Channellock quality slipping?

[Wamsutta]

They make a comfortable pair of duck bill pliers. I sure hope the quality hasn't slipped on them.

 

[xin]

I would rather have made in USA than some china cheap imitation any day of the week. There is no tool on earth that can hold up to abuse (and the famous line) the old (fill-in-the-blank) was better quality.

Still beats the knock off impostors that use American names made in 3rd world countries.

 

[skunkape1]

I'm slightly curious how cost cutting has affected these models they've made for years. It's unlikely they redesigned the forging dies/etc. as there is very little room to save $$ there other than clearly using less steel. They are still forged in basically the same process. So that really leaves using a cheaper grade of steel, no? It doesn't seem to be a smart value proposition... someone uses channel locks for 20 years buys new ones and they last 2 uses before they're underperforming? Seems like a pretty good way to guarantee you won't be in business or will be rebranding Chinese **** in a few years.

Not arguing with anyone, just really curious how and why they exactly cut costs. These aren't exactly complex products with a lot of hidden parts or that many different ways to make them.

It is pretty simple. Less and lower quality steel. Less or no alloying elements, which I suspect may have been done and that's why new Channellocks have that varnish **** on them. The alloys reduce corrosion and if they are removed, the varnish is a method to account for the loss of resistance to corrosion. Less time spent finishing the tool, deburring and polishing etc.

The reason. Produce more product while keeping prices as low as possible to compete.

Some of the small town hardware stores around me have some C-lock pliers from 20 years ago on the shelves right next to newly produced models. The quality difference is apparent, and I find no joy in saying that.

 

[M6erfan]

I would rather have made in USA than some china cheap imitation any day of the week. There is no tool on earth that can hold up to abuse (and the famous line) the old (fill-in-the-blank) was better quality.

Still beats the knock off impostors that use American names made in 3rd world countries.

Plenty of alternatives made in USA, or Germany, Japan, Taiwan etc. Personally, I have no dog in this fight, just sayin' you don't have to look to '3rd world countries' for hand tool needs.

 

[Interceptor]

In the case of my needle nose and linesmans, the metal is too soft. The teeth become deformed easily, and the needle nose bend, then break. The diagonals seem to be the opposite, the cutting edges were too hard and the result is a chipped tip. I think I read somewhere the tips are induction hardened. I don't know enough about metallurgy to comment any more about it, except that there is a fine balance between too hard and too soft to get the ideal toughness for a given application.

I haven't bought any Channellock groove joints in a very long time so I cannot say if they've gotten thinner/lighter. I have lots of them and probably will never need any more. I think mine all have the stamped identification. I'm not sure when they went to laser etching, I can only assume because it's cheaper and they don't want their name to be on the tool in a few years when it's worn out.

 

[kythri]

None of my recent Channellock additions exhibit any of the negative claims mentioned here.

 

[mixerfixer]

"I make a serious effort to buy USA made tools when possible, but I don't think I will buy any more of their stuff if this is what I'm going to get."

Same thing here. I have had a set off 337 diagonal cutters close by and used all the time for 30 years. Noticed local Ace Hardware was replacing Channel Locks with Ace brands so I grabbed last pair of 337's they had.

Not impressed with new cutters. Fit and finsih isn't very good at all

 

[anndel]

I have a pair of long nose pliers and diagonal cutters and they seem fine for the price. No it's not Snap On or Knipex quality but they work and are cheap.

 

[Jim c]

Cruddy quality of finish and sharp edges can be cleaned up with sand paper or a file etc.... But he is talking about the quality of the steel, which obviously, has been decreased; if the new pliers tool steel mushes or crushes or just bends and yields ( this is what is happening when cutting edges blunt over) when you are using them for the very same things that you have done with your older pliers then, unfortunately, it would seem that even channelock has now given in to lower quality manufacturing. This really is a shame. Channel locks have been the standard in pliers for years, decades many many decades. I guess what it means is that we all should have purchased a couple of extra pairs a year ago back when they were still worthy of being called by their brand name. Sad.

 

[Tomzbox]

I tried their 317 needlenose with cutter and was impressed they cut a hair from edge to edge. But the geometry of the final grind was so sloppy I refused to keep them. Checked 10 on the rack at HD and all were sloppy. Bought a pair on ebay and also sloppy. Sent them back and their factory rep was curious what my objection was. Told them any decent tool needs correct geometry. He said "What's the big deal?" Look at any older pairs and you see better work. Look at even cheap junk and you see better workmanship. Not saying they are bad, just sloppy. Durability of newer stuff I dunno. Well I started a little protest I'd like to share if anybody is interested. I documented the last 2 years of buying new old stock online. Only interested in pliers stamped Channellock. Please see the photos of what started my project and the chart of NOS prices you'll find very interesting. Opps, I'm new here and I guess you have to have an image sharing service.

 

[Jim C.]

.......the geometry of the final grind was so sloppy I refused to keep them. Checked 10 on the rack at HD and all were sloppy. Bought a pair on ebay and also sloppy. Sent them back and their factory rep was curious what my objection was. Told them any decent tool needs correct geometry. He said "What's the big deal?" Look at any older pairs and you see better work. Look at even cheap junk and you see better workmanship. Not saying they are bad, just sloppy......

I like Channellocks. I use them frequently, and they’re the most prevalent pliers and cutters in my box, followed by Knipex, old Craftsman, and a one or two by Snap On. My biggest issue with Channellock pliers, cutters, etc. is pretty much what Tom says above. In the last few years, it seems like the symmetry of the tips, jaws, are in fact “sloppy” and don’t match each other like some of my older pairs do. The tips, jaws, etc. are wider, thicker, thinner, on one side versus the other. It looks like their finish grind is performed by hand, so there’s going to be some little differences, but some of them aren’t even close. It’s just sloppy workmanship. I can’t comment on the quality of materials used to make them. From my perspective, my newer Channellocks perform as good as my older ones and vise versa. I still buy Channellocks, but prior to doing so I look at all my choices closely and “pick the best one” if one exists given my options. Sometimes I don’t buy anything because the symmetry is way off. I could go to another store, pick up the same model and it’s fine. There just doesn’t seem to be any consistency. It’s surprising how different the profiles are when comparing several examples of the same tool side by side. I don’t see that as much with Knipex tools for instance.

Jim C.

 

[reader2580]

This might explain why my fairly new ChannelLock side cutters the cutting edge is all chipped to heck. I guess I will be looking elsewhere for a replacement. I cut hardware cloth with them and replace them when they won’t cut anymore. I don’t think I used these on anything but copper as I got a CoBolt cutter for the hardware cloth.

Thy won’t be in business long if nobody will buy their **** anymore.

 

[Interceptor]

I pulled out both of my 460s this morning and found something interesting. Neither one is a recent purchase, but i can tell one is newer because it has the name laser etched instead of stamped. The jaws on the newer one are considerably wider (less grinding done), but the joint, handles, everything else is thinner (as forged). My oversimplified and uneducated conclusion is that they use less metal in the forgings and do less grinding to finish them. Whether is was done intentionally to save money or just by chance only they know.
I also found another gem I had forgotten about. The Channellock oil filter pliers. I ordered it out of a tool flyer and I remember being really dissapointed when it showed up. It clearly is not made in the same factory by the same people that make the other pliers. If it is they should be ashamed. It was cheap, and it does work, but it just looks and feels really crappy.

 

[dnschmidt]

Here's an interesting story for you. At the SEMA show Channellock always has a booth. Each year I stop by that booth to tell them that they should make Vice Grips since Irwin's are such POS. This year I did the same and the response I got from the person I talked to was most informative. His response to me was: "We can't find any people willing to work trying to build what we already make, how would we be able to make another line." That could explain most of what's been written here.

This is a fact. The new Doyle line of pliers at Harbor Freight is without question every bit as good as Channellock's pliers. I've used their diagonal cutters and they are clearly harder tips than the Channellock. I'm sure their linesman's pliers are as good if not better. Am I happy about this: NO. Do I accept reality when it stares me in the face: YES.

 

[xin]

Here's an interesting story for you. At the SEMA show Channellock always has a booth. Each year I stop by that booth to tell them that they should make Vice Grips since Irwin's are such POS. This year I did the same and the response I got from the person I talked to was most informative. His response to me was: "We can't find any people willing to work trying to build what we already make, how would we be able to make another line." That could explain most of what's been written here.

This is a fact. The new Doyle line of pliers at Harbor Freight is without question every bit as good as Channellock's pliers. I've used their diagonal cutters and they are clearly harder tips than the Channellock. I'm sure their linesman's pliers are as good if not better. Am I happy about this: NO. Do I accept reality when it stares me in the face: YES.

So buy the Doyle (fill-in-the-blank) name (so when they quit selling them) you are stuck with them. They must have a lottery spinning ball with 'american sounding names' to pick from in HF...

I am starting to think this is a harbor freight AI bot writing this mess. Just because someone abuses their tools and uses them as pry-bars and hammers.

This is all subjective and most of the time abuse then blaming the tool. I use the correct tool for the job (not go to a tool show and do measurements and chrome plating awards). Eventually ALL man-made items WEAR out nothing last forever.

 

[straightcut]

I recently purchased a simple 6" pair of Channellock pliers, mainly because my older Channellock slip joint gas pliers have all been good. These were pretty unimpressive. Yesterday, I bought a 6" pair of S-K pliers, which I'm hoping are better. And, hopefully, an American (sounding) name, made in the U.S. with quality like we remember!

 

[FJF]

FWIW, Wilde is making pretty good pliers these days.

 

[Interceptor]

FWIW, Wilde is making pretty good pliers these days.

Well now hold on there. If we use xin logic we must surmise that your Wilde pliers only seem good because you never use them (and my Channellock pliers only seem crappy because I abuse them).
Or of course you're a robot working for Wilde.

 

[four.cycle]

"...we must surmise that your Wilde pliers only seem good because you never use them..."

Have you used Wilde?

Or any US-made brands other than Channellock?

How is it possible that Channellock has managed to maintain their market share and retained the business of Walmart and virtually every other big-box mass-merchandiser retailer and yet kept a fairly significant competitive price point advantage over their competitors?

Bear in mind that Walmart, as a matter of policy, demands that their vendors continually reduce their prices in order to maintain their business relationships - they want the same product this year for less than they paid for it last year.

Do the math. It's not rocket science.

 

[McFarmer]

FWIW, Wilde is making pretty good pliers these days.

I find them very good.

 

[Interceptor]

Just in case you couldn't tell, my last post was entirely in jest.
I own one Craftsman branded groove joint pliers made by Wilde and have no complaints. I also own some Craftsman by Western Forge, those pliers seem ok but the dykes have always been junk compared to my favorite old Channellock 337. I have some Snap-on pliers, and various specialty pliers from KD, SK, Matco, Schley, and others. I've used these tools to earn a living for over 20 years, I know a good tool from a bad one.

 

[jl4c]

No, it wasn't a leap to think he didn't over abuse them. How do you break a pair of pliers in half by not abusing them? Sorry, but that is abuse, and he already admitted that most of his failures are abuse when matching to the pictures on CL's website.

Bob, you're focusing on the wrong thing. Or rather you are answering a question that hasn't been asked. OP isn't saying he didn't abuse them. OP is saying that current models won't stand up to the "abuse" that previous models would have shrugged off.

 

[Ji m]

Here's an interesting story for you. At the SEMA show Channellock always has a booth. Each year I stop by that booth to tell them that they should make Vice Grips since Irwin's are such POS. This year I did the same and the response I got from the person I talked to was most informative. His response to me was: "We can't find any people willing to work trying to build what we already make, how would we be able to make another line." That could explain most of what's been written here.

This is a fact. The new Doyle line of pliers at Harbor Freight is without question every bit as good as Channellock's pliers. I've used their diagonal cutters and they are clearly harder tips than the Channellock. I'm sure their linesman's pliers are as good if not better. Am I happy about this: NO. Do I accept reality when it stares me in the face: YES.

I'm glad the Doyles were worth the money,

but it's a common ploy to do the first few runs of something to a higher standard,
then taper off once it gains popularity.

Not saying they'll do that,
but it seems for HF to raise prices on tools they'll also have to raise peoples opinions of their quality.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

I tried their 317 needlenose with cutter and was impressed they cut a hair from edge to edge. But the geometry of the final grind was so sloppy I refused to keep them. Checked 10 on the rack at HD and all were sloppy. Bought a pair on ebay and also sloppy. Sent them back and their factory rep was curious what my objection was. Told them any decent tool needs correct geometry. He said "What's the big deal?" Look at any older pairs and you see better work. Look at even cheap junk and you see better workmanship. Not saying they are bad, just sloppy. Durability of newer stuff I dunno. Well I started a little protest I'd like to share if anybody is interested. I documented the last 2 years of buying new old stock online. Only interested in pliers stamped Channellock. Please see the photos of what started my project and the chart of NOS prices you'll find very interesting. Opps, I'm new here and I guess you have to have an image sharing service.

Interesting that the Factory Rep would say: "What's the big deal?"

That reply has a golden way of summing up in four words My perception of their perception of the customer group and price point they are shooting for. To sell that $17 needle nose pliers at WalMart; they apparently have to take a few shortcuts. Still a USA product... Glad to see that... They are not the best; or the quality of earlier production. They are now upper budget line tools?

I will continue to use My Channel-Lock pliers, but My ProTo, SnapOn, and Klein pliers have proven to be better choices when seeking quality.






+

 

[Ji m]

Just in case you couldn't tell, my last post was entirely in jest.
I own one Craftsman branded groove joint pliers made by Wilde and have no complaints. I also own some Craftsman by Western Forge, those pliers seem ok but the dykes have always been junk compared to my favorite old Channellock 337. I have some Snap-on pliers, and various specialty pliers from KD, SK, Matco, Schley, and others. I've used these tools to earn a living for over 20 years, I know a good tool from a bad one.

^my orange handle Matco channel locks are without a doubt actual Channellock made pliers,
though I don't know if they still do that.

 

[Ji m]

Interesting that the Factory Rep would say: "What's the big deal?"

That reply has a golden way of summing up in four words My perception of their perception of the customer group and price point they are shooting for. To sell that $17 needle nose pliers at WalMart; they apparently have to take a few shortcuts. Still a USA product... Glad to see that... They are not the best; or the quality of earlier production. They are now upper budget line tools?

I will continue to use My Channel-Lock pliers, but My ProTo, SnapOn, and Klein pliers have proven to be better choices when seeking quality.






+

totally understandable,
but have you tried the Klein channel locks?

 

[DonglordActual]

ProAmerica makes channellock-style pliers as well. Might be worth a look as they are comparable in price.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

totally understandable,
but have you tried the Klein channel locks?

No I have not.. The cutting edges of My Klein, SnapOn, and ProTo pliers have impressed Me. My most trusted water pump pliers are the old Green handled Diamond, old Channell-Locks, and a well proven SnapOn ... SnapOn wins in the needle nose department. Old ProTo is the most hated of the water pump and any slip joint pliers. I don't care for the newer Channell-Lock water pump pliers because the steel seems softer, and the lack of a bolt and nut to adjust the play.. I like to pick and choose among brands, and appreciate information about quality issues on tool choices.. Thankfully, I am in no hurry to rush out and buy any water pump pliers, and have plenty of time to listen to what You and others would have to say about that Klein product.

 

[Jim c]

“Am I happy about this, no. Do i accept reality because it is staring me in the face, yes”


Dnschmidt I am totally in agreement with you. What you said is basically my motto when I shop tool stores these days. I have been wondering about hf Doyle pliers. Good information to have. Thank you.

 

[xin]

Just in case you couldn't tell, my last post was entirely in jest.
I own one Craftsman branded groove joint pliers made by Wilde and have no complaints. I also own some Craftsman by Western Forge, those pliers seem ok but the dykes have always been junk compared to my favorite old Channellock 337. I have some Snap-on pliers, and various specialty pliers from KD, SK, Matco, Schley, and others. I've used these tools to earn a living for over 20 years, I know a good tool from a bad one.

Reminds me of one fella who said I got 20 years doing this, 15 doing this, 30 doing this on and on.... Going by what the guy 'said' he would be like 150 years old.

Just sayin...

 

[Keelhauled]

I bent the tips of a pair of Channellock needle noses on a cotter pin within a week of buying them. It's gotta be bad news when the fasteners are tougher than the tool. I was not entirely unhappy when I lost that pair, because it meant I could buy the True Value store brand pliers at half the price.

 

[four.cycle]

ProAmerica makes channellock-style pliers as well. Might be worth a look as they are comparable in price.

I don't own any Channellock product so I can't make a visual comparison here.

Both the Wilde G271.Z and Proamerica 8010 10-inch tongue and groove pliers are recent acquisitions - obviously neither has seen any use.
I own a number of different models in both Wilde and Proamerica, and I find the workmanship, fit, and finish on them all to be first rate.
I'm still beating the hell out of my 40+ year old Indestros, so I cannot speak to the long-term durability or performance of any of the Wilde or Proamerica models.

Channellock continues to maintain a price-point advantage over both Wilde and Proamerica (for reasons I won't speculate about here.)

Both of the pairs above were purchased as low-ball close-outs.

The Wilde 10-inch models with the zinc finish have been discontinued by Wilde, and can be purchased at Harry Epstein for $10.00 + shipping (with any number of different colored handles.)

The Wilde 10-inch G271.Z above was purchased on an Ebay close-out for $13.99 including shipping.
( see HERE: https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6980331#post6980331 )

The Proamerica 8010 model is available from an Ebay seller on a close-out
( see HERE: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pro-Americ...-Groove-Joint-Pliers-Made-in-USA/112685845767 )
He yo-yos up and down on his prices - can't seem to make up his mind. Right now they're listed at $12.80 incl. shipping OBO. I paid him $11.00 including shipping for the pair above, and it looks like I'm the only one who bought any from him so far. He's using a stock photo showing the newer blue handles. The military surplus models he's selling mostly have the older red handles like the pair above.

I found the anecdotal comment up-thread about "thinner handles" rather interesting, because in my exchanges with a high-volume Ebay seller the same comment was made regarding the Channellock models. Not owning any myself I cannot attest to that.

YMMV

 

[Brownsfan]

“Am I happy about this, no. Do i accept reality because it is staring me in the face, yes”


Dnschmidt I am totally in agreement with you. What you said is basically my motto when I shop tool stores these days. I have been wondering about hf Doyle pliers. Good information to have. Thank you.

I have a couple of the new “Doyle “ pliers and I’m most impressed with the cutters. Also the needle nose are fantastic as well. For the money with a coupon. These are a good value. I think I paid $12 for each.

 

[reader2580]

Here's an interesting story for you. At the SEMA show Channellock always has a booth. Each year I stop by that booth to tell them that they should make Vice Grips since Irwin's are such POS. This year I did the same and the response I got from the person I talked to was most informative. His response to me was: "We can't find any people willing to work trying to build what we already make, how would we be able to make another line." That could explain most of what's been written here.

How does lack of employees relate to the quality issues discussed here? The employees on the production floor don’t make decisions about what steel alloys are used and such.

I just paid twice as much for a Ridgid tube cutter simply be it is Made in USA. I hope I didn’t make a mistake.

 

[Jim c]

Browns fan thank you for the information on the hf doYLe pliers . I saw them a few weeks back when I stopped in hf and thought that the looked pretty good. But in tools just l8ke in women, looks really are meaningless; as young guys, we blew all of our paycheck trying to get the hot woman only to discover after a couple breakups or divorces and child support issues , that it is the quality of the woman not the looks. With tools it is the quality of the steel. Again, not the looks. ( think hf pro line of impact sockets vs. other fancy expensive lines) if it don’t break when I beat on it to loosen a tough nut, then that is quality .

 

[Interceptor]

Reminds me of one fella who said I got 20 years doing this, 15 doing this, 30 doing this on and on.... Going by what the guy 'said' he would be like 150 years old.

Just sayin...

If I delivered newspapers for 20 years and flipped burgers for 20 years it doesn't necessarily mean I've worked for 40 years. I hope you can understand how that's possible.

Anyway I only said I worked 20 years so.... just what are you sayin?.... How did you connect what I said to your fascinating but irrelevant story? Or were you just trying to denigrate me by association?

Just to keep it on topic, I received my first Knipex tool last week and I am very impressed. I don't mind paying a little more for a better tool. Thanks everyone for all the alternative suggestions. My tool budget is blown for a while, but I'll keep everyone's suggestions in mind next time I'm shopping.

 

[Interceptor]

Hey four.cycle, I just looked closer at your pics. I would bet money those Proamerica groove joints are made by Channellock. They look dead-on identical in every way except the color of the handles. I'll have to get my CL 430 out tomorrow and take a closer look. All of my Channellocks of that type have been really really good, but they are all older. The Proamerica 5008 looks an awful lot like a Channellock 337.

 

[four.cycle]

I would bet money those Proamerica groove joints are made by Channellock.

I think you would most likely lose that wager.

Proamerica is primarily a contract supplier; the majority of their product is made for other companies (among them Tekton, Jensen Tool, Techni-Tool, and Proto.)
Information about the company has been difficult to pin down. The address they show on their website in Baldwin Park, California, is in an industrial warehouse area. Supposedly they have a forging facility somewhere in Pennsylvania (which has not been confirmed.)

I don't own a copy of the 5008 diagonal cutters. I already own three pairs of old Indestro 2131 7-inch diagonal cutters and they're still working just fine 40+ years later. I try to avoid cutting 16-penny nails with them, and usually choose the 2124 Indestro 7-1/2" lineman pliers for that task.
I recently picked up two pairs of old NOS Thorsen 7-inch diagonal cutters for $11.00 shipped (for the pair) but they haven't been used yet.

Perhaps it's just personal preference on my part, but I'm more impressed with the Wilde (over the Proamerica) when it comes to the larger pliers. Most of the Proamerica models I have are their miniature pliers- models that Wilde doesn't offer in their product line.

On the diagonals:
The only reason I bought the Thorsens was because they were dirt cheap.
If I had to buy a pair of diagonal cutters today and my choices were limited to those brands currently available, I'd most likely defer to the opinions of those who use them for a living (like GJ member kctyphoon) and invest in a set of Kleins.

(see HERE: https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367803 )
(see HERE: https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376456 )

Moreover, I don't particularly care for those baby-blue handles.

YMMV

 

[Interceptor]

Supposedly they have a forging facility somewhere in Pennsylvania (which has not been confirmed.)

Channellock are in Meadville, PA. Still think I'm wrong? The little info I found on Proamerica from just a quick look, mostly on their own site, seemed to indicate that they are a tool supplier, not a manufacturer. Much like Sears/Craftsman the way I understood it. Of course I could be wrong, it was just a guess, I know very little about either company.

Just found this on Google...
Pro America Premium Tools 221 E 2nd St Emporium, PA 15834
Emprium Forging - same address.

Looks like I lost that bet. It is interesting that they're just two hours away from where Channellock resides, in the middle of nowhere PA.

 

[four.cycle]

Contact somebody who works at the plant and find out. I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to know.

edit:

The Google Earth images definitely look like that building could be used for making widgets.

Like I said above, information about the company has been pretty hard to find.

It's always possible that Channellock and Proamerica could be making widgets for each other - it certainly wouldn't be the first time tool manufacturers outsourced product from each other.
Just my lousy opinion, but I don't believe that any of my (late-production) Indestro pliers were made by Indesto. I think they outsourced all of them, but I have no way of being able to confirm that.