Chinese Tools, what happens when.....

[UncleJoe]

OK all Chicom tool bashing aside for just a minute, let's think about something.

I was watching the business channel last night and something sent my brain off on a weird tangent. When I was a kid in the 60's Japanese cars were a bad joke. Then in the 70's the Japanese began to make a lot of changes in design and quality and it would be easy to say that a Honda or Toyota today is a lot different than what they offered in the 60's. The styling and quality is now extremely competitive and have forced American companies to pay attention and make a better product.

Now to the point of this post. Today Chinese tools are in a similar product cycle as the 1960's Japanese cars. What happens when the powers that be in China decide to get busy? What happens when they concentrate on quality and can still keep their cost low because of their low labor costs? I can see a time in the future when they market a high quality tool. How will this affect the American tool companies who even if they have a solid relationship with their unions they are still burdened by pollution regulations and safety regulations that their Chinese competitors are not.

I am pretty certain that we, read the government which is you and me, will continue to place restrictions on American Companies. Americans want clean air and safe working environments and that is a very good thing. The Chinese government places more importance on having as many of its citizens employed than on clean air or workplace safety. This will always be a disadvantage to us and I am not advocating we give up clean air or safety but we do need some creative ways to deal with this issue so our companies can compete and we can keep some manufacturing jobs here.

I don't believe that there are any easy answers to this but I do believe that in the next 20 years the Chinese manufacturers will begin to put our a high quality product to really put the squeeze on the American manufacturing base.

I think that simply buying American is not enough.

Just my thoughts, what are yours?

 

[mrholeshot]

I know how you feel as I've seen the same cycle. The high quality tools are already out there. Companies like Gearwrench, Duralast, Genius,Toptul, Nepros. Koken can already compete with major US brands. But warranty issues with a company like Gearwrench would steer me away from those.

Sadly much of what you buy off of tool trucks (all of them) is made in asia. It's the wave of the future. It's happening now and I can't think of a single major tool maker who doesn't have some part of their line built in asia.

 

[UncleJoe]

I read with great interest of your recent warranty issues. To me that is a live or die issue with any tool manufacturer. I was shocked that they did not handle that properly. I read a few posts of people that had no problems with GW so I am wondering if it was a customer service rep issue or a company policy. If it was the CS rep then GW has a training issue. For the amount of money they have in an individual ratchet, not much actual cash, I would think they would just replace it and have a satisfied customer.

Companies in general are just starting to learn of the power of the internet and how a disgruntled customer can reach 1,000's with a post. In the old days an unhappy customer could tell his 5 drinking buddies and maybe they told someone but it was a small group. Now it is on the net and search-able by all future customers. The internet will eventually change the way companies treat customers.

 

[woody 73]

like mrholeshot said the quality is alread out there,it will not be much longer and you will see cornwell,snap-on, and the rest of the big names moving production away.

 

[TAMPAGT07]

Americans want clean air and safe working environments and that is a very good thing. The Chinese government places more importance on having as many of its citizens employed than on clean air or workplace safety. This will always be a disadvantage to us and I am not advocating we give up clean air or safety but we do need some creative ways to deal with this issue so our companies can compete and we can keep some manufacturing jobs here.

Yes, won't it be wonderful that when we are all regulated out of jobs, houses, cars, etc, that we will have clean air to breath...We will not have any food, but we will have nice clean air, up untill we starve...Then the Chinese will be able to move in and take our country and they will enjoy the clean air that we left them...

 

[granitestater]

You are correct about Japanese cars (and many other made in Japan products from the 1950s - 1960s).

The disparity in labor rates and environmental regulations between the US and China will continue to cost US jobs unless the US government imposes tariffs on imported goods. The Chinese have in the past, "dumped" products at below cost prices to capture market share. Look at the steel industry for proof of that. The Japanese on the other hand pay their employees well and make a quality product. When tariffs were threatened they opened US factories and still thrived. Honda, Marysville Ohio = US jobs.

US made tools are inexpensive compared to European made tools such as Hazet.

I think that US tool manufacturers that actually make something, such as Snap On (and its Williams line) and Channel Lock will continue to do well because they don't try to be the least expensive, only the best. Back in the 1980s Matco tools were far less expensive than Snap On. Today, they are the same price or higher in some cases but Snap On is still largely US made with some Blue Point as the exception, see:
http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/tools.html

But they make something, Craftsman (Sears) makes nothing and outsources everything. Last week I was at Sears and I saw the Craftsman high polished "Professional" combination wrench sets. Made in USA but... the NEW stock just said Craftsman, looked identical but was made in China and selling at the same price. My opinion, if I am getting Chinese made tools I want to pay Chinese prices = Harbor Freight. If I am paying US prices, I want US tools. I didn't buy the wrenches but they sure look to me like they come out of the same factory as the Harbor Freight polished wrenches which sell for a fraction of the price.

I was at a local hardware store yesterday and I saw 2 small wall board saws, a Stanley Fat Max made in China and a Great Neck that looked like it was low quality and made in China (most Great Neck tools are made in China) but the Great Neck was made in USA.

So what does this all mean? Buyer beware and if you can afford it, buy Snap On, Williams or Channel Lock which are know high quality tools.

 

[Mike83]

I think the OP's argument is flawed because it is not Chinese companies that are designing, manufacturing, marketing and selling these tools. It is US companies (in general) that are moving production to China to save cost (but in turn not passing those cost savings to the consumer.) The Chinese factories will produce whatever quality product is specified by the US company, which in fact can be very high and well controlled. Likewise, the Chinese can make a 2 cent ratchet from pot metal if that is what is asked for. I see stuff come from China that is nicer than US made (or at least indistinguishable.)

Toyota and Honda are examples of the global free market at work. Making Snap-on ratchets in China is just outsourcing.

I honestly think this is a moot point made by the OP. There is no question of quality coming from China. The buck stops at the QC specification and QC performed in the factory.

 

[UncleJoe]

Yes, won't it be wonderful that when we are all regulated out of jobs, houses, cars, etc, that we will have clean air to breath...We will not have any food, but we will have nice clean air, up untill we starve...Then the Chinese will be able to move in and take our country and they will enjoy the clean air that we left them...

I agree, I think we need to balance our regulations a bit and we need to apply some pressure to the Chinese to regulate their industries.

Maybe we could say you are not allowed to sell tools in this country unless the factory that produces the tools meets certain standards.

Of course if we do that the Chinese will say they aren't going to buy our bonds and then the Senators will not have the cash to give away to buy votes and the people that receive all those government handouts,paid by the Chinese, will riot and we will look a lot like Greece looks now.

 

[TAMPAGT07]

The bright side is that people like Al Gore have made 100's of millions from this fiasco..And will be able to buy a self sustaing island somewhere when we fold like a cheap Walmart tent on clearance. And no matter what the weather, (cold, hot, rainy, dry, cloudy, sunny, etc) it is all global warmings fault.

 

[Travis E.]

I think the OP's argument is flawed because it is not Chinese companies that are designing, manufacturing, marketing and selling these tools. It is US companies (in general) that are moving production to China to save cost (but in turn not passing those cost savings to the consumer.) The Chinese factories will produce whatever quality product is specified by the US company, which in fact can be very high and well controlled. Likewise, the Chinese can make a 2 cent ratchet from pot metal if that is what is asked for. I see stuff come from China that is nicer than US made (or at least indistinguishable.)

Toyota and Honda are examples of the global free market at work. Making Snap-on ratchets in China is just outsourcing.

I honestly think this is a moot point made by the OP. There is no question of quality coming from China. The buck stops at the QC specification and QC performed in the factory.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[chewy7]

Yes, won't it be wonderful that when we are all regulated out of jobs, houses, cars, etc, that we will have clean air to breath...We will not have any food, but we will have nice clean air, up untill we starve...Then the Chinese will be able to move in and take our country and they will enjoy the clean air that we left them...

I sure hope not lol

 

[Wakefield]

I think we have created a sort of environmental bureaucracy that needs to keep justifying its existence and continued growth. More laws,regulation means more budget dollars,power,more ability to hire more subordinate Federal employees. That creates a motivation to keep finding new problems that need new laws,more regulations,more taxes and fees.A reason to play up problems to make them look as big as possible. And an ever more restrictive environment for business and individuals.

 

[Butters]

Unfortunately, free trade isn't really fair trade. But if we want to keep any manufacturing in the US, it needs to be addressed. I have issues with the fact that so few things are made in the US anymore. I have even bigger issues with the fact that such a large percentage is made by ONE country. I don't believe this is good for the country and needs to be addressed even at the expense of ill effects on the economy.

While a lot of the manufacturing is done for US companies, the fact remains that the items are actually made elsewhere. Should the relationship with China sour, we are left with no manufacturing base. We all want to make money and have stuff. But we can't all be stockbrokers - the widgets still need to be made. Although it would hurt them greatly, China could devastate our economy if they chose to. They could handle it better as they are more self sufficient (manufacturing, food production, and they don't need to worry about how comfortable the population is).

Having some stuff built elsewhere allows us to have more stuff since it is cheaper. But in search of cheaper widgets, we have gone to an extreme. This is exacerbated by the fact that ONE SINGLE country is building the vast majority of our stuff. And as stated above, they can engage in unsavory tactics because profit isn't the only incentive.

I'm not saying we shouldn't deal with China. But we shouldn't deal so much with China even if it costs us a few bucks more.

 

[UncleJoe]

I think the OP's argument is flawed because it is not Chinese companies that are designing, manufacturing, marketing and selling these tools. It is US companies (in general) that are moving production to China to save cost (but in turn not passing those cost savings to the consumer.) The Chinese factories will produce whatever quality product is specified by the US company, which in fact can be very high and well controlled. Likewise, the Chinese can make a 2 cent ratchet from pot metal if that is what is asked for. I see stuff come from China that is nicer than US made (or at least indistinguishable.)

Toyota and Honda are examples of the global free market at work. Making Snap-on ratchets in China is just outsourcing.

I honestly think this is a moot point made by the OP. There is no question of quality coming from China. The buck stops at the QC specification and QC performed in the factory.

I guess my question is what happens to those companies that manufacture tools in America. You are correct that now it is mostly factories in China which will build to spec for any manufacturer. What happens when they become the marketers and the actual tool companies.

For example; how will a company like Channellock compete when an aggressive Chinese company decides to go after the Channellock customer base. Certainly their will be the same reaction as when the first Toyota's cam ashore. Toyota and others used great marketing campaigns to carve out market share.

There is nothing to stop a Chinese company from coming after the American market. In fact I am surprised it hasn't happened already.

I think our politicians from both parties have to get their heads out of their *** and begin to find ways to level the playing field. At this time we still have some leverage as China needs us about as much as we need them. If Americans stopped buying Chinese products it would lead to massive unemployment in China and uncontrollable riots in the streets of China. I am not an expert in these matters but I can read the writing on the wall.

A trade war would be bad for both countries. We need to get this thing worked out.

 

[Theloniousmonk]

No offense guys, but the idea of labor rates and environmental concerns are about a year or two out of date... wages have been rising drastically in china, they are juggling inflation right now... the new generation of professional workers is not putting up w/ substandard 3rd world working conditions, nor are they putting up with obscene air quality, etc... Chinese government understands and is adjusting to meet the wants/needs of their public - new environmental laws have taken effect and tougher standards s/b in place w/n a year... India/China labor rates are on par w/ US labor rates in terms of economic worth - essentially $3 hr in India ='s $15 an hour in the US... I'm just saying, a "world" market is exactly that - a "world" market. Our economy and job market will and is adjusting, but it doesn't happen over night or over a decade - it takes a generation.

Blaming Unions and labor laws is essentially blaming yourself... it really doesn't make sense - especially when what happened w/ our labor movement 100 years ago is gaining traction in China now. A company blaming it's workforce for moving production overseas is self defeating and nothing more than b/s. Not to mention that buying power of the middle class is cut by a fair % every time one of these companies decides to take an easy way out of a budget crunch.

Why do you think the next "big" market is China? It's not because the people are making .05 on the dollar anymore. They have major buying power now, MAJOR. 20 years ago, Japan's economy was 20 times larger than China's - today China is larger than Japan.

China's government regulates their industry and investment. They also subsidize industry. So, in that case - I guess government involvement works... It seems to be more of a case w/ people that don't believe in government WORKING in government, here in the US... plus a huge lack of global economic understanding w/ the average citizen and tons of mis-information perpetrated by special interests.

You look at places like Germany and Sweden where "regulation" is the national moto - they are doing just fine... I believe an excuse like "regulation" is really just business speak for "bad management" and "greed".

Don't blame China and our Government for bad business practices of private US companies.

"Made in USA" has major value - it's too bad so many companies decided to sell it at a cut rate price for short term gains over the last 20 years. The moto will also be the basic for our future industrial manufacturing resurgence - the world demands it, believe it or not.

We also forget that the US worker is the MOST productive worker in the world, also the most skilled in many instances - The productivity output of the average worker pretty much offsets any wage difference between US and China.

 

[LEVE]

but in turn not passing those cost savings to the consumer.

That's not always true. They also maximize the profits by NOT passing on the savings to the consumer.

 

[american lockpicker]

That's not always true. They also maximize the profits by NOT passing on the savings to the consumer.

Companies only sell or make goods in china to make huge profits. A while back I priced tools from there and 32 screwdrivers is a little over $1. Also as prices are getting higher there production is moving elsewhere.

 

[NY Old Guy]

The funny thing is everything that's made in China has a name to make it sound like it's made in the US like "Pittsburgh" or "U.S. General". Maybe they should call it "Guangzhou" or "Hunan Province General", haha. Seriously though workers make maybe $10 a day in China and $10 + an hour in the US. So the environmental issues are secondary, it's the cost of "unskilled" labor that drives production overseas. Eventually all unskilled labor will be automated anyway and then they'll move production back to the US.

 

[AWD Diesel Dude]

China recently surpassed the U.S. as the leading energy consumer in the world. This has major consequences in terms of where money is invested, a.k.a. the "kickbacks" the U.S. gets from the oil and energy companies may travel to China. Then cost of the electricity you use and the cost of the gas you put in your car rises even more.

China is also investing heavily in Nuclear power. Kinda of reminds me of Russia back in the day. Does anyone remember a little incident in Chernobyl? At least 70% of the nuclear fuel still remains in the damaged reactor, and the best we can do is try to encapsulate it and control the damage. Meanwhile the nuclear waste threatens to enter the water level and should the reactor ever become any more unstable it threatens the European continent as a whole. I challenge anyone to research Chernobyl beyond the standard Wikipedia search, and read the opinions of the scientists that continue to monitor the situation at the risk of their own lives, due to the health concerns associated with exposure to the site.

All that from a country that was similar to China in their stance of production before safety and where the government controls and regulates the decisions made in terms of risk assessment.

 

[old salvage]

Yes, won't it be wonderful that when we are all regulated out of jobs, houses, cars, etc, that we will have clean air to breath...We will not have any food, but we will have nice clean air, up untill we starve...Then the Chinese will be able to move in and take our country and they will enjoy the clean air that we left them...

Agreed, clean air *****.

 

[TAMPAGT07]

Agreed, clean air *****.

No it doesn't ****, but by having clean air there are consequences, we need to find a balance...

 

[bagsanthony]

it just just doesn't make any sense... when u think of steel u don't think of china.... their POS steel will never stand up to that of America's or Germany...so why would u ever buy tools from them? It's analogous to comparing homegrown vegetables from a ****** temperate climate, over a nice warmer weather climate.... no matter how hard the temperate climate tries, at the end of the day, the country that possesses the natural materials/know-how will always win!

 

[Az Scooter]

Funny thing is, years ago, people used to say that there was no way that Japanese steel would stand up to American steel. Now, Japan produces some of the highest quality steel in the world. Their economy *****,and has for a couple of decades, but that is okay, because people are trying to model ours after theirs.

 

[Nosferatu]

Companies moving production to China has absolutely nothing to do with clean air or safety. Dirty air from any continent goes into the same atmosphere we all use.

It has everything to do with increasing profits. The Chinese can work cheaper and they will provide whatever quality the company sourcing the parts wants. The problem really isn't with anything in China, it's with people wearing white shirts who don't give two shits about the product they are putting out, only the almighty dollar they reap from it.

As an IT guy, I've lost 2 jobs because the position has been outsourced to India. It's the same thing, they can do it cheaper.

 

[Nosferatu]

Funny thing is, years ago, people used to say that there was no way that Japanese steel would stand up to American steel. Now, Japan produces some of the highest quality steel in the world. Their economy *****,and has for a couple of decades, but that is okay, because people are trying to model ours after theirs.

That's the first time I've heard that one. The Japanese have been folding steel for centuries and have always made some of the top notch steels. Where do you think the Germans and Americans learned it from?

 

[bagsanthony]

That's the first time I've heard that one. The Japanese have been folding steel for centuries and have always made some of the top notch steels. Where do you think the Germans and Americans learned it from?

BS! Germany has always been an industrial powerhouse, featuring superior quality made goods.... Never say that there steel production was derived from Japan... total BS... Their contributions to science and technology have been unbelievable....

 

[kc-steve]

I'll try not to get into Ricardian Trade Theory too deep. But Uncle Joe, you are forgetting about Japan's fall from grace in the 1990's, and they are only recovering from in recent years.

Trade theory says that we all benefit from advantages of the best producers and we all then become better consumers. However, if a single country is continually exporting goods, as Japan did, eventually their local economy suffers badly when economic contractions occur. They have little or no local trade between local buyers and sellers. The prices of their goods are too expensive for them to purchase locally. On the other hand, we cannot continually import goods without suffering locally as well. And the examples are given by many people here in the above posts.

Ricardo's theory is that we should work together with the Chinese to encourage the Chinese people to become consumers of our own products. I just don't see our current political administration doing that anytime soon. So the solution will take place without our guidance and expertise in the form of trade imbalance and hard times until the economy corrects itself.

And the economic playing field should be level when it comes to government regulations concerning "clean air" etc., but here again, our political leaders are not pushing that either.

Steve

 

[stopdroplol]

You guys are looking at this all wrong. The issue has to do with the nature of corporations. If we took away their involvement in our government and began setting some real regulations then we'd start to see a change. Until then their just gonna keep going with the lowest bidder regardless of the consequences.

You guys are generalizing China way too much. They are just as capable as producing items on par with anyone else. US, China, Europe, Japan. It's all the same. Steel is no secret, it's been around for a very long time. The most complicated tool consist of what? A ratchet? A clutch? Again..been around a very long time. The issue is their being told to produce that quality by American interests.

As for the misinformation. 1) America is still the worlds largest industrial power, something like 20% of all items in the world are USA. That's 1/5 of all economic goods(this includes services) come from the USA. China only seems so big because it's where our consumer products come from. They're not so big anywhere else.

2) China is far more dependent on us they we are of them. Above everything else USA is the richest country in the world, by far. Our GDP is on par with the entire EU, some stats put us higher. But what's important is we hold about 1/3 of the entire global wealth. No matter what happens, we will always be able to buy something from anyone. The debt we owe China is not so important because it's not public debt. We could just print the money and pay them tomorrow. However the debt gives the US some strategic advantages in controlling inflation, the borrowing power of the dollar and overall desire in world markets, and China's growing dependence on the US.

3) As China becomes more and more a superpower they will have to adopt better standards for their environment and people. Once this happens they will lose their low cost advantage. This happened with Japan in the late 80's. For China to ever become a superpower they must be able to sell their own goods at home (they can't be totally dependent on exports). As is right now China is nowhere near close to that goal.

My guess is China will eventually hit a wall in becoming a superpower and go through some social reforms. At this time though the Corporations will just look to a less industrialized nation to take over productions. Probably in South America.

 

[kc-steve]

You guys are looking at this all wrong. The issue has to do with the nature of corporations. If we took away their involvement in our government and began setting some real regulations then we'd start to see a change. Until then their just gonna keep going with the lowest bidder regardless of the consequences. . . .

If I read you correctly, it depends upon WHAT regulations you are referring to, but governmental regulations are part of the problem, not the solution.

Steve

 

[stopdroplol]

If I read you correctly, it depends upon WHAT regulations you are referring to, but governmental regulations are part of the problem, not the solution.

Steve

I don't see how you can say that. Our government policies are a joke and a shame. I'm sure Thomas Jefferson would be rolling in his grave if you suggested the idea of lobbyists to him.

 

[Theloniousmonk]

I don't see how you can say that. Our government policies are a joke and a shame. I'm sure Thomas Jefferson would be rolling in his grave if you suggested the idea of lobbyists to him.

that's not government... that's money.

 

[stopdroplol]

BS! Germany has always been an industrial powerhouse, featuring superior quality made goods.... Never say that there steel production was derived from Japan... total BS... Their contributions to science and technology have been unbelievable....

Japan was making steel before Europe even knew of it's existence, and Germany wouldn't exist for centuries.. Before the Bessemer process (an English discovery) their really was no steel in Europe. If there was it almost certainly came from the middle east (Damascus Steel).

 

[kc-steve]

I don't see how you can say that. Our government policies are a joke and a shame. I'm sure Thomas Jefferson would be rolling in his grave if you suggested the idea of lobbyists to him.

Who suggested lobbyists? I'm assuming from your info that you are in California. CA is a prime example of how government regulations have nearly destroyed your local economy.

Steve

 

[stopdroplol]

that's not government... that's money.

Corporations paying elected officials to set policy is not part of government? Don't be naive. It's remarkably cheap to buy our government.

 

[Theloniousmonk]

Corporations paying elected officials to set policy is not part of government? Don't be naive. It's remarkably cheap to buy our government.

Thus, that is money, not government.

 

[Techniker]

No offense guys, but the idea of labor rates and environmental concerns are about a year or two out of date... wages have been rising drastically in china, they are juggling inflation right now... the new generation of professional workers is not putting up w/ substandard 3rd world working conditions, nor are they putting up with obscene air quality, etc... Chinese government understands and is adjusting to meet the wants/needs of their public - new environmental laws have taken effect and tougher standards s/b in place w/n a year... India/China labor rates are on par w/ US labor rates in terms of economic worth - essentially $3 hr in India ='s $15 an hour in the US... I'm just saying, a "world" market is exactly that - a "world" market. Our economy and job market will and is adjusting, but it doesn't happen over night or over a decade - it takes a generation.

"No offense" but, that's not out of date and your argument does not make logical economic sense. $3 is less than $15, or more importantly it's less than $7.25 + price of shipping. Also, people in China aren't making anywhere near $3. Their labor wages are lower than in the US and their raw materials and land (for building a factory on) are cheaper. All that matters is that their variable costs and their fixed costs are lower than in the US.

The logical flaw is that relative economic worth between the US and China are relevant. I don't care if $0.15 is the equivalent of $15 million in China- it makes no difference whatsoever. What matters is that $0.15 is less than $7.25.

A company determines its output by attempting to maximize profit. It does so by finding out where its marginal costs (determined by its marginal variable cost) and its marginal revenue meet. In China and India, the marginal cost is much much lower than the marginal cost for the same product in the US. That means they can produce a heck of a lot more of a product before the marginal cost equals the marginal revenue which means a much larger revenue for the company.

As for your statement that labor unions do not kill companies...well, I guess someone has never been to Detroit.

-Techniker

 

[Butters]

You guys are generalizing China way too much. They are just as capable as producing items on par with anyone else. US, China, Europe, Japan. It's all the same. Steel is no secret, it's been around for a very long time. The most complicated tool consist of what? A ratchet? A clutch? Again..been around a very long time. The issue is their being told to produce that quality by American interests.

As for the misinformation. 1) America is still the worlds largest industrial power, something like 20% of all items in the world are USA. That's 1/5 of all economic goods(this includes services) come from the USA. China only seems so big because it's where our consumer products come from. They're not so big anywhere else.

You bring up some very valid points SDL. But I take issue with some of your stats.

America may produce 20% of "economic goods", but that isn't the same as producing 20% of the world's goods. A banker may loan money and charge interest (profit), thus making money (economic good). But he isn't actually making anything tangible. That's the issue I have - our output is skewed too heavily toward "economic goods" and not tangible goods. We get our tangible goods elsewhere and in too large a part from a single source - China. Heck, even produce is getting imported now!?! We do this because jobs that produce "economic goods" tend to pay more (white collar) and that allows us to buy more **** and keeps everybody happy. But when our supply of **** dries up for whatever reason - especially when it comes from a single source - we have big problems. Not a big deal if we lose Harbor Freight when there are US toolmakers there to replace it. But when those jobs go elsewhere, where do we buy tools or replacement parts or clothing? If you can get items, the inflation would be incredible. Call it insurance, but we need to diversify where we import from and maintain some level of domestic production for core items.

I wholeheartedly agree that China can and will produce products on par with anybody whenever they choose (like Japan did and Korea does).

But I also disagree with the impact an economic downturn would have on China. Substantial? Yes. But they are a third world country with a far less demanding populace. They are also in a better position to be self sufficient in terms of having resources for its population and controlling where those resources go. If push came to shove, the Chinese population would deal better with the downturn because they have less to lose.

 

[bagsanthony]

Japan was making steel before Europe even knew of it's existence, and Germany wouldn't exist for centuries.. Before the Bessemer process (an English discovery) their really was no steel in Europe. If there was it almost certainly came from the middle east (Damascus Steel).

oh really.... well its like how the chinese invented noodles, but the italians perfected them and made it an art.... and im pretty sure germany has produced some of the greatest scientists and engineers who have ever lived (Karl Benz, Gottlieb Daimler, Otto, Diesel,Heisenberg, Werner von Braun, etc. etc.) Japan is a newly developed industrial country who has enjoyed recent success.... Germany and the US all the way!

 

[redman43]

I think that manufacturers are aware that sending jobs overseas is bad public opinion, in any industry. But I beleive that their balls are being held in a vice due to the stockholders (many of which are on the Board of Directors that are making the decisions - hello, conflict of interest anyone) continually wanting increased profits every period. They say "great, profits rose 25% this year, good job. Next year, make it 30%. Do it or you lose your seat on the Board of Directors. Have a nice day."

Costs and prices aren't increasing at the same rate as what the stockholders want for the profit increases, so the only real options to maintain that desired profit level are to raise prices or lower costs. Raising prices doesn't work because you risk chaos and losing all sales. Material is relatively cheap and can't drop a whole lot as it is, so to lower costs the only significant thing left is labor. It is so ******* cheap in China/Taiwan/India/Philipines/etc that it becomes a no brainer.

About the only way to bring jobs back here is to make it expensive as hell to ship the products back to the US (taxes, tarriffs, ect). Make it more enticing ($$$$$) to produce it here at relatively the same cost and I can almost guarantee that the jobs and production will come back.

As for the OP, I agree. Everything is cyclical. It might take another decade or two, but eventually the quality will get there for many of the current sub-par products. That, or those other countries will end up pulling their collective heads out of their collective asses and realize that the current model they employ doesn't work and will start to introduce regulations and legislation that make it less financially reasonable for US companies to have products manufactured there.

 

[american lockpicker]

That's the first time I've heard that one. The Japanese have been folding steel for centuries and have always made some of the top notch steels. Where do you think the Germans and Americans learned it from?

I agree, Japan only turned out **** from 1945-1990s.