kythri
Well-known member
Yeah, I absolutely do not believe that a Channellock factory representative responded in such a manner.
Channellock quality slipping?
- Thread starter Interceptor
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Yeah, I absolutely do not believe that a Channellock factory representative responded in such a manner.
WittHay
Well-known member
No I have not.. The cutting edges of My Klein, SnapOn, and ProTo pliers have impressed Me. My most trusted water pump pliers are the old Green handled Diamond, old Channell-Locks, and a well proven SnapOn ... SnapOn wins in the needle nose department. Old ProTo is the most hated of the water pump and any slip joint pliers. I don't care for the newer Channell-Lock water pump pliers because the steel seems softer, and the lack of a bolt and nut to adjust the play.. I like to pick and choose among brands, and appreciate information about quality issues on tool choices.. Thankfully, I am in no hurry to rush out and buy any water pump pliers, and have plenty of time to listen to what You and others would have to say about that Klein product.
Those old Proto pliers had to be the worst fricken USA made pliers ever. Toughens you up, using them along with the 1/2" raised panel Craftsman ratchet on old equipment when I was younger.
Strange thing about Channellock, I never noticed them 20 or 30 years ago. What was popular was Diamond, Snap-on and Craftsman. In the last whatever years they are sold in all the box stores around here.
I like Channellock for clean at home garage work. I use Snap-on and Wilde for the HD shop use
BDT/NWMN
Well-known member
I was lucky enough to have lost one of the old ProTo slip joint pliers. There should still be four of them in the bottom of a scrap bin.. I was thinking about cutting off the handles and grinding them into small pinch bars.. The name would be SO proper..
lbhsbz
Well-known member
I feel compelled to point out that I purchased 4 Pittsburg Pro (red and black..really nice handled) long nose pliers about 5 years ago from HF, have abused the hell out of 'em, used the torch to reshape them (one of them has been re-bent a few different times) and they've performed flawlessly. I don't think I'll consider a different brand of these for a while.
Glad people noticed my remarks. But let me say I am a real American and have no interest in hurting anybody still making sparks in this country. I did not say they said "Whats the big deal" lightly. The needlenose were bought from one of the biggest sellers of Channellock on ebay. I contacted the seller and told them exactly why I was returning them. Probably included pictures. It was 2 years ago so I can't remember everything. I was impressed when the seller said it had got the attention of the rep. So I gave them a real ear full. I was going through the seller keep in mind. To my best interpretation it seemed very much like the rep said "What's the big deal"? So much so I committed it to memory that way and I'll stick by it. Six months ago I sent an email to them asking if they resharpened diagonal cutters. They never even wrote back.
I was so happy they introduced a "professional" no-nonesnse screwdriver set I got it to try. Also got the 6 in 1 multi-bit. Well I don't have a Rockwell tester but after working steel 30 years I know hardness by sound. The tips are not professional at all. Best buy in American screwdriver sets must be the Williams. Oh yeah, not impressed with the multi either. Price wise though can't complain. But I figured out how to post pics. Please see my chart of new old stock Channellock bought online and the pliers that made me mad enough to do it. I hope Channellock continues. It was started by a blacksmith doing farrier tools. I also hammer so I respect that greatly. If they want and pay enough I'll grind their stuff and teach the knuckleheads how. It's about respect. Can't get the chart into such a small file so see a typical example.
I was so happy they introduced a "professional" no-nonesnse screwdriver set I got it to try. Also got the 6 in 1 multi-bit. Well I don't have a Rockwell tester but after working steel 30 years I know hardness by sound. The tips are not professional at all. Best buy in American screwdriver sets must be the Williams. Oh yeah, not impressed with the multi either. Price wise though can't complain. But I figured out how to post pics. Please see my chart of new old stock Channellock bought online and the pliers that made me mad enough to do it. I hope Channellock continues. It was started by a blacksmith doing farrier tools. I also hammer so I respect that greatly. If they want and pay enough I'll grind their stuff and teach the knuckleheads how. It's about respect. Can't get the chart into such a small file so see a typical example.
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Interceptor
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You can watch the Channellock Meadville factory tour on Youtube. When you see the short amount of time spent grinding each tool (it's done by hand) it's easy to see why there's no precision or consistency from one tool to the next. Understandably they can't spend too much time on one tool without raising the cost per unit. My needle nose look very much like Tomz pictures, but even worse in that the tip on one side is about half as thick as the other. No surprise that's the one that broke off.
There's another Channellock video from the US Chamber of Commerce in which the owner mentions changes in metallurgy and hardening, presumably he meant improvements in such, but this does confirm that there have been changes. It seems like a great American company and I really want to support them, especially being in my home state.
The comment from the Channellock rep about not being able to find people to work may have stemmed from tension between the non-union management and union laborers. Perhaps they were in the middle of contract negotiations at the time. Or maybe there really just aren't enough people in that area who want to work in a hot noisy factory.
There's another Channellock video from the US Chamber of Commerce in which the owner mentions changes in metallurgy and hardening, presumably he meant improvements in such, but this does confirm that there have been changes. It seems like a great American company and I really want to support them, especially being in my home state.
The comment from the Channellock rep about not being able to find people to work may have stemmed from tension between the non-union management and union laborers. Perhaps they were in the middle of contract negotiations at the time. Or maybe there really just aren't enough people in that area who want to work in a hot noisy factory.
dnschmidt
Well-known member
Perhaps it's both. Meadville, PA isn't exactly a garden spot. Nobody is moving from somewhere else to Meadville and I'm sure a lot of people have left there to go to bigger cities. The fact that somebody wouldn't want to work in a noisy factory certainly could be an issue (for example I never would) and with a shrinking population surrounding it there truly could well be a lack of available labor.
davethorik
Well-known member
How sure are you that Wilde makes Snap-on, since you don't own any Wilde?
I've been in manufacturing my whole life. It's in my blood. I know exactly what that rep meant about not being able to find decent labor. I've been in the same position. When you consider their production rate I can't imagine how they find enough people these days. Let's be honest we are getting soft. Kids today aren't like we were. We did anything we could to make money when we were kids. Today ... well you know. I'm sorry but I suppose the only solutions for them would be one I refuse to say here or automation. But only after they review their fundamental techniques at grinding by hand. Or heck bring back the old guys. It's absolutely great they are still ground by hand but how that works with wallymart I can't imagine. If they must remain in that cheap market I'm afraid robot is the only way. At least for complex shapes like needle nose anyway. Intercepter I really enjoy watching "How It's Made" when they show Channellock, SnapOn, etc.
I didn't say I was sure did I? I won't bore you with my credentials. From a little checking I found that Wilde mainly produces for other companies. Not saying all SnapOns are by Wilde. If the trained eye looks closely at pics you"ll see the similarities. I did this years ago so specifics I don't remember. Just take it under consideration and look for yourself. Next time I see proof I'll save it. Any reason to not believe?
OP
Interceptor
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I think he was referring to bending as a modification and not a repair, as in making a bent nose out of a straight one.
I see what you mean, post deleted.
zakmartin
Well-known member
My god, what an absolute load of horsecrap. Baby Boomers were a lazy bunch of pot-smoking, hippie, "blame the man" crybabies that created the economic position we're living in today. The kids I know who work for me have an incredible work ethic and understand how to put in a solid days' work far more than the Baby Boomers who tend to blame everything on everyone but themselves.davethorik
Well-known member
I was under the assumption Snap-on made most of their own pliers. Some are rebranded (like snap ring pliers), but their "basic" pliers...side cutters, needle nose, linemans, 3 position slip joint, etc are made by them in house. If you have evidence to support the contrary, I'll be glad to hear it.
OP
Interceptor
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I wouldn't be surprised if Wilde makes at least lock ring pliers for Snap-On. Comparing pictures of the Snap-On SRP5C and the Wilde G705.B, it certainly looks like the same plier. I was under the impression Snap-On made most of their pliers themselves. The long nose, slip joint, and diagonals I have from them are not like any other pliers I have (Wilde included) and I assumed that meant Snap-On makes them.
Around here Channellock always had to compete with Diamond Calk. Diamond was cheaper, but still a step above Great Neck and Vlchek. Now with all those brands gone or foreign, Channellock seems to be much more common. I don't think of them for side cutters, never have.
I have newer Channellock I am happy with, mostly the bigger sizes. Down smaller Wilde made Tekton is very nice, Wilde was unknown to me before the GJ as they private label, but I now search them out.
I have newer Channellock I am happy with, mostly the bigger sizes. Down smaller Wilde made Tekton is very nice, Wilde was unknown to me before the GJ as they private label, but I now search them out.
Aren’t the HD forged set of s-o snap ring pliers made in house?
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Interceptor
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The forged S-O SRP1, SRP2, etc. look strikingly similar to the Wilde pliers of the same type, right down to the unique spring shape and attachment method. But SK, Proto, and Armstrong have pliers that also look nearly identical. Is Wilde making these for everyone or is everyone just copying the same design?
I have an older stamped snap ring plier that is marked Snap-On on one side and Waldes Truarc on the other, so they have a proven history of outsourcing. Interestingly if you look at the current offering of pliers from Waldes Truarc which is now Rotorclip, some are clearly rebadged Knipex pliers, and others are obviously Wilde.
Thanks Interceptor you saved me from a lotta heat. I was just hoping somebody here had hard evidence. The first tipoff is the slide on grips. SnapOn grips have added texture to make them more "special" but other than that exactly the same. I wouldn't be surprised if they(Wilde) had exclusively SnapOn dies either. Can't expect a company to be masters of everything ... not efficient. I've seen people raving about SO pliers on youtube, guess Wilde is quality. The thing that makes plier manufacturing tricky is the joints(and cutting edges). Letting outhouse handle that is reasonable.
four.cycle
Well-known member
Interceptor said:
I think the majority of the membership here would be surprised at how many of their favorite brands of tools were actually manufactured by somebody else.
The outsourcing of tools by one manufacturer from another is nothing new in the industry - it's been going on all along.
But don't expect Snap-on to tell you who they're buying what from, and don't expect Wilde to tell you who they're selling what to - that information is usually kept confidential with contractual agreements between parties.
What can be said for certain is that Wilde is a primary manufacturer and supplies a number of different companies with product, and that Snap-on outsources all kinds of product from other manufacturers.
A year or so back, while talking to one of the big muckity-mucks at a tool manufacturer located several states east of me, I was told (quote verbatim) "Snap-on is our biggest customer."
The only way that you're ever going to know for certain is to know somebody who works in one of the manufacturing facilities. Other than that all you can do is make your best guess based on visual comparisons.
I personally have nearly every model pliers channellock makes. I have some that are 30ish years old and some that are a year old and everywhere in between. Yes, the finish varies, but I have not noticed any dramatic difference in performance or durability. That being said, I also use them for their intended purpose and not as hammers, pry bars, chisels, punches, pin spanners, or any other unintended red neck engineered use.
How one snaps a pair of pliers in half I cannot even imagine, I'm pretty sure a gorilla couldn't do it if the pliers were being used properly.
Just because you use your grandfather's channellocks as a hammer, pry bar, chisel, etc and they held up is not an indication that the new tools are lower quality. If you're using the tool for its intended purpose and it breaks that's an indication of lower quality.
Just use the right tool for the job, it's intended job.
Willy-Joe-Bob's book of 10,000 uses for a butter knife.
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How one snaps a pair of pliers in half I cannot even imagine, I'm pretty sure a gorilla couldn't do it if the pliers were being used properly.
Just because you use your grandfather's channellocks as a hammer, pry bar, chisel, etc and they held up is not an indication that the new tools are lower quality. If you're using the tool for its intended purpose and it breaks that's an indication of lower quality.
Just use the right tool for the job, it's intended job.
Willy-Joe-Bob's book of 10,000 uses for a butter knife.
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jl4c
Well-known member
Yes it is.
stu·pid·i·ty
st
o͞oˈpidədē/noun
behavior that shows a lack of good sense or judgment.
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In some ways yes. The fit and finish is not quite like what it used to be. I attribute this to some cost cutting, value engineering, or the lean manufacturing models. I inherited almost all of my late grandfather's tools. A ton of these were Channellock. My modern day collection isn't the same in ways. However these days it's tough to find any producer of tools that hasn't done this. I don't have any old vs new European tools to know but maybe Knipex has been the same since they started? I think I'm honestly more disheartened by the slipping quality of Klein lately.
However in Channellocks defense I'll concede to the fact in order to keep US workers in their jobs and keep a certain quality uniform across the brand in todays economic environment some things have to change. This is why I won't write them off yet. I will however if the following happens like what Sears did with Craftsmen stuff: Move tool production overseas on nearly every hand tool while raising the prices, decrease the overall quality, and instead bank on gimicky tools.
There are other manufactures of pliers that are just as good if not better depending on your price range. While they don't have the R&D and variety of designs (pliers in this case) tools made by Wright should be at the top of the list. Absolutely fantastic for the money and they are US made tools with US steel.
In summary I'm just happy that a company like Channellock even exists these days. I'm willing to give certain concessions for that too.
However in Channellocks defense I'll concede to the fact in order to keep US workers in their jobs and keep a certain quality uniform across the brand in todays economic environment some things have to change. This is why I won't write them off yet. I will however if the following happens like what Sears did with Craftsmen stuff: Move tool production overseas on nearly every hand tool while raising the prices, decrease the overall quality, and instead bank on gimicky tools.
There are other manufactures of pliers that are just as good if not better depending on your price range. While they don't have the R&D and variety of designs (pliers in this case) tools made by Wright should be at the top of the list. Absolutely fantastic for the money and they are US made tools with US steel.
In summary I'm just happy that a company like Channellock even exists these days. I'm willing to give certain concessions for that too.
jl4c
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You mean like calling people names because they disagree with you?
jl4c
Well-known member
Note that I'm not advocating that someone misuse a tool. But if the new tool breaks under circumstances that the older model would have shrugged off, it's a lower quality tool. It's not inadequate for its intended purpose, but it's lower quality.
Consider a car that used to have a zero to sixty time of 4.2 seconds and now posts 4.6 seconds. The 4.6s car is slower, no two ways about it. But if you drive it like the car is "intended" it's entirely adequate.
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I'm reluctant to respond to this any further but here goes.
If your grandfather's x-brand screwdriver never bent while prying a wheel bearing out but your new x-brand screwdriver did, does that mean it's a sub-standard screwdriver? In my mind that means it's a substandard pry bar. It may function perfectly well for its intended use of driving screws and never break.
The test of the quality of tool can only be judged by its durability for its intended use.
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If your grandfather's x-brand screwdriver never bent while prying a wheel bearing out but your new x-brand screwdriver did, does that mean it's a sub-standard screwdriver? In my mind that means it's a substandard pry bar. It may function perfectly well for its intended use of driving screws and never break.
The test of the quality of tool can only be judged by its durability for its intended use.
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jl4c
Well-known member
Too bad you don't exhibit the same reluctance when it comes to calling people names when you disagree with them.
Two screwdrivers from the same manufacturer can be outwardly identical, yet made of different grades of steel, one slightly inferior in strength to the other. Both can be entirely adequate for their intended purpose. But that doesn't change the fact that one screwdriver does not have the same strength it once had. That is the kind of slippage in quality we have been discussing--not whether a tool is adequate for its intended purpose.
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I did not call anyone a name for disagreeing with me. I did not actually call anyone a name, just a simple definition of a word that came to mind while thinking about the conversation going on here about tools failing while using them for unintended purposes. Which I might also mention is not only a poor practice, but could also be dangerous.
I'm sure channellock and every other manufacturer tests their pliers as pry bars and hammers and chisels because that would only make sense.
Channellock Engineer: Hey George did you get around to testing the new needle nose pliers as a pry bar yet? How about the slip joints as a ball peen hammer? And how did the diagonal cutters work out as a chisel?
Tech: Yessir I did all those tests, but they didn't fare to well. Guess we just don't make em like we used to. My grandfather used to use his needle nose as a pry bar all the time.
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I'm sure channellock and every other manufacturer tests their pliers as pry bars and hammers and chisels because that would only make sense.
Channellock Engineer: Hey George did you get around to testing the new needle nose pliers as a pry bar yet? How about the slip joints as a ball peen hammer? And how did the diagonal cutters work out as a chisel?
Tech: Yessir I did all those tests, but they didn't fare to well. Guess we just don't make em like we used to. My grandfather used to use his needle nose as a pry bar all the time.
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Yep Wright is overlooked. They have the industrial quality target they want everybody else that still want's a quality American tool can(and should) seek them out. Shouldn't expect them to come to you and still have reasonable prices. Really burns me to see all the hype for Harbor Freight especially on youtube. I've been in the position where I needed a cheap machine quick and that's where I went. Wasn't happy about it though. Whether we like it or not they are the enemy.
Now I have internet ... obviously. And so do you all. Why in the world pass up all the great old American quality that's right at your fingertips? Got an Armstrong 1/2" breaker bar in last week barely any use if any. Yep it was marked too: NORFOLK NAVAL SHIP YARD. Get it? And it fits SnapOn great.
So glad you cared. Tell ya what kid: I'll give ya 20 years to ponder on what's actually wrong and how we got here. If you have any good ideas on how to change course that'll be extra credit. If you've done anything to help I'll hand you the baton.
I just wanted to say that I left my Channellock adjustable wrench out in the rain for 2 days next to my knipex Cobra pliers. The Channellocks are shiny without a spec of rust. The knipex have a little rust so I will clean them of with a wire wheel. Love both products but impressed that the Channellock finish was not penetrated.
Rabid Badger
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The problem with Channellock is the same as most other USA tool manufacturers. They saw import tools manufactured and sold cheaply because of modern equipment and manufacturing processes. They then decided to try to compete on price not by updating their factories, but by using 50 year old equipment and hand finishing, while paying their people less and less.
sweet victory
Well-known member
I realize I'm posting to a resurrected thread. Recently bought some new CL 748's off of the SO truck. I have plans to modify these for pulling on springs, but my initial impressions of them were not great. The edges along the outside edge of the pliers are stupid sharp. These pliers are already being manually sanded; they seriously cant figure out how to deburr or break sharp edges?
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