Check this Product out? Thoughts Comments Needed Please...

[sixty4]

http://www.citadelfloors.com/ This stuff looks pretty nice.. Not sure if anyone has used it or if it is a good product or not? It is a polyeura system (what the hell is that)? Please chime in and let me know what you all think? About 2300.00 to due my 1000sq ft garage.

Thanks in advance Sixty4...

 

[Kevin54]

If I am not mistaken the polyeura system is basically the same as some bedliners in trucks. I do know that where I got my bed sprayed at that they also advertised doing garage floors. After aq quick search, check this http://www.steadfastlinings.com/ . It is the same type.

Kevin

 

[sixty4]

Thanks Kevin.. I am going to try this product out. It also is sold @ www.rocksolidfloors.com

 

[wrenchbender]

Hi Sixty4
Why not use PVC floor tiles, no mess and you could do it for the same money if not less!

Regards
Roger

 

[Fuller]

Hi Sixty4
Why not use PVC floor tiles, no mess and you could do it for the same money if not less!

Regards
Roger

Personally, I really don't like the look, feel, and sound of any of the plastic tile systems. As for the polyurea, I would like to try it but I've had such good results with 100% solids epoxy that I'm afraid to change. I think the polyurea is a bit more demanding in the application - shorter pot life etc.

 

[www.rocksolidfloors.com]

Polyurea is a technology that has been used for over 30 years in mainly industrial applications due to its complex chemical makeup and application techniques. Although similar to the strength of the most commonly known Polyurea's for pickup truck bed liners, the products used for both the Citadel Floors (www.citadelfloors.com) and Rock Solid Floors (www.rocksolidfloors.com) http://rocksolidfloors.com are formulated to be able to easily be rolled applied and have excellent UV stability. The main benefits over the traditional epoxy and urethane coatings is in the speed of application, return to service time, unlimited temperature application, UV stability, abrasion resistance,
tensile strength and elongation. The Citadel product has been applied to over 2500 garage floors by our certified applicators. Our coating process is a true industrial grade 3 liquid coat system with a full chip broadcast. ALL OF THESE COATS CAN BE COMPLETED IN ONE DAY and you will be able to walk on the floor in just a few hours and drive on it the next DAY. This is WHAT makes our Polyurea system truly unique. I developed Rock Solid Floors in response to the demand to have a professional grade DIY kit that can be installed in just one day with a fast return to service time. You can clear out your garage on Saturday morning, clean and prep the concrete, complete all three steps in 6-8 hours and move back in on Sunday. This is unheard of in the world of professionally installed epoxy systems and just impossible with ANY other DIY kit. The average cost for a true full broadcast chip is $2.85 sqft. this comes with the DVD, Full Chip ( over lb/sqft "our 350 sqft kits comes with over lbs of chips not Oz like the other DIY kits and the others sell the chip for an additional $12.00/lb ), primer, base coat and a UV stable Polyurea Top Coat. There are no shortcuts, we only offer our system with the three coats because that is the way a floor should be done!!

 

[bluesman2a]

The main benifts over the traditional epoxy and urethane coatings is in the speed of application, return to service time, unlimited temperature application, UV stabilty, abrasion resistence, tensile strength and elongation.

OK, I gotta ask the question that always comes up for me with flooring products:

How does it stand up to welding slag, grinding, and other metal fabrication? When you say unlimited temperature application is that unlimited temperatures in USE (like welding slag), or is that no-limits on temp when you are INSTALLING the product onto the floor?

 

[www.rocksolidfloors.com]

Our professional grade Citadel Floor (www.citadelfloors.com) can be applied at any temperature as far as exposure to welding slag this is tough to answer because I am unsure of temperature that the slag will have due to the different types of metals and voltage which is needed for that specific welding project. But, with this said our product has been temperature rated and tested to withstand 250 deg c.

 

[www.rocksolidfloors.com]

In response to Fuller post about the installation. The Rock Solid Floor is very easy to install. Please see the video link at extremhowto.com
http://extremehowto.com/xh/hotproducts.asp?productid=1606

 

[bluesman2a]

Our profesional grade Citadel Floor (www.citadelfloors.com) can be applied at any temperature as far as exposure to welding slag this is tough to answer because I am unsure of temperature that the slag will have due to the different types of metals and voltage which is needed for that specific welding project.

I think if we make some generalizations you can get a ballpark to work with:

1) it's hot enough to sizzle spit.
2) the metal (typically 1020 DOM tubing) is molten when it drops from the work piece.
3) it glows typically in the low red range.
4) if you touch skin it's what is typically called "branding".
5) The stuff that falls on the floor is typically considered "small" (typically the size of a match head or smaller, but lots of them) it'll cool pretty fast. This perception only changes if it drops into your ear, THEN it feels MUCH more significant and takes FORRRREVVVVVAAARR to cool.

 

[locoman]

This part scares me "I developed Rock Solid Floors "

 

[www.rocksolidfloors.com]

Everything must be created, what I did was to create the most REVOLUTIONARY DIY floor coating system on the market. What you are unaware of is the 20 year plus history that my company has in the formulation of specialty coatings for industrial applications. Our coatings systems are proven and are backed by the strongest lifetime warranty in the business. So yes I did develop the company Rock Solid Floors to give the DIY customer access to a coating system that usually is installed for twice the price of what our kits sell for utilizing the technology that has been available to only professional coating applicators. I hope this gives you a clear picture of my previous post.

http://rocksolidfloors.com

 

[quentinjs]

There are some very well known products such as Herculon, what makes your product better/worse then it? For epoxies, there is only 4 manufactures of the epoxy polymer, and everyone take the epoxy and adds their own additives, is this the same for your coating?

 

[www.rocksolidfloors.com]

The main difference between our coating and the one you mentioned is the 2-3 day installation time and 5 day return to service time compared to the 1 day install and next day return to service. Our coatings are formulated to be ultra low VOC and safe to use in the most restrictive states including southern Ca. Please see http://citadelfloors.com and http://rocksolidfloors.com for more information.

07' Jeep Wrangler Unlimited - Rubicon
07' GMC Yukon XL Denali
05' Malibu Wakesetter VLX

 

[sixty4]

If this is Bruce from Citadel. This is Mark the guy who is going to try your product for a Customers Garage (the 1000sq ft). I am looking to get into installing your product! If not you Bruce, Hello and Welcome to a great site!!
Sixty4... Mark.

 

[jskco]

We are reviewing the product now. From what I can tell it is a very good product with some extremely unique characteristics. We plan on marketing it on our site shortly. It does require adequate floor preparation so make sure you read the manufacturers directions. Additionally, you will find that dealers can purchase it through Custom Plastics.

Justin Krauss

 

[thegarageguy]

Poly eurea systems have been used in garages starting about 4 years ago, that I know about. Premier garage uses it exclusively now. I used the system almost 4 years ago and found it difficult to use. I know use it only as my top coat for my chip and quartz systems. It basically saves me a day or 2 of labor.
An all poly eurea system works but not in all situations. For example, if the surface is detiriorated, has many imperfections or pourus. It can go down but quality will suffer. The end result will not look so good.
I have found that chipping into polyeurea usually leads to an inconsistant broadcasts where you will leave patchy spots. To an unsuspecting client it may not make a big difference but for me its unacceptable. And since its only to coats it goes on paper thin and has hard times hiding slab imperfections.I'm guessing the DYI kit would be maybe 80% solid or less just to make it workable for the DYI guy, so the end product will be even thinner.
I would only recommend this system to new slabs that have a high quality poured finish.

just my .02 for what its worth.

 

[www.rocksolidfloors.com]

I would like at add to the comments in the above post. Premier Garage does not use polyurea to my knowlege their product is called a hybrid polymer-"not sure what that means" but it is not a true grade aliphatic polyurea such as ours. You can take our system outside and not worry about UV exposure; theirs they will not warranty. While chipping into a polyurea base coat is only done with our certified contractor grade Citadel Floor Finishing System our base coat for our DIY Rock Solid Floors kit is a very unique blend in which once mixed it has a great pot life of two hours but once rolled on the substrate it will cure in 1 hour. So getting great chip coverage is simple. Even my CFO and his wife whom are not the most handy of people put down a 900 sqft garage in 8 hours that would put other professional systems like the one you mentioned to shame. As far as any repair to substrate our Rock Solid Crack and Spall fill does an excellent job of filling these voids and can be immedialty coated without having to wait 24 hours. We have developed a complete flooring solution for both the proffesional as well as the DIY market.

http://rocksolidfloors.com

 

[ooman]

If the stuff is based on the same material used for bed liners, I wonder about its longevity. We have a Herculiner lined pick-up bed, and it definitely shows serious fading. Since it doesn't see much use, I can only imagine that it's due to Sun exposure.

 

[www.rocksolidfloors.com]

That particular product is not the same as our aliphatic pure grade Polyurea designed specifically for industrial protective coatings. The reason that most of those type of products are black is because they are not UV stable. They are know in the coatings industry as aromatic as opposed to our aliphatic Polyurea which is extremely UV stable so much so we offer a lifetime warranty against abnormal fading or yellowing. This is unheard of in the DIY coatings marketplace until NOW. Check out the UV stable colors available at our website www.rocksolidfloors.com .

www.rocksolidfloors.com

 

[MrCrewcab]

So what is the texture of the finish, also how about covering cracks and imperfections. I want to do my garage floor (about 920 sq ft) but at a cost of about $2500 it has to work great. I have lots of questions to ask, what is the next step? I know the stuff in my truck box is tuff as hell and very forgiving, if this product is like that, it could be awesome.

KevinR

 

[www.rocksolidfloors.com]

You are right the product is awsome because it is even tougher than the bed liner materials. As far as filling crack and spalling of concrete we have a crack fill material that can be used and immedialty coated allowing for the floor to still be completed in one day. For more information please phone Mon-Fri 866-765-4310.

 

[sixty4]

Hi Patrick, ordered through Bruce Via? DBI Corp. Will post up pics when completed....
Thanks...... Be prepared to sell a ton of this if it comes out like we are expecting!!!!!!
Mark (sixty4)....

 

[www.rocksolidfloors.com]

Mark,

Product is shipping Monday. I was waiting to get a few T-shirts printed to toss in for you. Thanks

 

[sixty4]

Thanks I will post up some pics when done! We have three others waiting on the first one to get done!

 

[JD in DFW]

It will burn through the Citadel/RS product just like any other floor coating product. Tell me what you see on the surface of most wielding shops......concrete, very few I have ever seen that have a specialty coating system on them where alot of wielding takes place. Extreme heat even if it's only for a few seconds will leave a burn mark in just about any Polyurea floor coating system I have done or seen. Polyurea is great and does an awesome job, but it does have it's limitations as all coatings do.
I have used the Citadel product and it is a good product, it's a two part which I really do not care for, but other than that it's fine. I use and prefer a single component polyurea/polyaspartic, less waste, more productivity and less materials to transport.
One thing that I think was not emphasized enough was the concrete floor prep process in this whole discussion. If you want a good floor finish and the products to bond correctly with the concrete you must grind....all there is to it. Acid etching is a cheap short cut that can come back to bite you in the @ss and in the end cause a floor coating failure. I can not stress that enough...let a professional do the floor. you'll get a better coating, it will be done right and best of all you wont have to bust your rump!
Also as noted the polyureas have a very short pot life....and I mean short when the temperatures start to rise. If you don't know what your doing and don't have a good application process and routine, the product will cure up before you even get around to broadcasting the chip...and then you have 100's of ft2 of floor coating materials that you will have wasted and will have to re-coat in order to get the chip to set up. Don't ask me how I know. Have never lost a whole floor like that, but have had to redo a section due to the fast curing cycle that most polyureas have. Save yourself the time and money and hire a professional. I think Citadel has trained applicators (I am not one of them as I use a different product) one of these guys can have the job done quickly and correctly in a day or so. Or if you feel like you can take on the job I would make sure you have plenty of extra materials and all the needed tools to do it right, and Prep...prep...prep...cant say it enough.
Good luck with whatever direction you end up going.
JD

 

[www.rocksolidfloors.com]

I agree with JD on most of his comments. I agree that grinding the concrete is the best way for profiling a floor but that technology is not available to the DIY market and acid etching has been around and used widely for decades. The key is doing it properly and making sure that the floor is neutralized; that is why in each one of our DIY Rock Solid kits is a a great safe etch acid solution and we recommend washing the floor 3 times after the application to ensure that all the contaminants have been removed. As far as the product setting up too fast for good chip coverage this could be true for or professional grade Citadel system but not with the remarkable DIY Rock Solid Floors systems. The base coat in which the chips are broadcast into is very unique in the fact that it has a 3 hour pot life but when it is rolled out it will set up in 1 hour. So you are able to take your time and roll out sections and chip them as you go without concern of a pot life. Finally based on chemistry it is impossible to have a true Polyaspartic Polyurea in a single component.FACT.

 

[JD in DFW]

I agree with JD on most of his comments. I agree that grinding the concrete is the best way for profiling a floor but that technology is not available to the DIY market and acid etching has been around and used widely for decades. The key is doing it properly and making sure that the floor is neutralized; that is why in each one of our DIY Rock Solid kits is a a great safe etch acid solution and we recommend washing the floor 3 times after the application to ensure that all the contaminants have been removed. As far as the product setting up too fast for good chip coverage this could be true for or professional grade Citadel system but not with the remarkable DIY Rock Solid Floors systems. The base coat in which the chips are broadcast into is very unique in the fact that it has a 3 hour pot life but when it is rolled out it will set up in 1 hour. So you are able to take your time and roll out sections and chip them as you go without concern of a pot life. Finally based on chemistry it is impossible to have a true Polyaspartic Polyurea in a single component.FACT.

Couple of questions for you:
If you are acid etching and rinsing the floor multiple times how are you getting a 1 day floor completion? With all the rinses you recommend and then allowing the floor to completely dry how are you getting a 2-car garage prepped, base coat and chip and then time to cure and completed with the clear top coat in one days time?

With regard to the single component Polyurea...you might need to do alittle more digging. I buy it and use it on a daily basis in large quantities (50-70gl a month or more) , I though will not advertise the company that I purchase it from as this is not the place. Which leads me to me next questions.
Are you a sponsor on this board or site? I see you adversing your site quite a bit in your posts, so I was just curious?

Also please provide what the actual coverage rate is on your base coat and the clear....please include what the average temp was or is on these coverage numbers.

Not trying to stir the pot here, just looking for and clarifying some points of interests on the topic.

JD

 

[www.rocksolidfloors.com]

No problem I would like to address your concerns. First our primer uses moisture wicking technology and can be applied to moist concrete. So after the floor is washed you need to wait about an hour and then prime the floor. The floor is easily done in one day no problem. Please keep in mind this is for the DIY Rock Solid System. I know that there are single component Polyurea but there is not a true single component Polyaspartic Polyurea. Check with Bayer chemical whom developed all the Polyaspartic Technology. Lets talk offline to clear this up.

 

[JD in DFW]

Dear RS,
I had no real concerns...really just making some points and adding to the discussion and had a few questions for you. I would be happy to speak with you, but please for the benefit of all here provide the requested info with regard to coverage, temp for coverage stated and sponsorship of this site by Rock Solid Floors/Citadel, since I did ask these questions on a public forum.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the Polyurea/Polyaspartic single component...after alot of personal research(over 18 months) I found a source and manufacturer, which again I will not disclose out of respect for the owners/sponsors of this forum as well as my personal interests.....if you really do your homework you can find out. Yes I agree Bayer Chemical was the first with the Polyaspartic, but since then there have been many others that have followed, Citadel being one. Some manufactures have taken the chemistry through additional steps and levels. The company I deal with is so far removed from the whole garage floor coatings industry it's not even funny...and they produce a great product which I have been using for some time with excellent results in residential garage/car dealership application as a coating.

Do you work for Citadel or are you a Distributor/Contractor for them??

 

[thegarageguy]

Actually Bayer invented it but Texaco made it commercially viable in spray form for primarily chemical tank liners and used on bridges. Only recently has been available in a pourable, spreadable form. The base polymer is still only produced by Bayer and sold to distributors. Its a great chemical but it has its limitations. One system does not fit all.

I think the problem rocksolid is that 15 out of your 15 posts where to pimp your product. Even Wolverine wasnt as transparent.

Bottom line is that there are a few professional installers on this forum that are here to help and not push product or sales. You havent offered any help but to sell your "remarkable" DYI kit.

Me personally, I'm not weary of your product but your prep method. Acid etching is too inconsistant and will not penetrate all concrete surfaces the same. Very risky, specially when paying that much for your product.

 

[ron in sc]

Acid etching is too inconsistant and will not penetrate all concrete surfaces the same.

Do you mean all concrete surfaces in the same slab? I ask because I'm going to have to do something with the concrete in my garage soon. The concrete has never been sealed and no curing compounds were used. Concrete does have a relatively smooth finish since it was power trowelled. It's been covered during contruction so it's not contaminated with paint and drywall mud. I'm now leaning toward the clear Sherwin Williams Armorseal 1000 HS

 

[www.rocksolidfloors.com]

The coverage rates for our system is 300-400 sqft/gal for each the primer and base coat of the sytem as well as a top coat range of 150-350 sqft/gal depending on the broadcast media uses. i.e. Quartz, Chips etc. The application temperature range is -20 deg F to 140 deg F. and this is well documented in the fact we have proven applications in these ranges in Canada and South Africa. I hope this answers your inquiry.

 

[www.rocksolidfloors.com]

I think the problem rocksolid is that 15 out of your 15 posts where to pimp your product. Even Wolverine wasnt as transparent.

.

I agree with you about too much self serving; sometimes I get carried away, sorry. I am only responding to questions. I did not start this thread and will only respond to information which is untrue or just unknown about advanced coatings systems.

 

[sixty4]

I was the original person to post this tread. I think it will be a great product for me to use. Yes as any product its all about the prep! I don't think rocksolid is in any way shape or form trying to mislead anyone. I found Citadel on the net and wanted to pass on a product that I am going with. Now if you talk directly with them they take all the time you want and will explain any thing you need to know! They even offer training classes if interested.I will post my pics up when finished and be very honest on how it went..... I will follow the directions to the letter and do plan on buzzing my entire floor first. I am looking forward to working with Rocksolid in the future.... Bottom line is I brought this product up to show yet another type of floor, so lets all get along......

 

[JD in DFW]

I agree with you about too much self serving; sometimes I get carried away, sorry. I am only responding to questions. I did not start this thread and will only respond to information which is untrue or just unknown about advanced coatings systems.

The coverage rates for our system is 300-400 sq ft/gal for each the primer and base coat of the sytem as well as a top coat range of 150-350 sqft/gal depending on the broadcast media uses. i.e. Quartz, Chips etc. The application temperature range is -20 deg F to 140 deg F. and this is well documented in the fact we have proven applications in these ranges in Canada and South Africa. I hope this answers your inquiry.

Actually you still have not answered my questions with regard to your sponsorship of this site by yourself or your company?

If you own, work for or are a contractor for Citadel?

The spec's you offer above I must really question. You are telling me you can cover 300-400 ft2 with your base coat and still have a mil thickness adequately enough to receive and hold a full broad casted chip/flake of 1/4" in size which is pretty much the standard these days??
Just for theory sakes lets say I pour out 1 gal of whole or even 2% milk on my prepped garage floor, I think I would be safe in saying I could not even cover 300 ft2 if I tried to roll out or spread with a squeegee this one gallon of material/milk. Now I do not know what consistency your DIY polyurea base coat is your advertising here, but the Citadel Polyurea I have used in the past in temperatures ranging from 75-95 degrees I was lucky if I was able to spread it out to 200 ft2 and that was with a thickness of maybe 1 mil. This was with a diamond ground floor and using your primer coat first.
On that point, with the above area coverage rates that you have stated above what would be your mil thickness be at say the 300-400 ft2 you stated above? Also with whatever mil thickness you provide for the coverage rates above, what would be the pot life(set up time on the floor) at this mil thickness once your product was spread out/rolled out onto a grounded prepped concrete floor or for theory sake, a acid etched prepped concrete floor(which is the worst way to prep a floor and can do serious damage to your existing concrete)?

Not trying to incite a debate here, really just want to get the facts straight with regard to the product your offering here and the spec's that you have provided here as well.

Since this discussion was done on a public forum I ask that all spec's and replies be done on the forum rather then in a PM or e-mail so all can be "learned"/educated by the information provided by you as either the manufacturer, Distributor or contractor....which I am still not sure what category you fall under.
Thanks,
JD

 

[MrCrewcab]

...after alot of personal research(over 18 months) I found a source and manufacturer, which again I will not disclose out of respect for the owners/sponsors of this forum...

JD in DFW, why can't you tell us which product you prefer to use? I thought the purpose of the forum was to spread the word without being controlled by sponsors and such (come to think of it who are the sponsors?). When all I want to do is coat my garage floor with the best product that I can get for a reasonable price, the rhetoric is painful. Trust me, if I knew what to use, I would gladly pass it on.

Hell If I knew what I was doing and you lived close I would come over and help

KevinR

 

[thegarageguy]

Bottom line MrCrewCab is most proffessional floor installers use more than one manufacturer. My company uses 5 different manufacturers. And I have a ton of different formulations to choose from depending on what the floor is going to be used for. Basically most pros find what works for them through trial and error and stick with it. Except for the Franchise guys, they are stuck with what their supplier sells them.

There is no one perfect flooring product.

 

[MrCrewcab]

What I get from this is that if you are a pro then you won't divulge any information about the way that you have found that works great or the material to use that works the best.

I am pretty sure that 95% of the guys that are looking to finish the floor on this site all have the same requirements. Mine are something that is durable, won’t do the hot tire pickup, and looks great. I just want to park my truck and do a little bit of mechanic work on it.

Some guys want something that is real easy and real cheap. They are the other 5%

I have been in the same trade for 28 years (it has absolutely nothing to do with flooring though) and if someone asks my opinion then I will answer to the best of my abilities.

We are just a bunch of DIYers that need a little (OK a lot) of guidance with doing our floors.

To all the Pros out there - Is there anything that you have had excellent success with?
Is there anything that you have had no success with, If so, what was the cause?
What is the best way to prep the floor, acid or grinding?
Have you ever had hot tire pickup happen? If so what was the most probable cause?
What part of the job sounds the easiest but is actually the hardest?

Any constructive info given would be greatly appreciated by many

Maybe it’s just me but I thought that the purpose of the forum was to help one another, not to pick apart someone’s product and not give a better alternative.

KevinR

 

[WolverineCoatings]

I know where he (JD) is coming from... You see, anyone can view these forums and he doesn't want to give valuable information to his competitors on the net... I bet he might PM you though... maybe?

I'm going to ask some questions that haven't been asked that I think is information that should be known that is being withheld. Keep in mind, we don't sell into the DIY market at all anymore and I can't ever recall competing with Rocksolid/Citadel anywhere in the US... or world for that matter. So, my questions are not about any benefit to our own company. And, I don't know JD as far as I know.

Anyway, I've skimmed this a bit... We also make Polyaspartic Coatings and Polyureas. We don't offer those to just anyone. Most of what we do require much more chemical resistance than a polyaspartic can take. It sounds like the DIY product contains solvent but I never saw where it actually said if it did or didn't. To me, being a formulator and knowing Polyaspartic technology since the early 90s I've been a bit confused. It seems like there are two products being discussed but you never know which one is being talked about? From my point of view... there is a 100% solids product and then a DIY product that might be ? maybe about 80% solids guessing from the cure speed. I don't see anywhere where it is clear what you get for the money.

I mean, if you need a really quick return to service and exterior durability then a polyaspartic is a natural chemistry for that. Does anyone understand what you get for the money?

It seems like this is MUCH more expensive than the other options here and you end up with a much thinner floor than U-Coat It, Epoxy-Coat, or BudgetBob.

400 ft2 per gallon is about 4 mils if 100% solids and only 3.2 mils if 80% solids...
300ft2 per gallon is 5.3 mils if 100% solids and only 4.3 mils if 80% solids...

Most of you guys that we have worked with when we were in the DIY market had some beat up floors. (You guys must use your garages) Anyway, the thicker you put product down the more bad surface you are going to cover. Even most new floors have little potholes and pitmarks that would not be covered up with only a few mils.

So, what am I missing?

* PS, I'm not asking this to just open up an opportunity for RockSolid to plug his product. I don't sell them anything (that I know of) and if I know him I'm not aware of it (I know alot of people in the paint industry). Polyaspartic chemisty is good and may be a good option for some of you. But, I think when you are comparing floors you need to know exactly what you are getting for the money. I don't want to put words in JD's mouth but it just seemed that he was feeling like this wasn't adding up in his mind either.