Ceiling speakers for shop

[crazybrit]

I'm considering installing a pair of ceiling speakers into my shop above my work area. I'll setup some kind of streaming audio player (Raspberry Pi based or similar) to drive them.

The shop is a 9ftx24ft extension onto the side of the existing 11ft x 24ft garage. It's all one open space. The 11x24ft garage area is full of motorcycles and bicycles. The shop space is just the 9ft x 24ft area.

I'm curious on power output? Most of the embedded media players can do upto 2x20W before they need an external amp. Most of the speakers in the $25-50 per pair range are well over 150w per speaker with some upto 300w (which is obviously massive overkill).

The fan on my Thermal Arc 186 TIG is always on and loud. The water cooler is pretty loud. Then there is any mills/lathes running etc.

Curious what others have found necessary.

 

[ncfireman1918]

I'm shopping for an audio setup for my shop right now as well. I'm mainly looking at used PA (DJ) equipment, because my preferences skew towards the loud end of the spectrum. That being said, I recently installed an in ceiling setup in my father-in-law's shop. His is a bit bigger than mine (70x60), and has a framed in commercial style kitchen for parties. I went with an inexpensive Yamaha receiver with Blutooth and dual zone outputs. I did 2 middle of the road Polk audio in ceiling speakers in the kitchen, and 2 outdoor rated Polk speakers in the shop area. I was pleasantly surprised at the output from both sets of speakers. We can have music in the kitchen for prep work/parties and/or music in the shop. The volume is good for most situations we have encountered so far. All in, it was around $700. Everything was purchased from Crutchfield for convenience, I probably could have shaved a few bucks if I'd shopped around.

 

[crazybrit]

We're way different use cases:
- I'm looking at a streaming media player, probably based on Raspberry Pi. A million miles from DJ equipment.

- My sq ft is also much smaller.

You need a DAC on the Raspberry Pi to produce any audio, the DACs that have a built in AMP max out at 2x20W. If you want more power, you need a DAC plus an external amp.

 

[crazybrit]

The general rule of thumb I've found is a room 18 feet by 18 feet, with 9-foot ceilings needs between 2x25W to 2x40W depending on the efficiency of the speakers.

I'm baffled by the power ratings of some of these ceiling speakers. I guess it's the "more watts is better" where people have 400W home theater amps and never turn them beyond 2?

I suspect I'm probably fine with a 2x20W amp and a really efficient set of ceiling speakers. My PC speakers are 6W each and plenty loud though a PC sound card has a higher power output than a RPi.

 

[Dancing Bear]

There's a few different options you could pursue here ... you could use the DAC as a pre-amp and use the line outout from the DAC to go to a 2.1 or 5.1 home theater receiver to power the speakers. Pretty simple and effective. Some newer receivers have bluetooth built in so you may even be able to stream the audio over bluetooth from the Pi to the receiver.

 

[niget2002]

^ What Dancing Bear said

 

[crazybrit]

Some newer receivers have bluetooth built in so you may even be able to stream the audio over bluetooth from the Pi to the receiver.

I've never had good experiences with bluetooth in a clean environment. With welder, mills, lathes running it additionally seems like a high-interference environment.

Same reason I don't want to go with bluetooth speakers.

 

[crazybrit]

A home stereo receiver seems like massive overkill for the sq ft I have plus takes up a lot of space which I don't have.

I'm really looking for a much more compact option. There are plenty of compact 2x50W pcbs. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07D7VWQWX/?tag=atomicindus08-20

I'd like to house the pi, the amp and a 120v to 5/12v psu in a small enclosure that I could wall mount. I'd probably wire the ceiling speakers inside the wall cavity, bring it out to a pair of RCA jacks on a wall plate.

Again gets into the "how many watts do you need" question. I have to think 2x50W is more than adequate.

 

[AMFJ]

I have a 24x24x12(ceiling height) garage. I have 4 8" in-ceiling speakers. They are run off a home receiver that is rated at 70 watts (20hz-20khz) per channel. Even when I have it very loud, I don't have the volume very far up. I'm not getting close to using all 70 watts.

There are a lot of things in your favor as far as getting volume up inside a garage--with the biggest being you are likely surrounded by hard surfaces so you don't have a lot of absorption going on. It is generally all one room, so you are not dealing with walls blocking sounds. You are not doing audiophile listening--especially with ceiling mounted speakers. It is basically background noise and something to sing along with while you are working. I'd bet if you threw an alexa type device out there and listened to music it would be decent enough to get you by. So really anything over that and you will be fine.

 

[esvee]

FWIW I pair my phone with an amazon alexa that's hooked up to a set of speakers. Works wonders and has been far more reliable than AirPi configurations I've used.

 

[MongoTA]

Slightly different path here.

About 20 years ago I started with SONOS. Today I have quite a few modules. In my shop I have a SONOS Connect AMP that drives two fairly low end bookshelf speakers. It’s plenty loud. It’s a self contained amp that can drive one or two pair (if you watch the ohm load) of speakers. The only SONOS AMP that I use to drive two pair of speakers is the one out by my pool.

SONOS streams pretty much any streaming service via its own mesh network. I was welding today and neither MIG/TIG welding, plasma cutter, nor any of my woodworking tools affect the signal.

Edit to add...I don’t have ceiling speakers, but I do have a couple pair of in-wall speakers on the 1st floor of my house. Polk. Been using them for 25 years, no complaints.

 

[Dancing Bear]

if you're getting 50w per channel of clean sound, that should be more than sufficient for volume and clarity in a space that size. As far as the small enclosure with a 120v to 5/12v inverter, that sounds like a good idea. Get a small 2 channel or 2.1 channel PCB amp and mount it in there too. Should be a nice setup

 

[crazybrit]

if you're getting 50w per channel of clean sound, that should be more than sufficient for volume and clarity in a space that size. As far as the small enclosure with a 120v to 5/12v inverter, that sounds like a good idea. Get a small 2 channel or 2.1 channel PCB amp and mount it in there too. Should be a nice setup

^yup^ Probably go for a design based on the TDA7492. This is overkill but should work nicely. Regardless it needs a fairly decent quality 24V power supply. Then I need to find some fairly efficient speakers.

 

[charbar]

if you're getting 50w per channel of clean sound, that should be more than sufficient for volume and clarity in a space that size. As far as the small enclosure with a 120v to 5/12v inverter, that sounds like a good idea. Get a small 2 channel or 2.1 channel PCB amp and mount it in there too. Should be a nice setup

I agree with this 100%.

Only thing different I would say:
If you can get a DAC with a decent built in amplifier of 20 watts or so per channel I would just try that first before buying an external amp. You might be surprised. Some decently efficient speakers would probably do it.
I'm more on the 'car audio' side of things, but a lot of aftermarket head units only put out about 15wrms and with a high sensitivity rated speaker, can still get pretty decent output.

But that also depends on the price difference of a DAC with built in amp compared to one without. Those little PCB amps are pretty affordable.

 

[crazybrit]

I agree with this 100%.

If you can get a DAC with a decent built in amplifier of 20 watts or so per channel I would just try that first before buying an external amp. You might be surprised. Some decently efficient speakers would probably do it.

Yup. The trick is finding some efficient speakers.

 

[Regnar]

I dont have any in ceiling speakers but I do have 2 Echo Dots in the garage. Gets plenty loud enough for me, voice activated and supports streaming services. For 40 dollars they hang on the wall and are out of mind.

Now the sickness doesnt stop there. I have 20 in the house. I have received them over the years from family members. They make up a great intercom system and will play the same music with multi room enabled. I can walk up and down stairs, go to the patio, garage all listening to the same music. I like to think I have a choirs.

 

[Dancing Bear]

twenty echo dots? my god, I thought my 8 (one in each bedroom, one in bathroom, living room, kitchen, one in dining room and one in garage) was a lot!

 

[Dancing Bear]

to expand on the alexa & echo devices thread, if you go for the larger 4th gen Echo (not echo dot, the bigger Echo) buying two of them and setting up stereo sound would give you a surprising amount of volume and would be really easy to set up

 

[crazybrit]

[edit: ignore, I called the manufacturer and 5" ceiling gap is apparently fine for the spec'd 3.7" speaker depth].

Does anyone know about ceiling depth? I'd not considered this.

I bought a set of 8" speakers from Amazon. The instructions spec a 3.7" depth.

I drilled a small hole where I'd want to install and I have 5" from the underside of the drywall to the underside of the roof plywood. It feels like there is batt insulation installed also.

 

[Bert_]

All I can say is pay attention to the sensitivity rating of the speakers.

93 db/w/m will do 113db/1m with 20 watts. That's pretty loud.

An 87db/w/m speaker will only do 107db with the same 20 watts. Would take 80 watts to be as loud as the first speaker.

 

[crazybrit]

All I can say is pay attention to the sensitivity rating of the speakers.

93 db/w/m will do 113db/1m with 20 watts. That's pretty loud.

An 87db/w/m speaker will only do 107db with the same 20 watts. Would take 80 watts to be as loud as the first speaker.

I know

I ended up returning the 8" speakers (93db) as they were way too large, over 11" with the surrounds. I'd not looked at the physical width and they looked ridiculous in the small ceiling area.

I need something which is 6-7" physical diameter. So a 5-6" speaker. Hard to find with good specs. I don't want amplified speakers or Bluetooth.

Considering these, suggestions/thoughts welcomed. I also depends on how accurate each mfg is with their specs?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004RZI9FW/?tag=atomicindus08-20 88db 65Hz-20kHz
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01JH3PS1G/?tag=atomicindus08-20. 90db 60hz-20khz

There is not much on Amazon and their size filter is useless. There was a Polk but 16 ohm. Of the two above the Pyle pdic4 seems to have best specs. The amp I'm using is only 35wpc but clearly I'll get best bang for that buck with efficient speakers.

 

[fteufert]

Find a used computer subwoofer and speaker set.

That's what I use, and it is hooked up to an old cellphone connected to wireless

 

[crazybrit]

Find a used computer subwoofer and speaker set.

Not interested in this.

 

[LX-Markham]

Nevermind

 

[kngelv]

you’re getting a lot of advice here but trust me on this these are the speakers you want power them however you want they disperse sound better than almost any other in ceiling speaker especially for the price very high-quality.

James

https://rslspeakers.com/products/c34e-edgeless-in-ceiling-speaker/

 

[crazybrit]

you’re getting a lot of advice here but trust me on this these are the speakers you want power them however you want they disperse sound better than almost any other in ceiling speaker especially for the price very high-quality.



James



https://rslspeakers.com/products/c34e-edgeless-in-ceiling-speaker/

They look nice but $250 pair is more than I'm looking to spend.

OTOH $40 pair seems way too cheap.

Sent from my MI PAD 4 using Tapatalk

 

[crazybrit]

Put the floor speakers into the ceiling

[.

Please reread first post on size of my shop. 8' ceiling.

Sent from my MI PAD 4 using Tapatalk

 

[peterp]

A home stereo receiver seems like massive overkill for the sq ft I have plus takes up a lot of space which I don't have.

I'm really looking for a much more compact option. There are plenty of compact 2x50W pcbs. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07D7VWQWX/?tag=atomicindus08-20

I'd like to house the pi, the amp and a 120v to 5/12v psu in a small enclosure that I could wall mount. I'd probably wire the ceiling speakers inside the wall cavity, bring it out to a pair of RCA jacks on a wall plate.

Again gets into the "how many watts do you need" question. I have to think 2x50W is more than adequate.

For an amp, 20 (real) wpc is more than enough. I wanted to do the same thing with a 2.1 PCB amp for my deck system which had 2 speakers (Polk Atrium 6) and a passive sub (TIC 8" in-ground passive sub under deck). The PCB 2.1 amp sounded great. All of those T-amps amps have different Volt/Amp limits -- as long as Volt * Amps of the power supply you choose (within the amp's limits) is 50 or more, it will go very loud. Power supplies of any amp/volt combo are available on Amazon for <$15 shipped.

Although it sounded great, I didn't use the PCB amp simply because the shafts were too short to mount it in wood and I wanted to do a custom cabinet (it will mount fine on plastic), so I went with this Nobsound 2.1 amp instead (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07PN9LZ4R/?tag=atomicindus08-20). It is absolutely awesome. I have it completely hidden -- it defaults to the one RCA input (for your DAC/iPhone/etc) and it switches to Bluetooth automatically if you connect to it with your phone (no need to every change inputs) -- set volume level with DAC or phone. The bass/treble/sub-level/sub crossover allow you to dial in the sound exactly.

This amp is for 2.1 (speakers plus passive sub). Nobsound also makes 2.0 amp fro slightly less, but if you really want good sound, I would recommend doing small speakers and a passive sub with the amp above. Even a very inexpensive sub (plus tuning bass/treble/sub levels) makes a world of difference in sound quality.

You can also add a powered sub to a 2.0 system for an outside system (deck/garage) being able to adjust everything at the amp and not having an amp built into the sub is an advantage in my opinion.

 

[crazybrit]

I ordered these speakers: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01JH3PS1G/?tag=atomicindus08-20

The Raspberry Pi 4 and hat AMP are on backorder. Gives me time to get the wiring done.

I ordered this PSU: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071JLNB9R/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[peterp]

I know

I ended up returning the 8" speakers (93db) as they were way too large, over 11" with the surrounds. I'd not looked at the physical width and they looked ridiculous in the small ceiling area.

I need something which is 6-7" physical diameter. So a 5-6" speaker. Hard to find with good specs. I don't want amplified speakers or Bluetooth.

Considering these, suggestions/thoughts welcomed. I also depends on how accurate each mfg is with their specs?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004RZI9FW/?tag=atomicindus08-20 88db 65Hz-20kHz
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01JH3PS1G/?tag=atomicindus08-20. 90db 60hz-20khz

There is not much on Amazon and their size filter is useless. There was a Polk but 16 ohm. Of the two above the Pyle pdic4 seems to have best specs. The amp I'm using is only 35wpc but clearly I'll get best bang for that buck with efficient speakers.

I know you are not going to want to hear this at all, but I have never heard ceiling speakers sound good, regardless of cost. The problem isn't the speaker itself, but the fact that (unless you take very careful steps), there is no proper enclosure around the ceiling speakers to generate good sound.

Sound-wise, I would recommend on-wall Polk Atrium 4's -- they are small, mil-spec weatherproof, sound great, available in white or black. I would pair them with a passive sub per my prior post as no small speaker is going to put out a lot of bass (especially a ceiling speaker without a proper baffle).

If you really want in-wall, this looks amazing for a passive in-wall sub for $49 (driven by amp in my prior post) -> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008MWLPCK/?tag=atomicindus08-20

These are weatherproof ceiling speakers from same brand - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001W97JY8/?tag=atomicindus08-20

OSD ceiling speakers:

OSD in-wall sub

 

[crazybrit]

If you really want in-wall

I don't. I have no free wall space. All the wall space is covered with shelves as I already stated.

I ordered the 4" ceiling speakers mentioned 2 posts ago. They'll have to do.

 

[peterp]

I ordered these speakers: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01JH3PS1G/?tag=atomicindus08-20

The Raspberry Pi 4 and hat AMP are on backorder. Gives me time to get the wiring done.

I ordered this PSU: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071JLNB9R/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Since the PCB amp is on back order, you might want to consider getting a PCB amp with bass and treble controls instead. In an acoustically perfect room, with perfect speakers, you technically don't need them, but in a echo-prone garage with small ceiling speakers, you should be able to get better sound quality out of what you have using the bass/treble controls.

This one for $21.95 is in stock and has bass/treble (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B088BP48Z9/?tag=atomicindus08-20).

The amp also has Bluetooth 5.0. Yes, I know you said you had issues with Bluetooth, but never hurts to have it (when it is essentially free) just in case you want it down the line. Bluetooth 5.0 has come a long way since the early days, should work fine within 30 ft.

 

[crazybrit]

Since the PCB amp is on back order

So is the Pi4. So I'm waiting anyways.

Thanks for the recommendations. If I'm not happy with the setup I went with, I have options thanks to your suggestions.

 

[PoorUB]

I hope it works out for you!

For years in my shop I ran a 90watt per channel Onkyo amp with larger home stereo speakers. The problem in a shop is with all the other noise the music gets drowned out. With your 4" speakers you probably will not hear them well anywhere other than standing right below them unless you have an extremely quiet shop.

 

[crazybrit]

I hope it works out for you!

For years in my shop I ran a 90watt per channel Onkyo amp with larger home stereo speakers. The problem in a shop is with all the other noise the music gets drowned out. With your 4" speakers you probably will not hear them well anywhere other than standing right below them unless you have an extremely quiet shop.

My workbench is immediately under them. So thats the plan.

 

[Dancing Bear]

Just a little input on the Pyle speakers, I'm sure they will work in the application you're looking for, and sound decent, but me personally I've never been a fan of them. They dont sound bad per se, but I've known them to be quite unreliable even when powered properly. I went through quite a few of them installing them for customers and friends/family who wanted their stereos fixed/upgraded, and most were decently satisfied with the sound but id say 6/10 of them had a speaker die randomly or popping+buzzing issues after a couple of months.

Now admittedly 95% of my experience was with the Pyle car audio products and not their home products, so maybe the issues dont correlate. Just something to keep in mind, hang onto that receipt.

 

[CoogarXR]

Just get everything and hook it up to the 20w onboard amp and see how it sounds. If it's not enough, you'll have to add an amplifier. Not much else to say since you've shot down about everything else.

"All watts are not created equal". Just keep that in mind. I have a NAD 60w amp that blows my mind. I have A/B'd it up against tons of other higher and lower powered amplifiers, and it remains my favorite.

Just see if your 20w is enough and go from there.

 

[crazybrit]

Not much else to say since you've shot down about everything else.

Just a little input on the Pyle speakers ... just something to keep in mind, hang onto that receipt.

Thanks. Appreciate the advice. I was 50/50 on them but wanted to just move forward.

 

[adsinnott1]

I have an older Bose 5.1 system in my shop and it is much louder than I could ever imagine needing. 4 surrounds mounted on the walls, center mounted under the flat screen and the sub under the workbench.

Sounds like your setup will be nice as well. Many, many options out there.

 

[crazybrit]

Sounds like your setup will be nice as well. Many, many options out there.

Thanks. The last time I gave audio any thought was in 1985 when I bought a Rega Planar 3 turntable, Creek 4040 amp and Heybrook HB-1 speakers

The left side of the shop where I have my workbenches is only about 80 sq ft in area (out of 200 sq ft) with a 7ft ceiling and that's where I'd be working when listening to audio. I have no wall space in this area as the wall area is covered by shelves (the shop is packed). Which is why I "shot down" the wall speaker idea.

The right 200 sq ft half of the shop is where the motorcycles are, if I'm working over there there won't be any power tools running and I don't run the engines inside. Will I be able to hear the audio from there, dunno, we shall see (or hear ).

I may well need to improve it, but need to start somewhere. If I need an external AMP, then I'll need to replace the Pi DAC/AMP hat with a DAC hat which can feed an external AMP.

Given the small area, I felt speakers over 6" in size just looked incongruous. So this is why I "shot down" the 8" speaker idea.

Thanks for everyones help!