cinder block?

[warbird]

i am going through the research phase for my garage/shop... it will mostly be a shop, very rarely will cars get parked in it as it will be roughly 350FT from the house.
with the astronomical rise of wood and steel prices i am trying to think outside the box. i have spent 25+ years in the aerospace machining industry, and many of those years were spent in concrete block buildings, so i have a bit of a nostalgia on the aesthetic.
so one of the thoughts i am having is to build from cinder block, up about 8 feet and then build either steel or wood walls above that to a total of 12 foot. i see several pluses to this.
1. since i do alot of fab work, i do not have the worry of welding spatter causing fire
2. cinder blocks are not rising in price the way other building materials are.
3. i believe the insulating properties due to thermal mass with a 8 inch thick block wall will be better than steel or pole/steel wrapped (maybe i am wrong?)
4. i like the look.
can anyone come up with any negatives to this thought process?

thank you

 

[Tman]

What part of the country? Block building are cold unless you sheath them in modern foam insulation and such.

 

[warbird]

Hot springs Arkansas.
the block buildings i worked in as a machinist were in KS...i never felt that they were any colder than the steel buildings i worked in

 

[WNYflyer]

The joint at elevation +8' where the CMU and the upper wood/steel wall meet is structurally a "hinge joint" the way you describe it which is a no no. You would need a lateral diaphragm, lateral structural steel, something like that to stabilize that joint. Off the top of my head it would be more efficient structurally to use CMU all the way up to +12' rather than getting into some unusual mixed structural wall system. Code probably says the CMU needs to be steel reinforced vertically. Depending on your seismic zone code will often give you minimum reinforcing requirements before even any structural calculations are done. I would touch base with you local building department and explain your anticipated type of construction, of course that is assuming that you have a building department that would need to permit it.

 

[DTE]

I love mine, wind proof, fire proof (for the most part) keep the doors closed and it stays cool in the summer until the temps get up in the 80's . I like the industrial feel.

 

[nadogail]

IMHO, Depending on local codes you may need to have vertical re-enforcement as well as horizontal. I have seen block walls with both horizontal and vertical rebar and then poured full of concrete.

What used to be OK may have changed in the name of earthquake safety.

Your Local Building Department or a block supplier should know.

 

[River Runner]

The only drawback I see to block at this time is the labor. I did my 4' stem walls from the footing with fully grouted block and a top bond beam. If I had known lumber was going to skyrocket I would have done the whole thing in block. I suppose I still could but I'd have to drill and epoxy the rebar in since I put in anchors for lumber.

You can just run your electrical in conduit on the walls and you have a solid structure. Put foam on the exterior and side or stucco. 2" of foam is cheaper than OSB these days! With todays lumber prices CMU and ICF make more sense.

 

[DTE]

You can have expanding foam sprayed in the cavities also.

 

[Renegade1LI]

Block is an excellent choice, most commercial structures are built from it, remember the three little pigs. It will outlast any timber structure with minimal maintenance & you have the added fire protection plus a very durable wall finish. It is definitely worth pricing out.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Hot springs Arkansas.
the block buildings i worked in as a machinist were in KS...i never felt that they were any colder than the steel buildings i worked in

But you probably weren't paying the heating bill... I'd insulate the place myself.

 

[joes169]

I love mine, wind proof, fire proof (for the most part) keep the doors closed and it stays cool in the summer until the temps get up in the 80's . I like the industrial feel.

Same here, I "inherited" an old block shop about 18 years ago. I added a small addition and 5 courses of block on the whole building, and would never look back. Sure, there's more efficient ways to build if you rely completely on R-values, and give no value to thermal mass, just like all of the US building codes currently do, but in Arkansas it's probably hard to find a better building material at this point of time.........


(Disclaimer: I'm a mason, I love concrete block...........)

 

[drivesitfar]

I live in a cement block house. ONE of the owners before me or maybe a few of them added on rooms at some time maybe every year or paycheck or whatever. since several of my interior walls were exterior at one point it's pretty solid. if i tore off the flat roof (was going to when we moved in 33 years ago and then we had twins so just re roofed it) i'd probably finish the wiring that i've done about 80% of and fill the hollow blocks with cement just because.

I can say I own more than most commercial building companies do of rotohammers, cement bits and such to run wires and cables and plumbing.

I tacked on 1x4's with cement glue and 1.5 inch joist hanger nails and then put on Hardie Plank 6 inch siding with 4.5 inch reveal so it looks pretty much like a wood home. ( part of the front of our home is a smaller block, but rest is the standard 2 hole you see everywhere)

i would continue up to the height of your ceilings at 8, 10 or 12 foot or whatever then put on beams (wood or steel) or trusses and roof it.

we've had several 6.5+ earthquakes since we moved in here and honestly never felt any of them and as far as I know not any damage either, but we were not at the center of those. even though you are not in a earthquake or probably any hurricanes either i'd still load up about every 3rd column with rebar vertical and horizontally every couple feet to add some extra support.

good luck!!

 

[OldNeons]

I would look seriously at Insulated Concrete Form (ICF) construction. It is much more energy efficient than CMU and goes up quickly using larger blocks. Also you can finish the inside and outside however guy like - cement or metal siding, stucco, etc.

 

[metlmunchr]

When I bought my house, it came with a thousand sq ft concrete block detached garage as well as an attached double garage. The detached has stucco on the block and siding on the gables to match the house. Open trusses up to the roof and no other insulation.

I insulated with R19 batts between the bottom truss chords and added rigid foam and weatherstripping to the pair of 9x7 uninsulated wood garage doors and a rubber sweep at the bottom of the man door. Still nothing on the walls, nor in the block cavities.

The area I use as a shop is about 700 sq ft, walled off from the remainder. I'm in the mountains of western NC at about 2500 ft elevation. Night time lows in the mid 20's are common. I have a 5kW electric heater I use to heat the shop. When the temp is lower mid 30's the heater will run approx 1/3 of the time after an hour warm up if the shop is cold soaked. Mid 20's, it will run about half time. To put some dollars on this, with power @ 13 cents/kWh including tax, etc an hour warm up plus 4 hours work time costs me $1.40 to $1.90 depending on outdoor temp. This is heating to the point where a short sleeve shirt is comfortable for working.

I've purchased a 1.5 ton mini-split for installation this spring. It will reduce the above heating costs by roughly 2/3. If I lived up north, it would be easy to justify adding foam board and acrylic stucco to the exterior, but I can't see it given the projected operating costs of the mini and the average amount of time I spend out there daily.

If you go with block, I agree with taking the block all the way up. I've sprayed my interior walls with block filler (a cheap, thick primer) and topcoated with semi-gloss white. This seals off the surface of the block to the point where you don't get dust collection such that the block has to be blown off or vacuumed to get rid of accumulated dirt, and it reflects light very well without creating glare. Some companies advertise "insulating paint" for block, but that stuff has been tested multiple times and found to be useless.

You might look at cost versus benefit for filling the block cavities with vermiculite or foam beads for insulation. These products are reasonably priced and do add insulating value to the block. Mine doesn't have it because it needs to be added before any nailer is added to the top of the wall, and in the case of bond beams, before the bond course is laid. Its not something that can be easily added to a completed building.

Given the cost of alternatives, if I was building today I'd likely go with block based on my experiences with it over a number of years. Like yourself, I happen to like the way it looks inside, and I don't have to worry about my clumsy *** bumping a wall and knocking a hole thru sheetrock

 

[MushCreek]

I would look seriously at Insulated Concrete Form (ICF) construction. It is much more energy efficient than CMU and goes up quickly using larger blocks. Also you can finish the inside and outside however guy like - cement or metal siding, stucco, etc.

ICF is definitely superior to just about anything. I built my house out of it. Even DIY, though, it would be WAY more expensive. Then, you HAVE to cover both the inside and outside with something, which equals more cost. CMU (concrete block) is probably the cheapest right now, and all you have to do is paint it (and technically, you don't even have to do that).

Note to the OP- If you go with block, make SURE you seal it before painting! I rented a shop that was CMU, and they didn't seal it. In a driving rain, it would soak through, and the inside of the walls would get wet, and eventually there was mold and algae growing on it.

 

[CraigStu]

Would 4 ft of block and 8 ft of wood still be considered a hinge point? I have had several garages that were 2ft block and then 8 of wood which seems very common.

 

[drivesitfar]

I've heard and seen better products like some have just mentioned, but I also think cost could be an issue. that said it's worth checking out.

I happened to watch a few youtube videos (maybe more than a few) and saw that there is a cement and brick laying championship held in LAS VEGAS every year. OMG those guys are not only quick/fast they also are plumb and level too so maybe there is a few guys in your area that could put up your garage/shop pretty quickly and professionally if you don't want to do it yourself.

just an FYI. I used to sell gym equipment and occasionally i'd have several thousand weight plates I'd have at my house. I never had any issues (other than with my bride) about putting a few thousand pounds in a couple stacks in our entry area for a few days that was on 2x12's on 16 inch centers resting on cement cinder blocks over a 18 inch crawl space. steel might be better if you can get it, but wood can really hold quite a bit too and our entry is about 15 feet wide.

 

[drivesitfar]

CRAIG: your stub wall is pretty common yes. I'm guessing you have J bolts and screws keeping the wood on that cement block too. not sure what the member is mentioning hinge point cause he sounds like an engineer and i'm just a DIY old REALTOR that sold new and used homes.

I think our Original Poster was talking about going up higher, but not to the top/ceiling which should be ok, but I still think he needs to attach that wood or steel to the cinder block if he does so why not go all the way or like you just out of the dirt?

 

[CraigStu]

Yep, I was just curious about the theory of hinge points since I have seen them mentioned in several thread here over the 6-7 years. The last time we had a bay added to our garage it was 2ft block and 8ft wood. At the time the contractor said that is a great idea as block is always less expensive than wood. I watched the sub he brought to do the block and I can see how that is true. Once he got block up from the footers to a normal ground level, adding 3 more layers was a piece of cake. These days, w/ wood costing what it does, plus his actually liking block, I think block all the way up would be an obvious choice for the OP.

 

[racer-john]

WHAT is the difference between "cinder block" and "concrete block"?

 

[joes169]

WHAT is the difference between "cinder block" and "concrete block"?

Cinder block haven't been produced since the 1930's or 40's in most regions. Standard block are all heavyweight concrete now. The term "cinder block" is just a slang term now.....

 

[theoldwizard1]

3. i believe the insulating properties due to thermal mass with a 8 inch thick block wall will be better than steel or pole/steel wrapped (maybe i am wrong?)

There is a lot of air inside one of them !

 

[harley jim]

Racer John
Cinder blocks used to be made from coal cinders and cement.
Concrete blocks are made from crushed rock and concrete and cement.

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[WNYflyer]

WHAT is the difference between "cinder block" and "concrete block"?

Typically concrete block these days would be "Load Bearing Concrete Masonry Units" aka "CMU" made of cementitious and aggregate materials. The manufacturing specification says there are 3 different density/weight classes of CMU, Normal, Medium and Lightweight. Not to say every vendor produces or carries all the different classes.

Here is probably more than you want to know

http://www.masonryinstitute.com/wp-content/uploads/ASTM_C90-09.pdf

I have heard the term "cinder block" tossed around over many years and I am assuming blocks at one time where made with cement and waste cinders from all the coal burning back in the day. Even today many people use the terms "cinder block" and "concrete block" interchangeably but they are different animals as far as ingredients.

 

[harley jim]

Warbird
I built mine with concrete block knowing I weld and cut with an oxy/acet. rig. Fire was my main reason. The only mistake I think I made was not going 12' I only went 10'
When I built I had to put a 1/2" rebar into a certain amount of the voids and fill them with concrete. I finished the ceiling with 1/2" osb and caulked the joints and painted to seal it from sparks. All of the electrical on the block is surface mounted conduit. I cant think of a negative.
I put a window air unit in the wall and an Ashley wood stove in the corner I work in my tee shirt year round. I'm familiar with your location my folks are from Caraway and Marked tree so you get a little more cold than I do but not a big difference.

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[racer-john]

use of the terms "cinder block" and "concrete block" interchangeably but they are different animals as far as ingredients.

Exactly as I understood, just wish people would stop with the "cinder block syndrome".

 

[rustyjames]

What's great about going with block is that is you don't have to stress about what you installed going bad if you have to stop the construction, for whatever reason. When building with wood you're pretty much committed to getting it done ASAP. That and you have a somewhat finished product that you can improve upon over time.

 

[olytdi]

Does anyone with block construction experience know what ballpark sq ft prices run for installed concrete block structures? Would be good to see if it could be done less expensively than with timber pole barn methodology sheathed with OSB...

I was just informed that I can expect 10 - 15% increase in the cost of my 36X36 due to lumber costs. I, too, am willing to thing out of the box at this point.

 

[harley jim]

I'm not sure what the rate is in your area is but here the rule of thumb is the same as the block, ie if it cost 1.25 per block it cost 1.25 to lay it. So I figure how many block a job takes and double it.

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[drivesitfar]

Thanks guys for clarifying what CINDER BLOCK actually is!!! I always called it CEMENT BLOCK and always thought Cinder block was an old name for the same thing when it's block that looks the same with a totally different material.

one thing i've seen and can't recall why it was happening, but sometimes i've seen the inside of cement block SWEAT. anybody want to say why that happens?

also if you are putting any cement block below grade make sure to put on either the product to keep it dry inside on the dirt side of the block. you can also paint it on inside too if you'd like to make sure to try to keep moisture out of your inside.

 

[MushCreek]

Cement block is incorrect, too. It's concrete block. Cement is a component of concrete. Without sand and aggregate, cement has almost no strength at all. Shorthand for block is CMU.

 

[drivesitfar]

MUSH: I'll try to remember that. yep since I mix my own cement and mortar I kinda know how things are made, but OLD HABITS are not easy to break.

thanks

 

[DTE]

When I built mine in 2014 here in NC I paid $2.00 per block to have them laid. The mason did not charge any extra to set the lintels. ( There were 4 ) The front wall is grouted solid with ready mix. And he did not charge extra for that labor either. My walls from floor level up took 995 block and it took 2 days to lay them and total cost for labor, block, mortar, sand , wire, rebar and ready mix was 5k

 

[WNYflyer]

What's great about going with block is that is you don't have to stress about what you installed going bad if you have to stop the construction, for whatever reason. When building with wood you're pretty much committed to getting it done ASAP. That and you have a somewhat finished product that you can improve upon over time.

I would agree that the block is definitely more forgiving of weather related issues than lumber. Assuming an above grade exterior single story CMU wall built off say a concrete foundation wall, the one thing you really need to be concerned with concrete block (CMU) is that it is properly laterally braced during construction as you work your way up. Typically before the roof goes on the concrete block walls are not very stable. I think OSHA has clamped down on this over the years, I think anything over 8' needs to be braced during construction. I know in our area, and I assume nationwide, through the years construction workers have been killed by unbraced walls that collapse during a good wind. Thus I am assuming the OSHA clampdown/requirements. During construction be weary of being around above grade high unbraced CMU walls during a good wind.

 

[harley jim]

I would agree that the block is definitely more forgiving of weather related issues than lumber. Assuming an above grade exterior single story CMU wall built off say a concrete foundation wall, the one thing you really need to be concerned with concrete block (CMU) is that it is properly laterally braced during construction as you work your way up. Typically before the roof goes on the concrete block walls are not very stable. I think OSHA has clamped down on this over the years, I think anything over 8' needs to be braced during construction. I know in our area, and I assume nationwide, through the years construction workers have been killed by unbraced walls that collapse during a good wind. Thus I am assuming the OSHA clampdown/requirements. During construction be weary of being around above grade high unbraced CMU walls during a good wind.

That is a good point, my walls were braced until the voids were filled then the contractor removed them.
In the 80s I saw a 200' wall fall from wind. They were building a grocery store and it didnt have enough bracing, overnight the wind got it.

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[cgall]

You can brace the cinder block with angle iron.

 

[MushCreek]

MUSH: I'll try to remember that. yep since I mix my own cement and mortar I kinda know how things are made, but OLD HABITS are not easy to break.

thanks

Which is why everybody stills calls 'em cinder blocks.

 

[dutchgray]

Note to the OP- If you go with block, make SURE you seal it before painting! I rented a shop that was CMU, and they didn't seal it. In a driving rain, it would soak through, and the inside of the walls would get wet, and eventually there was mold and algae growing on it.

Or you build like we do in the UK, where you would have an interior masonry skin, commonly 4" lightweight block but you could do 4" solid concrete block, then a cavity, which used to be 2" and empty but nowadays will often have up to 4" of insulation in them, then the outer masonry skin, brick, stone or concrete block and rendered, both skins built on a damp proof strip of plastic at floor level. Then you don't get any water through.

 

[Hilltopmasonry]

Cinder block haven't been produced since the 1930's or 40's in most regions. Standard block are all heavyweight concrete now. The term "cinder block" is just a slang term now.....

It’s basically the same thing as everybody calling the machine a bobcat instead of a skid steer or a sawsall instead of a reciprocating saw

I am a mason contractor and still call them cinderblocks

lol

 

[Bob Peach]

I grew up in a block house in MA. My father thought the air space would act as insulation. I had frost on my bedroom walls all winter. This was in the late 50`s. Makes me cold thinking about it .