creatureofthewheel
Active member
I aquired an extension with the Challenger USA* stamped on it. anyone have info on this brand? it appears to be 60's era.
Challenger brand?
- Thread starter creatureofthewheel
- Start date
Challenger is a brand name marketed by Proto (Ingersoll Rand) at least up to 1983, because I have the catalog. They were mainly a home owners series and had a very limited amount of tools. Just the basics.
I'm not sure if they originated with Proto.
lbgradwell
Well-known member
Challenger was originally one of the Penens brands (along with Fleet). When Plomb (Proto before the forced name change) acquired Penens in the early 1940s, Challenger was included...
I know that Penens made Challenger into the 1960s, but I believe the name was mothballed for a while before being revived by Stanley after they acquired Proto in 1984.
I know that Penens made Challenger into the 1960s, but I believe the name was mothballed for a while before being revived by Stanley after they acquired Proto in 1984.
The challenger name was still used prior to 1984 when Proto was owned by IR. I remember seeing their stuff in the late seventies and one of the dealers thet I use to buy from always had a Challenger display in their store in the early eighties.
T56 Impala
Well-known member
I have some "newer" Challenger stuff. Say 1998 -1999. Its stamped "Made in the U.S.A. and is pretty good stuff. I have a full 1/2 drive set, including red box, and it has done everything asked of it and it still looks new.
The challenger name was still used prior to 1984 when Proto was owned by IR. I remember seeing their stuff in the late seventies and one of the dealers thet I use to buy from always had a Challenger display in their store in the early eighties.
Wow Dex,
Do you have those catalogs, or just the photo?
I dig that Meyers Manx and the Ford "Mystery Machine". Brings back memories...
I own them. Anything you would like to see, just ask and I will post a pic.
lbgradwell
Well-known member
Right, Dex; should have mentioned that!
IR controlled Penens from 1963 to 1984. I have a 3/8" set that I believe is IR vintage. (And a Fleet set from the same era with very similar packaging is on the way from Jason!) Maybe the name was never out of use, but it seems to me that I didn't see them for a while...
In any case, after they acquired the brand, IR wanted to tout the "heritage" of the brand to improve its public perception, and that is why we see the Proto-Challenger and then the "Challenger by Proto" markings as appear on your catalogue. (We see the same strategy to this day in the current Blackhawk™ by Proto® line.)
And that brings up another point...
For reasons I do not yet understand, Stanley decided to discontinue the Challenger label a few years back (Does anyone know exactly when?) in favour of the Blackhawk name. I had thought it might be connected to the "Made in USA" scandal and they wanted to try to bury a name that had been tainted, but Blackhawk was also named in that FTC complaint, so..?
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lbgradwell
Well-known member
Your set may say "USA", but if you're correct with its age, there's a good chance you have one of the "FTC Complaint" examples!!!
I think they discontinued it about 5-8 years ago. Stanley sold a bunch of it on ebay at rock bottom prices. This was before ebay buyers went nutty with their bids. I picked up a box end wrench set 3/8-1" for $12 and also a combo wrench set, 1/4 drive set, and a few other things for cheap. Stanley had a lot of the stuff so this is what helped keep the bids down. I'm thinking this stuff was for sale somewhere around 2001-2002. Shortly after this is when I noticed ebay prices starting to escalate, probably within a year of this.
The box wrenches were satin finish and I keep them as spares. I gave most of the other stuff away as gifts.
I do know they were using the Challenger name as far back as 1951. The older stuff seems to have been better quality than the stuff I have from ebay. Could be the FTC thing. I think Stanley's defense was that they were "finishing" the tools in the U.S. and that is why they were marked that way. FTC said it wasn't good enough because the law states "virtually all" and "finishing" didn't qualify.
The box wrenches were satin finish and I keep them as spares. I gave most of the other stuff away as gifts.
I do know they were using the Challenger name as far back as 1951. The older stuff seems to have been better quality than the stuff I have from ebay. Could be the FTC thing. I think Stanley's defense was that they were "finishing" the tools in the U.S. and that is why they were marked that way. FTC said it wasn't good enough because the law states "virtually all" and "finishing" didn't qualify.
eschoendorff
Well-known member
I bought a Challenger-branded combo wrench at a pawn shop just to have a representative of the brand. it seems to be identical to my earlier matte-finished Blackhawk wrenches.
ricleh
Well-known member
I have a full set of Challenger metric combination wrenches in a plastic roll pouch. I bought these wrenches in 1971. The roll pouch says Challenger by Proto. They are very good wrenches and have served me well for over 35 years.
Rick
Rick
ricleh
Well-known member
Picture of my Challenger combo wrenches bought in 1971.
eschoendorff
Well-known member
Picture of my Challenger combo wrenches bought in 1971.
Mine would look right at home in that set- nice example by the way. Even Merkava would like those!
There have been TONS of these tools making their way from liquidation.com to eBay. I have purchased several lots of wrenches and sockets, and the Challenger brand is well-represented in them.
Here is an example of a current auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/COMBINATION-OPE...ryZ29527QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I have purchased from this seller in the past, and plenty of Challenger and Blackhawk in the mix. All USA-made.
They are not as shiny as the truck brands, but have the feel of quality. I recently passed some along to a member here...perhaps he'll chime in.
old salvage
Well-known member
Right, Dex; should have mentioned that!
IR controlled Penens from 1963 to 1984. I have a 3/8" set that I believe is IR vintage. (And a Fleet set from the same era with very similar packaging is on the way from Jason!) Maybe the name was never out of use, but it seems to me that I didn't see them for a while...
In any case, after they acquired the brand, IR wanted to tout the "heritage" of the brand to improve its public perception, and that is why we see the Proto-Challenger and then the "Challenger by Proto" markings as appear on your catalogue. (We see the same strategy to this day in the current Blackhawk™ by Proto® line.)
Interesting. I thought that Penens ceased making hand tools when they were aquired by IR. Did they simply stop marking stuff 'Penens' ?
Picture of my Challenger combo wrenches bought in 1971.
Beautiful set!
They look great just the way they are. Remind me of dad's toolbox circa 1968.
Picture of my Challenger combo wrenches bought in 1971.
Thats a nice set of metric wrenches. Interestingly in my 1983 catalog this set is only available in a 11 pc set (#6103M - 7mm to 17mm) and the largest metric wrench that Challenger had available was the 19mm available in the 7pc set. The roll was red instead of black.
lbgradwell
Well-known member
Hmm....
billymade posted the link to a Proto history site on another thread. I had seen it before, but while perusing it again, I noticed (under the 1967-76 Overview) they claim that IR ditched all Proto consumer brands except Challenger "in short order" after acquisition. This must have included Fleet...
But the Fleet set I have is in a plastic box (as is the Challenger set of apparent concurrent production)... Assuming "in short order" means a year or two, the set would date from around 1966-67. Would a socket set really have come in a plastic box at that time? I always assumed the sets were from the late 70s to early 80s due to that!
billymade posted the link to a Proto history site on another thread. I had seen it before, but while perusing it again, I noticed (under the 1967-76 Overview) they claim that IR ditched all Proto consumer brands except Challenger "in short order" after acquisition. This must have included Fleet...
But the Fleet set I have is in a plastic box (as is the Challenger set of apparent concurrent production)... Assuming "in short order" means a year or two, the set would date from around 1966-67. Would a socket set really have come in a plastic box at that time? I always assumed the sets were from the late 70s to early 80s due to that!
lbgradwell
Well-known member
That's a nice set of wrenches, ricleh!
I admired them and your truly astonishing collection of other tools before on the "Toolbox" thread!
I admired them and your truly astonishing collection of other tools before on the "Toolbox" thread!
ricleh
Well-known member
That's a nice set of wrenches, ricleh!
I admired them and your truly astonishing collection of other tools before on the "Toolbox" thread!
Thank you. I started buying my tools in the mid sixties. I have tried to take good care of them so they would last for a long time.
Rick
old salvage
Well-known member
lbgradwell
Well-known member
Good work, Phil!
Does the ad indicate if P&C is still an IR brand at that time? If not, does it say who the mother company is?
lbgradwell
Well-known member
It is a thick looking plastic though.
Yep, it's pretty thick. Do you think that indicates a possible 1960s date-of-manufacture?
T56 Impala
Well-known member
That's interesting. I bought these for work from Grainger I think. I supplied some tools to my employees. Mostly air tools, hoses, carts and things like that. I only picked up a few hand tools like this. I wonder how long the sat on a shelf before I bought them. Is there a date code on these things. Maybe I could narrow it down a bit.
Were they singled out by the FTC or were there a lot of complaints about false labeling? I know little about the history and I'm curious.
lbgradwell
Well-known member
No mother company listed. It's a short paragraph under the "new products" section.
"A new five-piece set of long, flat-handle box wrenches is offered by P & C Tool Co., P.O. Box 22066, Portland, Ore. 97222. "
It has a poor, small, black and white picture which doesn't give much detail.
"A new five-piece set of long, flat-handle box wrenches is offered by P & C Tool Co., P.O. Box 22066, Portland, Ore. 97222. "
It has a poor, small, black and white picture which doesn't give much detail.
lbgradwell
Well-known member
Yeah, I misspoke here; I meant the "historic" Penens brands of Penens, Fleet & Challenger. In truth, Penens as an on-going entity likely ceased to exist once acquired by Plomb/Pendleton Tool (but I don't know this for certain).
I don't know when the Penens brand itself went out of production, but it was likely prior to 1957 since it is not mentioned in this Pendleton Tool Merger ad from that year:
Nor do I know when they (whoever "they" were at the time!) stopped making Fleet, but it seems it was later than Penens and Fleet may very well have been one of the "consumer" brands IR chose to let die after 1964.
And now Phil has ascertained that at least one of those sub-brands - P&C - made it to at least 1968...
old salvage
Well-known member
It jives with the limited experience I have. Wasnt it in the mid 70's that those thin sheet metal boxes with the chocolate sampler grade inserts started appearing?
old salvage
Well-known member
lbgradwell
Well-known member
I have a crappy Herbrand set like that from 1973... I would have though the plastic boxes came later, but maybe not!
Heh, i could see this spilling all over like the Craftsman mystery.
Let's hope so!
Coach James
Well-known member
"(My friends don't understand my tool addiction & are threatening an "intervention". I know you guys understand...)"
I love that one!!
Coach
I love that one!!
Coach
OP
creatureofthewheel
Active member
great info ya'll thanx a lot. sounds like good and contreversial stuff.
They got slapped the second time. The order required them to provide a copy of the ruling to every officer and employee having anything to do with tool production, labeling, or advertising. They are also required to submit reports of production quantities and locations for something like the next 20 years...
The ruling did not require them to recall any mislabeled or misrepresented tools, though. I have bought quite a bit of Stanley/Proto/Blackhawk on eBay, and some of them are most likely "FTC Tools".
I guess there is no way to really know for sure.
lbgradwell
Well-known member
It is a thick looking plastic though.
Well, thanks to some vintage ads sent to me today by philw, this mystery has been solved!
These ads show the Challenger set to have been a "ViP Special" set. The same ad also shows a Vlchek "Checker Special" set which is identical but for the name! Although the ads aren't dated, it does show these sets to be from the Pendleton era. Pendleton acquired Vlchek in 1958, and already owned Challenger & Fleet. But since Pendleton was bought by Ingersoll-Rand in 1964, we now have a possible range of 1958-1964 for the Challenger & Fleet sets pictured above. And Alloy Artifacts says "under Pendleton the Vlchek brand remained in production, with the Vlchek factory continuing production of tools for the Vlchek brand, as well as contract production for Fleet Tools and possibly other Proto brands." Judging from the Challenger box, I'd guess all three were made in the same Vlchek factory!
So, good call there old salvage; those "rust-proof, scratch-proof Impact Poly-Boxes" were indeed from the 60s!
old salvage
Well-known member
Oh nice!
Thanks Ibgradwell
Old advertisements are sometimes an even bigger help in dating things than catalogs.
A few yrs back I had the case for an old Federal Products Corp micrometer.
It was hard black plastic (not bakelite) and had the same stinky smell and powdery residue that old amber screwdriver handles seem to get.
Again it was black . I tried in vain to get the smell out and the whitish film got worse so I had to discard it. I later found out it was from the mid to late 40's. So when you see plastic tool cases remember they may be a bit old.
Thanks Ibgradwell
Old advertisements are sometimes an even bigger help in dating things than catalogs.
A few yrs back I had the case for an old Federal Products Corp micrometer.
It was hard black plastic (not bakelite) and had the same stinky smell and powdery residue that old amber screwdriver handles seem to get.
Again it was black . I tried in vain to get the smell out and the whitish film got worse so I had to discard it. I later found out it was from the mid to late 40's. So when you see plastic tool cases remember they may be a bit old.
speed bump
Well-known member
I have a bunch of Challenger wrenches that I have aquired for next to nothing over the years however my absolute Challenfer tool is the little 1/4" drive rachets that you can buy for next to nothing on Ebay. The mechanism on that rachet it finer than the one in my SO TH737.