of humor.

If we allow people to create two phases from a static device like a transformer, next they will start screwing up terms like grounding conductor and the grounded conductor.

 

[54FordPanel]

You forgot about off.

It's a three way switch.

Except it does not have an "off". A 3-way switch (what I think should be called a 2-way switch) either throws it to one pole or the other. There is no "off" like a single pole switch.

But, whatever. They can call them whatever they want.

 

[Bull]

The Electrical forum is hands down the nastiest place on this whole site. Every week, there is some thread in which people are clubbing each other over the head.

Any chance of civil discussion?

All the personal BS is going to start getting people in trouble.

 

[Hurricane_Whisperer]

Except it does not have an "off". A 3-way switch (what I think should be called a 2-way switch) either throws it to one pole or the other. There is no "off" like a single pole switch.

But, whatever. They can call them whatever they want.

Yeah, your right, it isn't off as in open instead of closed.

I think they just counted the number of screws then.

A three way switch has three screws and a four way has four screws. (Not counting ground screw.)

 

[Norcal]

The Brits call it a " 2-way" switch, not sure how it came about being called a 3-way.

 

[Mike14k]

Ok, so if we really want to ponder something.....

Why does the phone service into your home depend on -48v DC for ring voltage/current. What's with the "minus" part of this ??? Why not +48 v DC ???

 

[Berserker]

Switch your leads around.

 

[54FordPanel]

The Brits call it a " 2-way" switch, not sure how it came about being called a 3-way.

Then I'm with the Brits on this one.

Ok, so if we really want to ponder something.....

Why does the phone service into your home depend on -48v DC for ring voltage/current. What's with the "minus" part of this ??? Why not +48 v DC ???

The talk battery is -48v DC, the ringing current is 90v AC at I believe 60 milliamps.
They made it -48v because it's cleaner to talk on. (There might be a better reason, I don't know. I believe in the offices it's the same as a positive ground situation.

/I awaiting correction on the positive ground part.

Switch your leads around.

No, it really is -48volts. Yes, switching your leads reverses it, but it's -48 volts.

 

[ddawg16]

Ok, so if we really want to ponder something.....

Why does the phone service into your home depend on -48v DC for ring voltage/current. What's with the "minus" part of this ??? Why not +48 v DC ???

Actually...the ring is about 90 volts....AC...20 hz to be exact.

The dc your talking about is the DC they use for some of the old multi-channel carrier equipment, like AML, CM8....party lines...ect. The DC voltage was used to charge the batteries so the electronics would power the system while 'off hook'...

 

[ddawg16]

Jokingly?
This is electric power. It, like the internet, is serious business.

Are you old enough to remember when President Reagan joked before his radio address that Russia was outlawed forever and the bombing would begin in five minutes? The joke wasn't aired, but it was reported.

The Evil emporers didn't think it was a joke. They bankrupted themselves as they were scared to death of him and his sense of humor.

If we allow people to create two phases from a static device like a transformer, next they will start screwing up terms like grounding conductor and the grounded conductor.

For someone who has less than 100 posts, your pretty cocky......

Do I remember when Regan said that? I remember when Kennedy was shot...does that help?

I somehow sense that you didn't read the all of the posts 'fully'....I said something to the fact that the two voltages are 180 deg out of phase with each other...as referenced to neutral...and that I could show you two different phases with a 2 channel O-Scope....it was tongue and cheek....I was trying to tone down the 'attitude' of this thread....

Just so you understand, there is somewhat of a pecking order here....not really different than real life....in order to earn the right to insult someone, you have to be around for awhile and earn some respect.

It's kind of like a new employee starting to work and telling the assistant manager he is an idiot...even though he might be, it's not something the new guy does.

If you survive here long enough, you will see that I sometimes have 'issues' with other members. But our 'host', Ryan, has made it pretty clear that he wants a lot of the BS cleaned up or he just might pull free parking. I 'thought' I got the point across in my last post to calm down. When Bull chims in, it's no longer a hint. The next step is a bit more obvious.

Please don't let it go that far.

 

[MrMark]

You need to understand the definition of words. Only then, can you claim to read something.

Transformers do not create phases. Transformers are static devices and cannot create a phase.

The different voltages in residential homes are legs, not phases.

Phases are created by equipment that rotates, not static devices like transformers.

The phases are created by the connections to the transformer, as I've said before. You may not understand it but there are two different waveforms that can be seen on an oscilloscope. One waveform is inverted with respect to the other and the center tap. Unless you want to define inverted waveforms as not having different phases, there are two phases. If there were not two phases you wouldn't have to ensure that MWBC's were on seperate phases to avoid overloading the neutral.

Your rural transmission system that uses the earth for a return current path has nothing to do with the creation of phase separation at the utility panel. There are two wires there as well, it's just that the earth is used as the second wire because it is the cheapest way to get power to an isolated area.

 

[hofferwood]

480v / 1.732 (square root of 3) = 277v


Sorry, tried to LIGHTen it up
Chuck

 

[W-Cummins]

The phases are created by the connections to the transformer, as I've said before. .

So if i have a 480V to 240V transformer (single phase), does it make single phase or 2 phase 240V as its output??

William....

 

[Hurricane_Whisperer]

The phases are created by the connections to the transformer, as I've said before. You may not understand it but there are two different waveforms that can be seen on an oscilloscope. One waveform is inverted with respect to the other and the center tap. Unless you want to define inverted waveforms as not having different phases, there are two phases. If there were not two phases you wouldn't have to ensure that MWBC's were on seperate phases to avoid overloading the neutral.

Your rural transmission system that uses the earth for a return current path has nothing to do with the creation of phase separation at the utility panel. There are two wires there as well, it's just that the earth is used as the second wire because it is the cheapest way to get power to an isolated area.

The way you chose to hook up a scope across various hot to hot, or hot to neutral legs has nothing to do with what is referred to as power phases.

When you hook up a 3 phase motor to 3 phase power, it runs.

When you hook up a single phase motor to single phase power be it 120V or 240V, it needs additional circuits to start it. This is because there is no time shift created by having actual multiphase power to make the motor start.

That was one reason to have real two phase power was to start motors. Real two phase power has a time shift between the two phases.

Single phase power is single phase because all the voltages of the supply vary in unison. Three phase power has currents that reach their instantaneous peaks at different times. This time shift is what is referred to as a phase.

These are the definitions that are used to differentiate the systems.

If you really want to get picky, the single phase power we use is single phase, mid-point neutral.

The link below shows how single phase motors, be they 120V or 240V have to have additional circuits that 3 phase motors don't in order to start them.

http://www.clrwtr.com/Single-Phase-Electric-Motors-Characteristics-Applications.htm

If your really want to know about scope readings,

These guys are on it:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/archive/index.php/t-76153.html?

 

[MrMark]

Those are your definitions. All you've done is read some forum posts and, in fact, the forum posts disagree with you, at least many if not most of them.

You call it what you want. I'll call it two phases because it is two phases at the panel, irrespective of the fact that only a single phase was generated. The NEC and those in favor or calling it single phase focus on the generation end, largely to differentiate it from an older two phase system, I'll continue my focus on the user end where, as I stated in my very first post on this, there are two phases seen. The only way around calling it two phase at the user end is to define inverted waveforms as not being phase shifted. I don't agree with that. I don't agree with changing well-established definitions on phase relationships.

I'm not talking about motors. The panel has two phases, phase A to ground and it's mirror opposite, phase B to ground. The panel is one big MWBC and the neutral wouldn't carry the unbalanced load current unless the two hot legs were of opposite phase. The load current would be additive, rather than destructive (subtractive) if A and B were on the same phase.

 

[Hurricane_Whisperer]

Those are your definitions. All you've done is read some forum posts and, in fact, the forum posts disagree with you, at least many if not most of them.

You call it what you want. I'll call it two phases because it is two phases at the panel, irrespective of the fact that only a single phase was generated. The NEC and those in favor or calling it single phase focus on the generation end, largely to differentiate it from an older two phase system, I'll continue my focus on the user end where, as I stated in my very first post on this, there are two phases seen. The only way around calling it two phase at the user end is to define inverted waveforms as not being phase shifted. I don't agree with that. I don't agree with changing well-established definitions on phase relationships.

I'm not talking about motors. The panel has two phases, phase A to ground and it's mirror opposite, phase B to ground. The panel is one big MWBC and the neutral wouldn't carry the unbalanced load current unless the two hot legs were of opposite phase. The load current would be additive, rather than destructive (subtractive) if A and B were on the same phase.

They aren't my definitions, they are the definitions. As you pointed out, it is the way the NEC defines them. I am not the NEC.

Your definitions are your definitions. Mislabeling a leg as a phase is apt to cause confusion. If a single phase system is two phase in your definition, what do you call an actual two phase (mostly obsolete) system?

Those posts showed the confusion others were having until those who knew explained it to them.

A motor is an actual machine. The machine is ruled by the actual physics. It is not subject to the whim of where the scope leads are placed.

An electric motor in a single phase 120 or 240 volt circuit will not start unless it has additional circuits because there is no actual phase lag that creates the revolving magnetic field to start it.

This is inescapable. If there were real phases available, then these starting circuits would not be necessary as they are not necessary when real phases are available to start the motor.

Real two phase power, motor starts.
Real three phase power, motor starts.
Single phase power, motor needs a start capacitor, or some other clever trick to start it. The Leeson link does a good job of listing those tricks.

It doesn't matter whether you were talking about motors or not. The motor is an independent judge that is swayed only by physics and not frame of reference. The motor says that single phase mid-point neutral is still single phase.

 

[Lotek]

 

[MrMark]

I'm talking about panels and you are talking about a motor connected across a single phase. You must have read some posts on motors. I have no idea what you think it proves with the motor stuff. The motor is connected across a waveform having a single phase. The panel has two phases. It's a single phase motor and it's getting a single phase. Who cares@! There's nothing you are going to show me to overcome the absolute truth that there are two phases at the panel. And that's all I've said from the beginning. I call that two phase and I don't care what anyone else calls it.

There is no whim about where the scope leads are placed. The scope leads are placed in exactly the same places as the 120V circuits in the panel, Line A to neutral and Line B to neutral, and those are two distinct phases on the scope.

 

[472scout]

I don't get the need for the argument. There are explanations all over the internet on why it is called single phase, not to mention that all governing agencies refer to it as single phase. Show me one government agency that calls it something else.

 

[Garage5.9]

What about calling a refer a ice box

 

[tdkkart]

What about calling a refer a ice box

I dunno, does it have wheels under it??
If it does, is it a reefer,or is it a trailer??

 

[tdkkart]

There is no whim about where the scope leads are placed. The scope leads are placed in exactly the same places as the 120V circuits in the panel, Line A to neutral and Line B to neutral, and those are two distinct phases on the scope.

This guy knows what he's talking about, and is trying to tell those of you that are blinded by the NEC nomenclature what is actually happening........if there were not two phases there you could not measure 240V, or 220v, or 238 or whatever the F^&k you are trying to measure.

 

[kaffine]

There is no whim about where the scope leads are placed. The scope leads are placed in exactly the same places as the 120V circuits in the panel, Line A to neutral and Line B to neutral, and those are two distinct phases on the scope.

You only need 1 scope lead to check 240V single phase power. The probe should connected to the line A and the refrence lead would be connected to line B. Make sure your scope can do this before attempting some will not like being hooked up that way. The problem comes from who ever decided to use a center tap transformer. Since a 240V load doesn't use the nuetral froget about the center tap. It is just 1 phase.

 

[Alchymist]

There is no whim about where the scope leads are placed. The scope leads are placed in exactly the same places as the 120V circuits in the panel, Line A to neutral and Line B to neutral, and those are two distinct phases on the scope.

This guy knows what he's talking about, and is trying to tell those of you that are blinded by the NEC nomenclature what is actually happening........if there were not two phases there you could not measure 240V, or 220v, or 238 or whatever the F^&k you are trying to measure.

Were I to follow this line of thinking I would have to unlearn a lot of what I learned in the past 50 years. Just sayin.....but you-all call it what you want, and I'll go my way .....everybody happy.

 

[pprince]

After reading 6 pages of this stuff I still don't know if it single phase or two phase

 

[tdkkart]

After reading 6 pages of this stuff I still don't know if it single phase or two phase

It's 2 phases, but we call it single phase to make it simple for those who can't understand..........

 

[Stuart in MN]

Wikipedia explains polyphase (two phase, three phase, or more) as well as single phase (or split phase) pretty well:

A polyphase system must provide a defined direction of phase rotation, so mirror image voltages do not count towards the phase order. A 3-wire system with two phase conductors 180 degrees apart is still only single phase.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphase_system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power

 

[Alchymist]

It's 2 phases, but we call it single phase to make it simple for those who can't understand..........

Actually it's single phase, but we let those who won't understand call it two phase.

 

[Bull]

What do classrooms look like in schools offering courses about electricity? Do they look like this? Because, no one is learning anything via these methods of instruction.

I, as an electrical ignoramus, would like to learn some of these things, but this is a poor method.