Chinese Tools...get them while you can?!?

[dwm]

Turkey's economy has been growing pretty steadily for about 10 years. I have to laugh that Turkey's PM and others have been calling the EU "The overweight, artery-clogged dietician that has a good prescription Turkey has followed but the EU can't seem to take themselves." while simultaneously courting the EU for full membership.

China's just doing what they must. Don't plan on the west buying everything produced; the west is flat broke and the future in the EU and North America is pretty gloomy. That's not good news. Businesses (regardless of location) don't make money when there are no buyers with money to spend.

 

[hofferwood]

Well played,Kel.

 

[cundifc]

One of the main reason us tools are superior to alot of other nations is because if the high grade of steel used in production. China has crappy steel compared to us made. So no matter where it's made and who makes it, it will be **** if they use ****** steel.

 

[oldtools]

One of the main reason us tools are superior to alot of other nations is because if the high grade of steel used in production. China has crappy steel compared to us made. So no matter where it's made and who makes it, it will be **** if they use ****** steel.

So what happen if the US use ****** steel and the Chinese use high quality steel?

 

[treasureseeker]

It's pretty sad when we're looking at communist politicians with admiration.

Either way, this is damned good news for American tool manufacturing.

But we already have a communist politician leader that some look at with admiration

 

[blarf]

But we already have a communist politician leader that some look at with admiration

 

[housey]

Jobs will leave China eventually...but manufacturing will never come back here. There is still a lot of Asian and the entire african continent to exploit.

Africa is definately an interesting one. Wages are cheap, but the massive rates of theft and political instability make quite a few enterprises just not viable, and it won't change unless there is a major change over there. My old man has runs a few supermarkets over there and its not uncommon for him to lose $50,000US of stock in a single day to theft, costs of transporting money is massive, armoured vehicles get held up all the time. Pity considering they have massive deposits of resources and something like 30% of the worlds arable land, who knows what will happen. To quote something a racist south african man once said to me, "the only problem with africa is blacks"

 

[danski0224]

Heat registers/diffusers at a local big box store:

(1) Once upon a time, made in the USA and branded Hart and Cooley

(2) Then moved to Mexico

(3) Then moved to China and Mexico. Name change to Ameriflow (small print: by Hart and Cooley)

(4) Now a different manufacturer, made in Vietnam.

Sad thing is the new ones made in Vietnam are thicker steel and look better. They must be cheaper at the wholesale level, or else there is no reason to switch. The old stock of Ameriflow/H&C was palletized and dumpstered.

 

[Monte]

reference customers list of the turkish forge Kanca:

http://www.kanca.com.tr/Default.asp?Site=KANCA&Section=Page&Act=Detail&GroupID=5&ID=5

 

[BHH]

It comes down to will power. If you want your tools to be made in the great US of A than you must shell out the extra to buy USA made. Sure it cost more. but it also helps out OUR economy more. This holiday season you should really strive to only support American Made products. That goes for all presents!

 

[HandyManny]

One of the main reason us tools are superior to alot of other nations is because if the high grade of steel used in production. China has crappy steel compared to us made. So no matter where it's made and who makes it, it will be **** if they use ****** steel.

I don't know about that. The iron ore isn't much different under the ground in China than it is anywhere else. China is an industrial nation very well capable of making or at least acquiring quality steel. I'm sure they do in many cases, likely for their own use. It's all a matter of how you smelt that iron ore or what you mix that iron with, what other elements are added to make that steel. China has had this knowledge in metallurgy for centuries long before we were even a country. Besides even the best steel isn't going to be any good or very useful if it isn't tempered and heat treated properly. That goes for all steel. You might be too young to remember but there was a time when the steel we were using here in USA manufacturing was actually being imported because most of our steel mills had closed down. There was also a time during the 19th century when the British were exporting low quality cheap steel to the US, and we used it for many things. Plus I have a hard time believing that the steel used in those Chinese made AK-47's is junk.

 

[HandyManny]

Cheap labor seems to be what most people here keep refereing to. Does anyone here actually know the history of the USA? There was a time not long ago in the pre-WWII years and going back when Child Labor and sweatshops were a big problem. Does anyone have any idea what working condition and low pay must have been like in this country in the late 18th century, throughout the 19th century, and the early part of the 20th centruy??? Anyone?? No such thing as fair wages, unions, or fair working conditions back then. That was here in the USA.

Sure working conditions have changed for the most part but companies here still today are always looking to get the chepest labor they can.

 

[chewy7]

Good china, get your **** and gtfo.

 

[kv501]

Cheap labor seems to be what most people here keep refereing to. Does anyone here actually know the history of the USA? There was a time not long ago in the pre-WWII years and going back when Child Labor and sweatshops were a big problem. Does anyone have any idea what working condition and low pay must have been like in this country in the late 18th century, throughout the 19th century, and the early part of the 20th centruy??? Anyone?? No such thing as fair wages, unions, or fair working conditions back then. That was here in the USA.

Sure working conditions have changed for the most part but companies here still today are always looking to get the chepest labor they can.

Cheap labor is what is being referred to because that is what is drives American companies to sell imported goods. Whether you think low wages and poor working conditions are bad or not, it doesn't change the concept that people as a whole will buy what is cheapest, regardless of whether some underage worker with no shoes working 19 hrs a day made it or not. That is a fact. What we need to realize here is that even though this forum is made up of people who like to support the U.S. and spend more for a SO ratchet made in the US, the other 99% of the population will not. They are happy to get a $5.99 ratchet at Walmart made in a sweatshop because not many people can justify $175 for a SO. The gist of your OP (which came from a crackpot source, BTW) was that Chinese workers are making more money because of increased exports to western countries, in turn are having better standards of living, and in turn again may decrease their exports to fill their own needs. Cheap labor started it in the first place.

If cheap labor starts to disappear in China (which it won't), it will move to other places.

 

[kv501]

And just to cap things off, anyone who is taking this article seriously needs to Google "The Washington Times" and "Sun Myung Moon."

Nuff said.

 

[HandyManny]

My point being that most Americans unkowingly supported that cheap domestic labor in the past. It's not just a Chinese thing.

I have high regard for all my older USA made professional quality hand tools. They were bough at various times as needed years ago when I was wrenching for a living. They are a mix match of various quality US made brands, some no longer in business anymore. I paid a fair price for most of them back in the day. But who's to say what the labor conditions and pay was like for the people who actually made them back then? Regardless, all I can say from owning and using these tools over the years is that there was a time in this country when American workers gave a damn and took pride in their work. I still prefere to buy American, but only if the quality is still there. Why sould I pay more for something just because it's stamped USA if the quality is no longer up to snuff? Plus there is no assurance these days it was actually made by an American anyway.

 

[diesel research]

Hmm, a real time to celebrate.

Soon, if we are lucky, we all can be working in a factory for minimum wage producing exports.

Don't worry, it's a "good" sign that companies are beginning to look at the US as the next source of cheap labor....

 

[route246]

This is an understatement. Rev. Sun Myung Moon or the Unification Church ring a bell? How about those people selling flowers on street corners? It's beyond fakey.

2. The Washington Times is a fakey newspaper. If you have never heard of it before, research just a little and you will see it's a conservative op-ed started in 1982. I'm not picking sides but be careful where you get your world news from (They could have been a little more creative than crossing the names of The Washington Post and New York Times... )

 

[Roots]

America have outsource many jobs to foreigners, but can we reverse it and bring the job back into America?

It's already happening in the manufacturing and technology sectors, primarily for semi-skilled and skilled labor.

 

[HandyManny]

Hmm, a real time to celebrate.

Soon, if we are lucky, we all can be working in a factory for minimum wage producing exports.

Don't worry, it's a "good" sign that companies are beginning to look at the US as the next source of cheap labor....

Keep in mind that into the early part of the 20th century up to about the dawn of WWII Switzerland was considered a place of cheap labor and inexpensive operating costs too. Now things are terribly expensive there, even just to live, and they don't produce half of their products domestically anymore.

 

[HandyManny]

Heat registers/diffusers at a local big box store:

(1) Once upon a time, made in the USA and branded Hart and Cooley

(2) Then moved to Mexico

(3) Then moved to China and Mexico. Name change to Ameriflow (small print: by Hart and Cooley)

(4) Now a different manufacturer, made in Vietnam.

Sad thing is the new ones made in Vietnam are thicker steel and look better. They must be cheaper at the wholesale level, or else there is no reason to switch. The old stock of Ameriflow/H&C was palletized and dumpstered.

If we can't produce good quality at a fair or reasonable price/cost in this country anymore, then we've doomed ourselves and have no one to blame for it but us. I hate it when I see other countries producing goods equal or better in quality than most of our current domestic production, but at less expense. If we can't keep up or do better, then who's fault is that? Like I've said here before, there was a time in this country when your average American worker took pride is their jobs. At some point Americans have decided it wasn't in their best interest to do a good job anymore. I see it all too often these days. My point is that there is more money being made out there in this country than at anyother time in history. Most American workers just aren't worth what they get paid these days. My point is that you better damn well be worth the money you make, if not, it's you who are bottoming out the market. That goes for everyone, from the guy sweeping the floor to the people running the show.

 

[american lockpicker]

Keep in mind that into the early part of the 20th century up to about the dawn of WWII Switzerland was considered a place of cheap labor and inexpensive operating costs too. Now things are terribly expensive there, even just to live, and they don't produce half of their products domestically anymore.

You would be suprised what is made in Switzerland.

 

[oldtools]

Isn't New York unionized custodian make $100,000 a year? Demanding outrageous wage for unskilled labor is what make doing business in America so expensive. If you demand too much, eventually you will loose your job.

 

[HandyManny]

You would be suprised what is made in Switzerland.

No, what suprises me is how much (or how little) of a finished product that carries the "Swiss Made" lable is actually made in Switzerland. Roughly 50% of the finished products components is all that Swiss law requires to be labled as Swiss Made. Many of those so-called Swiss made products are actually sourced or made in Asian countries or final assembly there. And what is made there in Switzerland today is way overpriced anyway. But I will say that in general the quality is impeccable for the stuff that is actually made in Switzerland.

 

[american lockpicker]

Why shouldn't they make that much? Cost of living is high, he does a job most wouldn't want and he/she might have a family to take care of.

 

[oldtools]

There are plenty of people willing to do that job for alot less if there is no union to prevent the city from only hiring union workers. There are non unionized engineers out there that make less than that.

 

[HandyManny]

Why shouldn't they make that much? Cost of living is high, he does a job most wouldn't want and he/she might have a family to take care of.

Cost of living is high? I don't know about that. In this country, is it the high cost of living? Or, is it the cost of living high? We make more today and pay far less for stuff in general than we did even 30 years ago. I recall a time when there was no discount retailers or wholesalers open to the public like Costco or Walmart. Most of us paid full retail price for most things back in the day. I can buy a good pair of jeans today for $19.99. In 1985 a good pair of jeans sold for roughtly $16.99 to $17.99. $19.99 in todays money was worth roughtly $9 in 1985, couldn't find a good pair of jeans for $9 in those days I'll tell ya. In 1955 I paid just under a buck for 1 lb of coffee. Today I get much better quality coffee for roughtly $7.99 to $8.99 a pound. .99 cents then adjusted for inflation gives you about $8 in todays money. Cars cost today are equal in price than they were in the 50's when you adjust for inflation of todays cost, but we get many more miles out of them today and much better fuel economy today than we did in the 1950's. So forgive me if I have a hard time believing that most things are anymore expensive today than they were in the past.

In todays world we've simply added more unnessesary expenses to our lives, but I would not say the cost of living per wages has gone up. Only thing that has skyrocketed today is real estate. But overall Americans just don't know how to manage their own money and then they complain that everything is so expensive today. I disagree that things are more expensive today, to me they are actually less expensive. The average middle class American todays lives in more luxury than the average middle class American did even 20 years ago.

 

[diesel research]

One of the main reason us tools are superior to alot of other nations is because if the high grade of steel used in production. China has crappy steel compared to us made. So no matter where it's made and who makes it, it will be **** if they use ****** steel.

You need to research more on this topic. Breaking a cheap socket and looking at it is no way to make all inclusive metallurgical statement.

When they pulled the smaller barges up to our dock (larger ship further out to see) we would load them up with 60million pounds of steel to export to china. Other times large quantities of aluminum or copper.

Reading more on their alloying, they can and do produce a satisfactory alloy if the customer is willing to pay for it. Of course, many customers do not elect options of higher grade alloys, advanced post treatment, or tighter machining tolerances. The capability is there, but the cost is increased due to simple transportation.

___________________________

I believe many are hoping that manufacturers bring back a manufacturing boom n the US and a similar era of prosperity like the 50s occurs. Truth is, that isn't so likely.

• We already had planned obsolescence and consumerism beginning to take place
• We "removed" 500,000 from the workforce, making room for others to fill those jobs. These were the fallen of WWII. Mostly men of the prime working age.
• We destroyed rest of the worlds manufacturing capability, therefore they HAD to import from us.
• We expanded government to new proportions, creating a lot of "fake" jobs
• "Military-industrial complex speech" anyone?
• We had just came out of a depression with many willing to do any job they could. A majority of GJ members have already stated they would not work as a production line worker, many of the rest of the population feels the same.

Many other reasons why this time a growth of manufacturing may not be anywhere close to the same.

 

[blarf]

There are plenty of people willing to do that job for alot less if there is no union to prevent the city from only hiring union workers. There are non unionized engineers out there that make less than that.

IOW, you should get a fair wage, but everyone else deserves ****? Ehhhh. How about the ratio of peon to executive wages? That's gone bezerk over the past twenty odd years with American CEOs making roughly 400 times what their average factory worker. Back in the "good old days" it was about 40:1. But, you know, it's those pesky factory workers who are to blame.

Hell, as far as public sector wages go... union or not, they're generally significantly lower than private sector wages. Right out of college I interviewed with the local school district and a little startup. The startup offered an environment where I'd be responsible for roughly 25-30 people. The school offered me a chance to hone my skills... with roughly two /hundred/ sites under my domain and six other people at my level doing what I would have been doing.

The non-union startup offered me a salary of $70,000, some stock options, and decent benefits.

The (presumably) union school district had a starting salary of $48,000-$62,000 DoE, more generous vacation time, and a bunch of hoops to jump through in order to get to the top pay grade.

I've since looked around at other public institutions (universities, other city departments). The pay is typically about $10-40,000 per year less than I'd get in the private sector. OTOH the public sector jobs offer me a predictable 9-5 schedule. Working at a startup often involves weekend duty and 12-20 hour jobs.

I can buy a good pair of jeans today for $19.99. In 1985 a good pair of jeans sold for roughtly $16.99 to $17.99. $19.99 in todays money was worth roughtly $9 in 1985, couldn't find a good pair of jeans for $9 in those days I'll tell ya.

Doubt it. Those 1985 jeans were almost certainly much higher quality than what you'd find today.

As my American made Levis have worn out, and their third world counterparts are torn to shreds I've been looking elsewhere. Yes, there are cheaper brands, but damn are they low quality. Your decent pair of jeans runs about $40 (and if you're an unusual size, maybe $50-$60).

Levis has started bringing manufacturing jobs back to the states to market a premium line of jeans starting around $200 a pair. American Apparel, a company that manufactures all of their clothing in Los Angeles, has jeans (that definitely don't fit me) for around $70-$80 a pair.

And, no, most wages have not generally increased along with inflation. On top of that, the number of employers providing defined benefit pensions or health insurance has declined sharply.

 

[kythri]

Hell, as far as public sector wages go... union or not, they're generally significantly lower than private sector wages.

Oregon's public employee salary information was made public and published on the web last year, which quickly put the lie to similar propaganda pushed by the public employee unions.

I realize that it may not hold everywhere, but (since we're making generalizations), generally, public employees make significantly more than they advertise when trying to extort more out of the taxpayers.

 

[Bolster]

And just to cap things off, anyone who is taking this article seriously needs to Google "The Washington Times" and "Sun Myung Moon." Nuff said.

OK time out. All this off-topic damning of the source of the article.

One, the W.T. isn't the only source observing the massive economic slowdown in China. Sheesh. Stick your head out the window, you will observe a nearly worldwide depres -- oh, right, REcession.

Two, what media source DO you trust? The Washington Post? Is CNN or MSNBC your unimpeachable guide to Truth with a capital T? What news source isn't "fakey" when it serves their interests to be? Do you think the internet is any less filled to overflowing with disinformation?

Third, if the source is so rotten, what's the countervailing information? Is there evidence that everything's just hunky dorey in China, that things will stay as they have been? That Chinese tools are now and forever more will be the COO that we see in the local stores?

If it's in the media (or on the internet), you take it with a grain of salt, period. Most people get that. When you start throwing partisan rocks at one side and not the other, that just tells us how you vote, nothing more.

Now back to the otherwise excellent discussion about the future of Chinese tools....

 

[catfish]

You would be suprised what is made in Switzerland.

It is true that they run a trade surplus.

Anyway , China is probably better than Zimbabwe,Sudan or whatever other hellhole they will be making tools in a few years to cut costs.I know Levis jeans has a factory in Lesotho (Landlocked country within South Africa , highest rate of AIDS on earth) so it's heading in that direction , a race to the bottom if you will.

 

[catfish]

Levis has started bringing manufacturing jobs back to the states to market a premium line of jeans starting around $200 a pair. American Apparel, a company that manufactures all of their clothing in Los Angeles, has jeans (that definitely don't fit me) for around $70-$80 a pair.

AA probably isn't the best example , i know that the CEO pays the staff more than double the minimum wage.AA is pretty close to bankruptcy , they make a loss each year and expanded their retail network too fast.

Also for US made jeans check out Texas jean co and Diamond Gusset
I get alot of stuff from theunionshop.org (all US made/Canadian made clothing at good prices)

 

[diesel research]

It is true that they run a trade surplus.

Anyway , China is probably better than Zimbabwe,Sudan or whatever other hellhole they will be making tools in a few years to cut costs.

Next "hellhole" USA.

Back Shoring

 

[Roots]

Isn't New York unionized custodian make $100,000 a year? Demanding outrageous wage for unskilled labor is what make doing business in America so expensive.

When that hit the news, I believe they also mentioned that was after 22 years of service or something. Starting pay, would likely be considered barely middle class by NYC living standards, and remain that way for years. There was around 2 dozen custodial engineers whom made a good bit more than that who made headlines, however one really also needs to take into account that they were working absolutely insane hours, equivalent to doing two full time jobs and more.

You need to research more on this topic. Breaking a cheap socket and looking at it is no way to make all inclusive metallurgical statement.

Reading more on their alloying, they can and do produce a satisfactory alloy if the customer is willing to pay for it. Of course, many customers do not elect options of higher grade alloys, advanced post treatment, or tighter machining tolerances. The capability is there, but the cost is increased due to simple transportation.

Spot on! Some of the most start of the art high-tech manufacturing facilities right now are in Asia. When Chinese factories bid on manufacturing American goods, the quality of the product is one of the pivotal roles in the cost, and completely spelled out along with the quality control. Unfortunately, since half the reason for outsourcing is to go as cheap as possible in manufacturing costs, quality and quality control quickly disintegrate. When high quality and high quality control, which are different, are requested and paid for... they're provided, but there's generally no or little cost savings versus producing in America.

I believe many are hoping that manufacturers bring back a manufacturing boom n the US and a similar era of prosperity like the 50s occurs. Truth is, that isn't so likely.

• We already had planned obsolescence and consumerism beginning to take place
• We "removed" 500,000 from the workforce, making room for others to fill those jobs. These were the fallen of WWII. Mostly men of the prime working age.
• We destroyed rest of the worlds manufacturing capability, therefore they HAD to import from us.
• We expanded government to new proportions, creating a lot of "fake" jobs
• "Military-industrial complex speech" anyone?
• We had just came out of a depression with many willing to do any job they could. A majority of GJ members have already stated they would not work as a production line worker, many of the rest of the population feels the same.

Many other reasons why this time a growth of manufacturing may not be anywhere close to the same.

Again, spot on, although I am rather optimistic on what American manufacturing can do if political bickering doesn't tear us apart.

 

[ncfh]

Seriously? An economic slump in Asia is not a reason to rejoice in America. Or to think that substantial tool making will return to NA.

The sooner the dumbshits of the world realize that it's all the workers of the world versus the politicians, big business/banking, the sooner we can ALL realize an economic "victory."

Geography no longer separates "us" from "them." It's purely money and power that divides the world today.


#1 reason for the decline in America's superiority, Americans.

 

[HandyManny]

You need to research more on this topic. Breaking a cheap socket and looking at it is no way to make all inclusive metallurgical statement.

When they pulled the smaller barges up to our dock (larger ship further out to see) we would load them up with 60million pounds of steel to export to china. Other times large quantities of aluminum or copper.

Reading more on their alloying, they can and do produce a satisfactory alloy if the customer is willing to pay for it. Of course, many customers do not elect options of higher grade alloys, advanced post treatment, or tighter machining tolerances. The capability is there, but the cost is increased due to simple transportation.

QUOTE]

This is exactly correct. Same goes for most other indutrialized countries as well.

 

[HandyManny]

IOW, you should get a fair wage, but everyone else deserves ****? Ehhhh. How about the ratio of peon to executive wages? That's gone bezerk over the past twenty odd years with American CEOs making roughly 400 times what their average factory worker. Back in the "good old days" it was about 40:1. But, you know, it's those pesky factory workers who are to blame.

Hell, as far as public sector wages go... union or not, they're generally significantly lower than private sector wages. Right out of college I interviewed with the local school district and a little startup. The startup offered an environment where I'd be responsible for roughly 25-30 people. The school offered me a chance to hone my skills... with roughly two /hundred/ sites under my domain and six other people at my level doing what I would have been doing.

The non-union startup offered me a salary of $70,000, some stock options, and decent benefits.

The (presumably) union school district had a starting salary of $48,000-$62,000 DoE, more generous vacation time, and a bunch of hoops to jump through in order to get to the top pay grade.

I've since looked around at other public institutions (universities, other city departments). The pay is typically about $10-40,000 per year less than I'd get in the private sector. OTOH the public sector jobs offer me a predictable 9-5 schedule. Working at a startup often involves weekend duty and 12-20 hour jobs.



Doubt it. Those 1985 jeans were almost certainly much higher quality than what you'd find today.

As my American made Levis have worn out, and their third world counterparts are torn to shreds I've been looking elsewhere. Yes, there are cheaper brands, but damn are they low quality. Your decent pair of jeans runs about $40 (and if you're an unusual size, maybe $50-$60).

Levis has started bringing manufacturing jobs back to the states to market a premium line of jeans starting around $200 a pair. American Apparel, a company that manufactures all of their clothing in Los Angeles, has jeans (that definitely don't fit me) for around $70-$80 a pair.

And, no, most wages have not generally increased along with inflation. On top of that, the number of employers providing defined benefit pensions or health insurance has declined sharply.

I don't know about that. Most jeans today are roughly the same quality today regardless of price. You have a point about 1985 costs when Levis 501's were bombproof in quality. Noboby makes jeans that sturdy today, well maybe Carhartt does.

As far as wages goes - just plug todays wages into an inflation calculator and go back in time. Research what ceratin jobs paid in the past. I think you'll find that overall the average American does make more today than in the past. Sure benefits have declined lately, but CEO's are making way more today than they ever did compared to their employees. Plus there was a time in the pre-WWII era when the average American worker didn't have nearly as much of the benefits we become accustomed to in the post-WWII era.