Chinese Tools, what happens when.....

[stopdroplol]

Thus, that is money, not government.

What do you mean? If it affects policy then it must be a part of government. I don't think it would be controversial to suggest we have a 4 part government system now, Judicial, Executive, Congressional, and lobbyists. We need to get rid of this idea that corporations should be able to influence delegates, especially when it involves the exchange of money.

Who suggested lobbyists? I'm assuming from your info that you are in California. CA is a prime example of how government regulations have nearly destroyed your local economy.

Steve

I was suggesting lobbyists in my original posts, although I definitely support regulations in other aspects of government as well. And while I agree California is a mess (a big mess) I don't blame lack of regulation for it.

You bring up some very valid points SDL. But I take issue with some of your stats.

America may produce 20% of "economic goods", but that isn't the same as producing 20% of the world's goods. A banker may loan money and charge interest (profit), thus making money (economic good). But he isn't actually making anything tangible. That's the issue I have - our output is skewed too heavily toward "economic goods" and not tangible goods. We get our tangible goods elsewhere and in too large a part from a single source - China. Heck, even produce is getting imported now!?! We do this because jobs that produce "economic goods" tend to pay more (white collar) and that allows us to buy more **** and keeps everybody happy. But when our supply of **** dries up for whatever reason - especially when it comes from a single source - we have big problems. Not a big deal if we lose Harbor Freight when there are US toolmakers there to replace it. But when those jobs go elsewhere, where do we buy tools or replacement parts or clothing? If you can get items, the inflation would be incredible. Call it insurance, but we need to diversify where we import from and maintain some level of domestic production for core items.

But I also disagree with the impact an economic downturn would have on China. Substantial? Yes. But they are a third world country with a far less demanding populace. They are also in a better position to be self sufficient in terms of having resources for its population and controlling where those resources go. If push came to shove, the Chinese population would deal better with the downturn because they have less to lose.

I specifically said that number included services, wasn't trying to hide that. But it doesn't really matter as I said in my 3rd point. We have so much wealth it's almost disgusting. We can buy whatever we need. If China decides to stop selling to us (hypothetical) we have the means to get it from anywhere else.

And though we do get the largest share of our products from China but that's not to say we don't trade with anyone else. The government does take into account national security risks. And considering the military requires all their tools be made in the USA i'd say they got that bit covered.

I never mentioned anything about an economic downturn. I was talking about reforming their state run society, which by western standards is very oppressive. As communications are grow we'll start to see more and more states clamoring for reform. It's happening right now in the Middle East. This is all just speculation but I don't believe China can manage the transition to a superpower, which requires the elevation of their social order and standards of living, while at the same time retaining their iron fist rule. The whole North and South / Urban, Rural dilemma their facing just exacerbates the issue.

oh really.... well its like how the chinese invented noodles, but the italians perfected them and made it an art.... and im pretty sure germany has produced some of the greatest scientists and engineers who have ever lived (Karl Benz, Gottlieb Daimler, Otto, Diesel,Heisenberg, Werner von Braun, etc. etc.) Japan is a newly developed industrial country who has enjoyed recent success.... Germany and the US all the way!

Germany has discovered many great things, but steel wasn't one of them. I think historically Japan has been a very industrious country as well. Certainly today they're among the top.

 

[Butters]

I didn't think you were misleading in any way - my apologies if I sounded extra "douchey" today. I just wanted to clarify the number because, to me, that is the big problem with big business and big politics.

If stock price goes up, big business is happy even if they are driving the company into the ground and producing a worthless product.

If wages go up, Washington is happy because voters are happy. It doesn't matter that it comes at the expense of our manufacturing base or our food production centers or that these new high paying jobs are simply paper pushers and their existence will be moot in a serious economic crisis.

 

[Busted Bolts]

I feel it is corporate greed. They don't want to pay the American worker wages, when they can set the manufacturing standards and have it made by some one else over seas. One of the reasons that we are the richest nation is because of American companies making Billions from some good name brands or services wether it be public, private, industrial, or governmental. Now more than ever, have well rooted components being made at a fraction of the cost. This is why CEO's get paid large sums of money and large bonuses even when they might lay off 10% of their work force. They don't care the blue collar man or woman is unemployed, they have share holders to satisfy, When times are good things can fly under the radar, due to low unemployment, but when they are tight like now its all about the money not the worker. Even in the banking, and mortgage industry, if we didn't have all that preditory lending going on, would there be that many forecloseures? I know it can be viewed several ways, but alot of this resession could have been avoided if big companies werent lining their pockets knowing the end of the plank is near. It all has to change. Cost of goods, services, regulations, labor rates, fees, insurances and more would have to be level across the board to give predicabilty. How can a worker have his hours cut, health insurance go up, taxes go up, gas go up, heating fuel go up, food go up and every thing that has to do with oil go up and expect to save or have the same livelyhood when they had the hours to pay for it. This is the sliding scale that so many are dealing with now. Coorporate Greed. Sorry for the rant

 

[catfish]

 

[american lockpicker]

He is a capitalist he doesn't care about made in USA. If you notice he is planning on running for president so he is telling people what they want to hear.

 

[bczygan]

Here are the trends I see happening.
Asian products continue to improve and US businesses can't compete with US made goods.
Less and less made in US products.
High end Asian products start to command higher prices than comparable US products.
US currency continues to fall in value.
Balance of trade continues to get more out of balance.
Remaining US products priced out of reach.
High end Asian products priced out of reach.
US becomes even more a dumping ground for cheap products from around the world.
US is second class nation.
21st century is the Chinese century.
They combine a vast labor force with strong centralized government, rapid industrialization, big high tech, growing free market trade and a strong sense of nationalism. They are a nation on the make, like we were at the start of the last century, not a nation back on it's heels like we are today.
Not saying I like or dislike it. Just see it coming.

Bill in Detroit
The former "Arsenal of Democracy"

 

[bagsanthony]

What do you mean? If it affects policy then it must be a part of government. I don't think it would be controversial to suggest we have a 4 part government system now, Judicial, Executive, Congressional, and lobbyists. We need to get rid of this idea that corporations should be able to influence delegates, especially when it involves the exchange of money.



I was suggesting lobbyists in my original posts, although I definitely support regulations in other aspects of government as well. And while I agree California is a mess (a big mess) I don't blame lack of regulation for it.



I specifically said that number included services, wasn't trying to hide that. But it doesn't really matter as I said in my 3rd point. We have so much wealth it's almost disgusting. We can buy whatever we need. If China decides to stop selling to us (hypothetical) we have the means to get it from anywhere else.

And though we do get the largest share of our products from China but that's not to say we don't trade with anyone else. The government does take into account national security risks. And considering the military requires all their tools be made in the USA i'd say they got that bit covered.

I never mentioned anything about an economic downturn. I was talking about reforming their state run society, which by western standards is very oppressive. As communications are grow we'll start to see more and more states clamoring for reform. It's happening right now in the Middle East. This is all just speculation but I don't believe China can manage the transition to a superpower, which requires the elevation of their social order and standards of living, while at the same time retaining their iron fist rule. The whole North and South / Urban, Rural dilemma their facing just exacerbates the issue.



Germany has discovered many great things, but steel wasn't one of them. I think historically Japan has been a very industrious country as well. Certainly today they're among the top.

If u read my post more carefully u would see that i didn't say they invented steel... they used the invention of steel to their advantage and have used it in the production of some of the greatest tools we have ever seen oh and last time i checked german cars can brake unlike japanese ones lmfao !!!!!!!

 

[cglasgow]

@BustedBolts
You're right -- the only purpose of a corporation is to make money for the owners. It's not about customers, it's not about employees, it's only about shareholder value and profit. And that's not just greed -- they're legally required to maximise shareholder returns. Anything else is a breach of fiduciary duty. That's both good and bad -- if you own any mutual funds at all (which many people do in 401ks), then you're very likely a shareholder so that's good for you. As investors, it's what we demand. If you also happen to be a displaced worker, it's obviously bad for you and your position as a shareholder is in direct conflict with your position as an employee.

@bczygan
China has been artificially propping up our currency to keep theirs artificially low. They're buying dollars and selling yuan to maintain the exchange rate they desire. That's can't go on forever, though, and eventually they'll have to let the yuan rise. In fact, they're starting to do that a tiny bit already. That's the biggest favor they can do us! As the dollar falls and the yuan rises, Chinese goods get more expensive for us relative to US goods, and so the profitability of outsourcing to China becomes less. The more that happens, the more domestic production (hopefully) we'll see. US currency falling in value helps our trade balance!

 

[Gregg33]

Labor unions, corporations and the government (over regulation especially) are all at fault for the loss of American and Canadian manufacturing jobs and the influx of Chinese and other low wage produced foreign goods. But in the end it comes down to you the consumer. Talk with your wallet. If a majority of people refused to buy offshore goods companies wouldn't import them and stores wouldn't sell them. It's as simple as that. Where and how you spend your money makes a statement.

 

[catfish]

He is a capitalist he doesn't care about made in USA. If you notice he is planning on running for president so he is telling people what they want to hear.

What other candidates are talking about tarriffs?

 

[cnc-me]

I feel it is corporate greed. They don't want to pay the American worker wages, when they can set the manufacturing standards and have it made by some one else over seas. One of the reasons that we are the richest nation is because of American companies making Billions from some good name brands or services wether it be public, private, industrial, or governmental. Now more than ever, have well rooted components being made at a fraction of the cost. This is why CEO's get paid large sums of money and large bonuses even when they might lay off 10% of their work force. They don't care the blue collar man or woman is unemployed, they have share holders to satisfy, When times are good things can fly under the radar, due to low unemployment, but when they are tight like now its all about the money not the worker. Even in the banking, and mortgage industry, if we didn't have all that preditory lending going on, would there be that many forecloseures? I know it can be viewed several ways, but alot of this resession could have been avoided if big companies werent lining their pockets knowing the end of the plank is near. It all has to change. Cost of goods, services, regulations, labor rates, fees, insurances and more would have to be level across the board to give predicabilty. How can a worker have his hours cut, health insurance go up, taxes go up, gas go up, heating fuel go up, food go up and every thing that has to do with oil go up and expect to save or have the same livelyhood when they had the hours to pay for it. This is the sliding scale that so many are dealing with now. Coorporate Greed. Sorry for the rant

Exactly, could not of said it better than that. .
CEO's and corporations are selling this country out.
They should be tried for treason.

 

[sonnyboy]

I'm not an expert on American history, and correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the US Federal Gov't largely supported by tariff income until less than 100 years ago?? I realize that if they do that again, we would no longer be able to buy a DVD player for under $50, and it would probably cost more like $500. At the same time, we would also be buying less "junk" we don't need and when something breaks, we would be willing to pay to fix it rather than throw it away. I see the US winning three ways with that....

1. Virtually eliminate income taxes.

2. Provide more manufacturing jobs.

3. Provide more opportunities for entrepaneuership (sp?) in the service industries.

Unfortunately, that would make about a billion Chinese really pissed at us, and the entire American workforce would have to quit and join the army.

 

[Flange]

The economic principle,when I last studied macro-economics, is that on the whole, import tarrifs hurt the country that levies them as well as the foreign producers.

The reduced imports are good for the domestic industries whose sales go up but the problem is that prices rise also. OK so the increased production and price causes domestic producers to hire more workers which causes consumer spending to rise. Government revenues also rise.

But, now the price of the goods with the tariff has increased, the consumer is forced to either buy less of this or less of some thing else.

Since consumers are purchasing less, domestic producers in other industries are selling less, causing a decline in the economy.

This is NOT my opinion but the opinion of economists the world over. OK so most countries have import tarrifs on certain goods but due to the above economic impact, it is not something that should be applied to everything you import as it will hurt you more than it benefits you.

Quite often, import duties are imposed for political reasons rather than economic ones.

 

[demographic]

One problem with promoting a global free market to sell things in other countries is that eventually the standard of living in the countries that do most of the production rises and so the cost of manufacture,
Then the global free market moves production to somewhere cheaper and it bites you on the ****.

There is no reason at all why China, India, wherever can't produce as good products as any other country, despite many of us wishing otherwise.

 

[sheslostcontrol]

What happens when they concentrate on quality and can still keep their cost low because of their low labor costs?

American workers will continue being screwed like they are today.

But don't you worry, Gheitner said that China is not a currency manipulator so everything will turn out just fine.

 

[sheslostcontrol]

He is a capitalist he doesn't care about made in USA. If you notice he is planning on running for president so he is telling people what they want to hear.

This aptly describes every Democrat and Republican in washington, DC if you ask me. Bunch of stuffed suits telling everyone what they think they want to hear.

 

[sonnyboy]

The economic principle,when I last studied macro-economics, is that on the whole, import tarrifs hurt the country that levies them as well as the foreign producers.



This is NOT my opinion but the opinion of economists the world over. ................ it is not something that should be applied to everything you import as it will hurt you more than it benefits you.

Are these the same econimists that said "free trade" would be good for the American economy, and create jobs for the American worker? Looks like that was right on the money.......

 

[Flange]

Are these the same econimists that said "free trade" would be good for the American economy, and create jobs for the American worker? Looks like that was right on the money.....

I am not totally up to speed with who said what but severe protectionism would hurt the domestic economy worse.

 

[King Bojack]

I am not totally up to speed with who said what but severe protectionism would hurt the domestic economy worse.

Severe protectionism helped the Great Depression go from a simple recession to full blown depression and a bad one at that that only rampant government spending on WWII fixed. Sadly we seem to want the same thing in modern times.

BTW, companies end up with the unions their management deserves. Well run companies have no reason to fear unions. Industries also end up with the regulations that management deserves (for the most part).

China is not a significant threat to America at this time. Anything they intentionally did us would affect them like 7 fold or something.

 

[yellowgt1vert]

One problem with promoting a global free market to sell things in other countries is that eventually the standard of living in the countries that do most of the production rises and so the cost of manufacture,
Then the global free market moves production to somewhere cheaper and it bites you on the ****.

There is no reason at all why China, India, wherever can't produce as good products as any other country, despite many of us wishing otherwise.

What do you think the Europeans were saying as the U.S. started producing more and more of the world's goods? China is already seeing wages start to rise-granted they've got a long way to go-but they will eventually be bemoaning their loss of production too...

Consumers obviously are pushing for cheaper, well-made goods as they are buying them. It isn't something they are forced to do or misled into buying as products are labeled.

I love the line from Back to the Future where "Doc" tells Marty that "only junk comes from Japan"... One day I'm sure we'll look back on our sayings about China in much the same way.

A good example is the musical instrument market. Until the last few years, China was turning out "toy" quality musical instruments. Today, many of the instruments coming out of China are rivals in quality to many domestic products.

I'm not slamming Made in America, I'm just speaking about the world we are in. Is it "great" that manufacturing is leaving the U.S.? I don't think so. Is this usually what happens in open markets? Yes.

 

[Aberdale]

I don't fault corporations for trying to maximize profit. It's what they do. I also understand why workers get ticked off when they're jobs are terminated because the corporation has decided to move production where it is more efficient.

When there is high unemployment, some of those unemployed get off their a$$e$ and start a new company to compete with their former employer, because they have the knowledge and the confidence they can do it better. Hence, a new U.S. company is formed, and provides jobs that didn't exist before.

It's happened in the past. It will happen in the future. The ones that get hurt are the ones that don't know how to generate an income without someone else giving them a job.

I've been there. I lost my job to outsourcing, so I started my own company. I hired 15 employees, rented office space, and bought quite a bit of equipment, thus stimulating the economy. I made some money, and provided good wages for my employees. It lasted about 15 years, when I decided I didn't want to work that hard anymore.

For me, I like quality products, especially tools. I really could care less where they're made, as long as they are durable, look good, and get the job done. I don't worry about COO, and in the long run it will strengthen, not hurt, our economy. We have developed a consumerist society that has been overpaid for a long time, and it will be painful to unwind. We all have a sense of entitlement because "the way things have always been" should continue.

Our memories are short. In the 1920s, the economy in the USA was just like China today. Lots of poor farmers and people willing to work in factories for pennies a day. The US was the low cost producer. Workers skills improved, as did compensation. It only made sense to make things in the US. Products were sourced from Europe to the US. European workers lost their jobs.

But things change. Now we are no longer competitive in some production methods. Those manufacturing jobs are going somewhere where they are more competitive. Will those jobs ever come back? Maybe. But something has to change to enable that to happen. Lower wages here. Higher wages over there. Fuel costs get too high to ship products cost effectively. Civil unrest. Wars. Automation.

But "buying only American made" will not do it. There is not enough solidarity by the American consumer to force it to happen.

 

[matthew]

I don't think the assumptions that current trends will continue indefinitely will be correct. Demographically and economically China is changing - inflation within China, changes to the makeup of the workforce, and rising internal demand will have a lot to do with what happens.

Here's another question - is the problem today that Americans aren't buying enough US products, or is it that they aren't selling enough to the rest of the world??? There's a world of opportunity out there, and honestly the US seems to focus heavily on internal markets...

 

[Fedwrench]

We are just screwed.
However, in answer to your original question look at the auto industry. Japanese and later Korean auto manufacturers have made a killing here.
GM sells many more Buicks in China than in the US but, they are Chinese manufactured cars using Chinese workers and Chinese made sub assemblies.
We are the only country that buys more foriegn made **** than we do domestically made stuff.
Another issue is that with good paying jobs evaporating, we'll only be able to afford cheap imported ****. Yeap, we're screwed.

 

[demographic]

What do you think the Europeans were saying as the U.S. started producing more and more of the world's goods?

My point exactly.

 

[american lockpicker]

What other candidates are talking about tarriffs?

None AFAIK but he is the last person we(Americans) need in the white house.

I'm not an expert on American history, and correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the US Federal Gov't largely supported by tariff income until less than 100 years ago?? I realize that if they do that again, we would no longer be able to buy a DVD player for under $50, and it would probably cost more like $500. At the same time, we would also be buying less "junk" we don't need and when something breaks, we would be willing to pay to fix it rather than throw it away. I see the US winning three ways with that....

1. Virtually eliminate income taxes.

2. Provide more manufacturing jobs.

3. Provide more opportunities for entrepaneuership (sp?) in the service industries.

Unfortunately, that would make about a billion Chinese really pissed at us, and the entire American workforce would have to quit and join the army.

Thats what we need.

This aptly describes every Democrat and Republican in washington, DC if you ask me. Bunch of stuffed suits telling everyone what they think they want to hear.

True.

I am not totally up to speed with who said what but severe protectionism would hurt the domestic economy worse.

I don't know. If we produced everything we use here it could only do good. Would people do with less? Yes but we don't need all the cheap **** we have now.

Another issue is that with good paying jobs evaporating, we'll only be able to afford cheap imported ****. Yeap, we're screwed.

This worries me.

 

[poprockcrusher]

oh you are just hf8ter

 

[stopdroplol]

What other candidates are talking about tarriffs?

There's actually a lot of politicians who support tariffs with China. Probably like half of them support it in some form. Maybe 10-20% support full tariffs on everything. Names off the top of my head. Schumer, Lindsay Graham, Rand Paul. One of Pelosi's last act as Speaker of the House was to pass a bill that allowed more freedom to the president in creating Tariffs with China. It passed with a huge majority, can't seem to find it though.

I don't support tariffs on China to the extent Congress, does. I don't think the America people do either. But the only thing that's actually stopped us from doing it is the WTO, and pretty much every financial expert in the world.

 

[Aberdale]

Tariffs typically result in retaliatory tariffs. We put import tariffs on consumer products, they put tariffs on food (wheat, corn, . . . etc.)

A tariff on Chinese tools would raise the prices on imported tools from China. But it would likely end up increasing prices on domestic tools as well, because domestic manufacturers could then make more profit under the tariff umbrella. It also reduces the need for domestic manufacturers to maintain their competitiveness, so they get less efficient, which really defeats the purpose.

So in both cases, consumers lose.

 

[mrchuck]

Here is my take on the subject: These past 6 months, I have had several tools fail on me. Both were tool truck items, and I had a hell of a time getting the tools replaced.
I also had several tools failed that came from the "big box" stores.
I took these tools back, went up to the customer service desk with my broken tool and the new one i took off the peg board, and the exchange was Instant!
No mail costs, phine costs, and did it on a SUNDAY!!!
Therefore, it is my belief that the big stores like Sears, Home Depot, Lowe's, and sure there are others,, that will take totally over the tool selling and supplying trade.
So, what will the truck dealers sell? Diagnostic code readers, tune-up electronics,a/c re-fill machines, etc, where an explanation and hands on use is wanted.
Also, all the parts supply companies have their own service trucks that call upon the garages, such as Autozone, O'reilly's, Parts one, NAPA, etc, and others in my little town here. One call and a water pump is at your shop counter in 15 minutes!!!
So, "Tool Trucks" had a run at it for a long time, but as the past posts here stated so correctly, the Asian made parts will soon be as good as any tools ever made here in the good old USA. May be another 5 to 10 years, but it is coming.
I have all the USA tools that I will ever need at hand, so it really isn't my dogfight.