Choosing a welder?

[Chaznsc]

Well, I take the last class this Saturday. See my thread here for details:

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=202962

Its been a positive experience, I have learned what I had hoped to, from theory to safety. Far from expert, I hope to just practice-practice-practice over the next several months. I have a Lincoln tombstone stick welder, but in all honesty, I found the MIG to be much more user friendly. I am able to make good welds with the MIG so its not that its "easy" but it just starts and stops easier for me.

So in considering a MIG I would love some input. Im not interested in anything like a HF welder, so I am focused on Lincoln, Hobart, etc. I will most likely opt for a gas setup, so thats a given also. I am perfectly happy with a 120v unit, so I dont see a need to jump into a 220v unit.

In comparing say, a Lincoln, there are two in my search radius:

1. K2185 - $323 @ Lowes - 1/8" thickness limit
2. K2480 - $524 @ Lowes - 3/16" thickness limit

My projects will include things like building a welding table, working on my trailer, maybe build a trailer, perhaps a grill-build, misc repairs of who knows what. I may weld aluminum, definitely steel. I will get a gas bottle.

So my question is the additional $200 for the heavier unit. With multiple passes, can I weld heavier steel with the smaller unit?

Since I am without specific amounts of experience, I wanted to poll the GJ users to get some input. And I am certainly open to considering other makes and models of a welder, just using the Lincoln as a starting point.

Thank you.

 

[paranoid56]

if you have 220v get a 220v welder. seeing that you want to work on a trailer the extra heat will help. also, for alu you will need a spool gun and much more heat, the 110v wont help much there. I started off with a 110v model and wile it was great, you can only go so thick. Check out some of the dual voltage ones from miller, they work on both 110 and 220. Also check out places like amazon to buy a welder or your local welding store.

 

[cdsvt]

I am not a pro, or anything remotely resembling an expert, but I can share some thoughts.

First of all, congratulations and good call on taking a class and for your attitude around practice (because that will make all the difference).

I've had good luck with a little 110v Lincoln SP125 MIG unit I bought years ago. It is good for steel from thin sheet metal to I think 3/16, if I recall correctly.

One feature I like about it is the rheostat for continuously adjustable amperage. A lot of the other low end units when I was buying had fixed positions. I like the ability to fine tune (you can hear when the arc is just right).

If you are going to do aluminum, you may want to buy something a little higher eng that has a spool gun as an option in the future. They offer aluminum setups (teflon sleeve) for the low end push MIGs like the little Lincolns, but they don't work so great because aluminum is so soft (imagine trying to push a thin rope down a conduit). The spool guns are nice since the aluminum doesn't have to go far.

Also, you'll need two bottles - one for your steel mix and one for your aluminum shielding gas. You can rent or buy - I bought mine since I use them so infrequently that renting was uneconomical. I get my gas and some of my consumables from a chain called Airgas. If you shop online you can often get better prices (I buy my tungstens and gas lenses for my inverter tig online, for example).

If you have a big budget, a Miller pulse MIG would be sweet for what you are doing. Bring your piggybank though - I priced one out at one point and the whole enchilada was almost $3K. Way too rich for my blood!

As much as I'd like a AC Tig or a Mig that can handle a spool, in terms of economics, I've found it pretty cheap to do my own steel work and hire out the aluminum work I rarely see around the house. Now if I were building an aluminum plate boat (why I was pricing out the Miller) that would be a different story.

Also, a parting thought - Mig makes it seem easy, but don't underestimate that arc setup you already have. I've seen old timers weld all kinds of stuff with the right electrodes. Plus you can get a lug/power-block to make a scratch start tig unit out of it which can do stainless...

 

[Chaznsc]

I am not a pro, or anything remotely resembling an expert, but I can share some thoughts.

First of all, congratulations and good call on taking a class and for your attitude around practice (because that will make all the difference).

I've had good luck with a little 110v Lincoln SP125 MIG unit I bought years ago. It is good for steel from thin sheet metal to I think 3/16, if I recall correctly.

One feature I like about it is the rheostat for continuously adjustable amperage. A lot of the other low end units when I was buying had fixed positions. I like the ability to fine tune (you can hear when the arc is just right).

If you are going to do aluminum, you may want to buy something a little higher eng that has a spool gun as an option in the future. They offer aluminum setups (teflon sleeve) for the low end push MIGs like the little Lincolns, but they don't work so great because aluminum is so soft (imagine trying to push a thin rope down a conduit). The spool guns are nice since the aluminum doesn't have to go far.

Also, you'll need two bottles - one for your steel mix and one for your aluminum shielding gas. You can rent or buy - I bought mine since I use them so infrequently that renting was uneconomical. I get my gas and some of my consumables from a chain called Airgas. If you shop online you can often get better prices (I buy my tungstens and gas lenses for my inverter tig online, for example).

If you have a big budget, a Miller pulse MIG would be sweet for what you are doing. Bring your piggybank though - I priced one out at one point and the whole enchilada was almost $3K. Way too rich for my blood!

As much as I'd like a AC Tig or a Mig that can handle a spool, in terms of economics, I've found it pretty cheap to do my own steel work and hire out the aluminum work I rarely see around the house. Now if I were building an aluminum plate boat (why I was pricing out the Miller) that would be a different story.

Also, a parting thought - Mig makes it seem easy, but don't underestimate that arc setup you already have. I've seen old timers weld all kinds of stuff with the right electrodes. Plus you can get a lug/power-block to make a scratch start tig unit out of it which can do stainless...

Very helpful insight.

I'm actually using a SP125 in class and its nice. Im not sure which of those two I mentioned it most closely mimics.

My ideas on aluminum are thoughts only. It seems aluminum may just be out of reach for now.

 

[yfzjim]

I just upgraded from a 110 volt miller to a 220 volt miller. Night and day difference even on thin metals. I wish I would have gotten the 220 unit from the start. I bought my 110 new from Cyberweld.com they had the best price and free shipping. I bought my new 220 unit used on Craigslist for a great deal. You definitely want gas. I believe miller has a 10% off deal right now also.

 

[KellyfromVA]

I recommend Miller, made in the USA and great support. Lincoln and Hobart are made in the same factory and uses plastic wire feed drive parts. Miller uses all metal drive parts.

 

[Lil'John]

I went with a Miller Passport that is 110V and 220V capable. This was an upgrade over the standard Miller 135.

I can definitely tell the difference between 110V and 220V.

Lincoln and Miller are basically equivalent for a given amp welder. Same type of construction.

I'm not sure of current but in the past Hobbart was basically a rebadged Miller with some plastic parts in place of metal(rollers come to mind)

 

[readhead]

Lincoln and Hobart are not built in the same factory. I have 17 Lincoln mig machines and they all have metal drive parts. Red, Blue or Brown, they all work pretty well. Beware of any machines from big box stores. Some don't carry the same warranty coverage. I have been a red guy for forty years because Lincoln has always concentrated on their commercial customers. Miller went after the retail market. Both are good machines and you will do fine either way.

 

[Falcon67]

Your use criteria points directly at a dual voltage unit. I'm working towards selling my Hobart 140 and getting a Hobart 210 MVP. The Hobart 140 is a great tool but the dual voltage unit would be 10x more useful. I can weld .120 wall mild steel tube (read - roll bar tube) with the 140 but it's at the limit of the device IMHO.

> I wish I would have gotten the 220 unit from the start.
X2 in spades here.

 

[readhead]

Without a doubt by 220 now. You will not regret it.

 

[Chitown_hillbilly]

I recommend Miller, made in the USA and great support. Lincoln and Hobart are made in the same factory and uses plastic wire feed drive parts. Miller uses all metal drive parts.

Miller owns Hobart, but I believe they are still manufactured in two different facilities.

 

[Zeke]

Don't get rid of the tombstone. Use it. Get good fresh rods. Jody on weldingtipsandtricks.com likes 7014. You can use 6013 too for more penetration.

 

[sberry]

For 200 more you get twice the machine when you get a 240 v unit. They will run 030 and give it a little punch.

One feature I like about it is the rheostat for continuously adjustable amperage. A lot of the other low end units when I was buying had fixed positions. I like the ability to fine tune (you can hear when the arc is just right).

The amperage is the wire speed, the other is the voltage. I actually prefer taps, sop much easier to go back and reset.

 

[erty67]

I recommend Miller, made in the USA and great support. Lincoln and Hobart are made in the same factory and uses plastic wire feed drive parts. Miller uses all metal drive parts.

hobart...

....and it's usa made

 

[K13]

As most have said get the bigger machine if you can and DO NOT buy a welder from a box store. Find a local welding supply store and go talk to them. They will be able to offer you sound advice on purchasing and more options and they will also be there after you have bought it if you have questions, need parts, etc. You will be luck to find someone who even knows what a welder is at Lowes/Home Depot let alone someone who can advise you on the workings of your machine.

 

[chrisa7164]

Don't waste your time or money at Lowes..go to a real welding supply..build a relationship with them..you are gonna have to for shielding gas and consumables anyway. I have the Miller 211 and love the fact that it's dual voltage.

 

[erty67]

If you like the SP125, check out the Hobart Handler 140. Made in the USA, metal feeds, and can be found for about $450. If your really budget minded, the Eastwood 135 mimics the SP and goes for $300. reviews seem good, although it's not a Lincoln.

 

[allanjs]

I have a Miller 211 auto-set MVP and love it. Runs on 110v or 220v. Way better than the 110v only models that I have used. Bought it through Cyberweld.com with free shipping and a Miller discount. Fully adjustable settings for heat and wire speed. No 1,2,etc. heat settings to deal with. Dial it in and go to town. Money well spent.

 

[Zeke]

Don't waste your time or money at Lowes..go to a real welding supply..build a relationship with them..you are gonna have to for shielding gas and consumables anyway. I have the Miller 211 and love the fact that it's dual voltage.

I go to Air Gas only because they tolerate a hobby guy. Praxair not so much. A couple of independents are a bit further away but they don't make me want to come back.

The point? If you don't have an account and order weekly, they could care less. But, that's SoCal. Maybe in your town.

 

[BD1]

I have a Miller 211 auto-set MVP and love it. Runs on 110v or 220v. Way better than the 110v only models that I have used. Bought it through Cyberweld.com with free shipping and a Miller discount. Fully adjustable settings for heat and wire speed. No 1,2,etc. heat settings to deal with. Dial it in and go to town. Money well spent.

Me too ! I agree on the 211. MILLER has a CURRENT REBATE IN PROGRESS. This machine will fulfill all needs.
Get a package price with a 125 / 150 size tank of 75 / 25 from local suppliers.
Every supplier has different policies on tanks. It will be money well spent. To me it seems the .030 wire is great on this machine. I use the Lincoln L 56 which I got at Home Depot .
Definitely keep the Lincoln. You may want to try tig with it. Then you'll be asking about a tig machine. It will only be a matter of time before you will add another to your collection.
If you were a 1,000miles closer you could come and play with mine.

 

[Zbrums]

I bought a hobart 140 and as soon as I got it out of the box I had buyers remorse and the wife told me to send it back and get the 210 mvp. So I did. I love it. It's a great machine that will do anything I would need.

 

[Norcal]

Miller owns Hobart, but I believe they are still manufactured in two different facilities.

Miller does not own Hobart, they both share the same owner, ITW

 

[brucer]

check out the Thermal Arc 181i mig/tig/stick with free auto darkening helmet, they are also dual voltage. They are priced around $800

I wouldnt waste my money on a 120volt mig welder..

 

[ATC]

I wouldnt waste my money on a 120volt mig welder..

Agreed! No way I'd ever own one, and I would never recommend one to any hobbyist that does anything more than sheetmetal work on cars.

My buddy just bought a Lincoln 140 from Lowes a few months ago. It will barely do 1/8" steel in one pass.

I bleed Blue though. Miller 180 Autoset and Syncrowave 200. If you can afford it...step up to the 220V units. They will still do thin stuff, and you won't kick yourself the first time you find a need to weld a piece of 1/4" together.

 

[cdsvt]

Agreed! No way I'd ever own one, and I would never recommend one to any hobbyist that does anything more than sheetmetal work on cars.

This is simply not true. The one I have has been used on 3/16 steel for a plow frame and it worked fine.

On the other hand, I'd agree that you'd be better off with a 220 setup. Comparing the two is comparing apples and oranges price wise though. I don't suspect most people buy a 120v unit because they comparing it to a top of the line 220v unit and somehow think it is better. My guess is that most people buy a 120v because it is a price point that they can tolerate for a hobby welder with a budget. Or maybe I should say that is why I did it.

Just my 2 cents, but if all someone can swing is for a 120v unit, they can still weld a lot of stuff very effectively. I wouldn't not skip getting a welder just because I didn't want to spend on a 220v unit.

 

[cdsvt]

check out the Thermal Arc 181i mig/tig/stick with free auto darkening helmet, they are also dual voltage. They are priced around $800.

If I were buying again today, I'd seriously consider the ThermalArc 252i unit, with cost being the limiting factor.

The 181i with tig option pushes the base unit to about $1000. $300 hundred extra for a spool gun so you can do aluminum. Downside is that it is 120v, only lift start tig, made in asia. And you're limited to 1/4" according to their marketing slick.

The new TA 252i unit is 230v, is MIG/TIG/Stick and is on sale at weldingsupply.com for $2100. Basically the big brother to the 181i. Assembled in NH, USA. Same limitation on lift start - no HF, or AC so no TIG on aluminum, but you could MIG aluminum with a $500 spool gun.

 

[MillerMav]

I am also just a garage mechanic/hobby guy but I will say that I love my Millermatic 180. Its a 220v unit with Autoset and I don't regret the purchase one bit. I also agree in staying out of the box stores. Find your local Airgas or some other weld supplier and go in to check out the units. I was almost sold on a Lincoln 180 until I actually went and put my hands on the welders. The gun for the Miller just felt more stout; it has a spring strain relief for the whip at the welder which the Lincoln didn't. Also the gun on the Miller is bolted together so it can be disassembled easily for service, the Lincoln is just a click together molded piece which may/may-not be more sturdy. Lastly the Millermatic 180's max thickness is 5/16" with standard wire and the Lincoln is only 3/16". So while people tell you they are the same that kind of stood out in my eyes as well.

 

[Jackfre]

I just got rid of my 135 for the 211. Do you need a 220 machine, no. Do you want a 220 machine, yes. I understand the money side of things but you could save a bit longer and get a nice machine in the 211 that gives you more flexibility and while you think you will be doing only lighter work, once you get the machine you will be surprised how things pop up. I'd say save and get a 211.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I'll second or third the 220v welder. I have a smaller Hobart 220v welder that has served me well.

I believe a welder is something you want to buy once and done. It's something you are going to have for 20 years, so why not spend a little extra and get something right off the bat.

 

[Chaznsc]

............. so why not spend a little extra and get something right off the bat.

In this case, a little extra is another $500..... I figure a 110 volt is going to run me 550 with a tank. $500 is a lot of money at my house

 

[Orange65]

I own or have owned a Miller Cricket (small 110 MIG unit), a Hobart 175, and an Autoarc 275. Autoarc is made by Miller. The only thing I have to say negative is that the Hobart's wire feeder was not as robust as the wire feeder in the other two welders. If I was to buy one today, I would buy a 220 VAC Miller or Autoarc. That said, I am looking at a Hobart TIG for doing aluminum in the next 6 months.

See if you can find a used welder- that may be the ticket to more amps for less $$.

 

[Garage Dog]

I only had a stick welder for over 25 years - they are very capable units with practice and proper rods. Think of everything that has been fixed or fabricated on farms over the last 60 years with the Lincoln tombstone you have now...

I end up buying a used Millermatic 180 220V off of CL about 8 years ago with and owned tank and regulator for $700, not a cheap but a fair price considering condition and what a tank costs.

I own all my own welding tanks at this point - I would never rent again, it is a waste of money for my usage. Do you research so you know if/when a tank needs to be re-certified by how it is stamped before buying used, but you can certainly find them used.

I would not buy a MIG without shielding gas.

220V vs 110V - Either will work, but 110V will draw lots of current which your breaker and wiring size need to accommodate to operate properly and safely .

Duty-cycle is another factor to consider, it shouldn't be an issue for the use you describe, but it is also an indicator of how it is built, bigger power supply, bigger heat sinks, etc.

If I need to transport my 180, I can pick it up by myself and put it in my truck if I need to. That way if a buddy needs a hand or I want to take it to the cabin I can without any hassle.

For thicker material, I can bevel and do multiple passes or fire-up the stick welder.

Happy Hunting

 

[Zeke]

It is expensive to buy cylinders but not too expensive to have them tested. They just supply you with another exchange and charge you for the old out-of-date unit. Sometimes they don't even charge. So, if you run up on a cylinder that is out-of-date, just use that as a negotiating point. Tell the seller it's no good and offer scrap value. Many don't know it's, what, only 30 bucks to pay for OOD tanks?

As I understand it, if you have an Airgas cylinder and it goes OOD, they won't charge you. YMMV.

 

[brucer]

If I were buying again today, I'd seriously consider the ThermalArc 252i unit, with cost being the limiting factor.

The 181i with tig option pushes the base unit to about $1000. $300 hundred extra for a spool gun so you can do aluminum. Downside is that it is 120v, only lift start tig, made in asia. And you're limited to 1/4" according to their marketing slick.

The new TA 252i unit is 230v, is MIG/TIG/Stick and is on sale at weldingsupply.com for $2100. Basically the big brother to the 181i. Assembled in NH, USA. Same limitation on lift start - no HF, or AC so no TIG on aluminum, but you could MIG aluminum with a $500 spool gun.

The 181i is dual voltage.. you are still getting multiprocess capabilities for under $1000, dont forget the free helmet , dont buy the tig torch that comes with the 181i, buy a ck17f torch for like $100, and the machien comes with a stick electrode clamp for stick welding.

My 211i is also dual voltage, I paid $1300 for my 211i including the tig torch from Indiana Oxygen, plus I got the free Tweco auto darkening helmet with it, which I like about as well as my old Speedglas 9001x
These Thermal Arc's are very underrated machines, using Tweco brand mig guns and Victor brand regulators.. I like the Tweco mig gun much better than the Bernard guns that I've used in the past..

The 252i's are not made in NH anymore, someone over on welding web bought his second 252i a couple months ago for a milking parlor and if I remember correct it was made in Malaysia or Mexico, was definitely not made in New Hampshire, although his older 252i (bought last year when they first came out) was made in NH.. One big plus for the 252i is it is outfitted with the dual drive rollers..


After I got my 211i and have got the chance to use it some, I like it much better than my old Lincoln 180c that it replaced, the arc is much smoother/softer on the TA211i compared to my 180c. The Tweco gun is far better than the **** gun that was on the lincoln 180c and the Lincoln 180c was not made in the USA either.. The 211i welds a lot like my old Miller 252 that I had many years ago, the arc is soft and smooth. The 211i will almost mig weld by itself.
I love the 211i, I liked it so much I just bought a Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster52 to go with it. I owned a Thermal Arc 185 ac/dc for 6 years and it was the cats *** for a small tig welder, I guess it made me a Thermal Arc/Thermal Dynamics fan..

 

[ATC]

I think you guys are getting a little out of touch with what the OP wants. I'm pretty sure he's not looking in the $1000-$2100 range as you are suggesting...not to mention the cost of tanks/regs/consumables on top of that.

 

[cdsvt]

Even a new 120v Lincoln (SP-140T?) is in the $650+ range, plus tank and consumables. Early in the conversation, I don't think the OP said what his budget was... But now I see $550 is the target.

For that budget, I'd shop local welding specialty shops and craigslist to buy a used welder. I see little MIG welders around here on craigslist all the time when people are looking to upgrade (no tax or shipping that way either).

I know you can get into a 120v MIG under budget that used. If you get lucky, maybe even a 230v unit...

If someone came along and offered me that kind of money, I'd sell my welder and tank since it'd allow me to upgrade.

 

[brucer]

I think you guys are getting a little out of touch with what the OP wants. I'm pretty sure he's not looking in the $1000-$2100 range as you are suggesting...not to mention the cost of tanks/regs/consumables on top of that.

yes but what I am tryin gto do is explain to the op that his current budget shouldnt be wasted on a 110v mig.. Even moving up to the 220v machines could actually save him money in the long run, especially if he doesnt care to weld 6months down the road, he decides to sell whichever welder he decides to get, he will take a bigger loss on the 110v mig compared to the 220v welder.. Also if he buys a 220v welder it greatly expands his capabilities, especially going with a multiprocess machine..

A multiprocess machine opens up his capacity greatly especially when figuring he can go to stick welding which will enable him to weld even thicker steel.. A multiprocess machine also expands on what welding process he can learn and experiment with, and to me thats a great advantage for just $250 more, plus you get a free $100 auto darkening helmet if he buys a thermal arc 181i. so actually hes only spending $150 more in total, when you figure in the cost of a decent welding helmet.

So why would one even consider a 120v mig? I cant see any reason to buy one, even if someone says budget, save more money and buy a better machine, you will thank yourself later..

 

[cdsvt]

I wish I knew about this site 12+ years ago when I bought my welder, because you are giving great advice. I wish I'd waited and saved to get a better machine. At the time, I didn't have advice like this, so I was focused on the specific task at hand, and the little Lincoln did the job. Then I bought a Thermal Arc 95s so I could TIG stainless. And I STILL can't do aluminum. I spent the same kind of money at the end of the day, but I painted myself into a corner with the first purchase... I guess I am hoping to help nudge Chaznsc to not make the same misstep.

One thing that didn't get mentioned (I don't think) that you can read a lot about on weldingweb is that the box store (Lowes, Home Depot) units are build specifically for the stores and are made with lower quality construction and parts to meet a price point. Now I can't say this is true myself, but a lot of people say that. I do know that it happens with some other items with large retailers, so it wouldn't surprise me. If that is true, then I'd skip buying your welder at Lowes/Home Depot.

Also Chaznsc - you mention you may want the ability to weld aluminum. Neither of those two welders you listed is going to be useful for aluminum... Even if you don't get the stuff to do it up front, make sure you keep the door open by buying a welder that you can add a spool gun if you want to weld aluminum. Some of them don't have that option.

If it was *me* starting over today, I'd make a very different choice. Even if it took months or years, I'd save up and buy something better.

Personally I think the best deal going to get 230v MIG, TIG, Stick, Spoolgun MIG are the Thermal Arc multi process welders. Even if you only buy the base welder now, you can add on TIG and/or a spool gun when you are ready, at only an incremental expense. Like brucer says, for for under $1200 you can get a 211i unit that will MIG and Stick weld. You can add on the other stuff when you're ready. Or, for about $1600 you can get a 211i with the Tig torch, Spool gun and a free helmet (and free shipping). There isn't much fabrication that a DIYer can't do with a setup like that.

 

[sberry]

I am all for budget tool deals but in this particular case encouragement to spend up is well deserved. Some shopping may be in order with a tight budget especially for deals with tank etc.

This is a different argument between saving a 1/2 # pressure drop in a short transmission line at wot but a matter of getting twice, 2X,,,, as much for 1/3 more or maybe better. The difference could be realized even at credit card rates.

 

[Falcon67]

Even a new 120v Lincoln (SP-140T?) is in the $650+ range, plus tank and consumables. Early in the conversation, I don't think the OP said what his budget was... But now I see $550 is the target.

For that budget, I'd shop local welding specialty shops and craigslist to buy a used welder. I see little MIG welders around here on craigslist all the time when people are looking to upgrade (no tax or shipping that way either).

I know you can get into a 120v MIG under budget that used. If you get lucky, maybe even a 230v unit...

If someone came along and offered me that kind of money, I'd sell my welder and tank since it'd allow me to upgrade.

$900 is the target price around here on a Hobart MVP. I think most of the posts say what I'll say - Don't buy twice. I will be buying twice and it pisses me off that I didn't do it (240V dual) right in the first place. Pisses the wife off too. One purchase, one tool - done. Not trying to bust the OPs budget, but "trailer" in the post says heavy duty steel and implies safety - that can be outside the range of operation for many 120V units. Multi-pass works but still - I had one hell of a time getting the 140 dialed in for decent .120 tube penetration.

The tank and consumables will be the same $$$ no matter the tool price. You got lucky, not everyone finds deals. I see cragslist welders here too - most have ridden around in the back of a pickup or sat outside for a few years. Overpriced junk. I own my tank because I only swap out about every 4 years or so, so the $400+ for the tank works out cheaper. I paid full freight on a tank at AirGas because I had paper work that assured me of tank support.