clay caves

[BurtEggley]

Rarely worth it to sue the city.
Did the flipper actually decline to fix this?

I'd do this:
1) Send a written "registered mail" demand letter to the flipper. Request that the issue be resolved by X date.

2) If there is a listing Realtor, send a registered letter to the Realtor indicating that there is an issue caused by the "current owner" associated with construction on this home and if not resolved by [X date] you intend to litigate. Realtor will be required to disclose and won't want this to hold up the sale.

It's an initial bluff.. Frankly.

If you were going to sue, this is a small claims issue, but you've got to figure out "damages" via having it fixed or fixing it yourself (damages would be less documented). Small claims would be the way to go.

I'm surprised on one has said something, but that's a "damp area" - I can't tell the wire types, but I doubt that will pass code unless put in conduit. And those seem to be major power wires....

they are major. They feed in, a connection is made to each of the two homes, and then they continue back around the neighborhood to feed street lights and other homes. Conduit was added on their side after the photo was taken. It was not added on my side.

 

[matt_i]

Unfortunately you came up on the wrong end of this. I think I would fill it with sand, or a sandy-soil mix. I wouldn't want to be the guy who was found to have filled it with concrete because suddenly an entity with more or less unlimited funds could be suing YOU to remediate. I don't think you are ever going to be able to get it back to "uncompacted fill" but you can either minimize your loading over that area, or cut out a surrounding section some years down the road and repour on top of the fill back to level with the top surface to eliminate the void. As long as you avoid heavily laden 3500s or any medium duty trucks I don't think you will have a major issue.

You could also caution future buyers about the quality of the flipper's work and recommend need for extreme due-diligence. That economic pain could be significant if the house sits waiting to be sold for a significant amount of time. Seems like many flippers work on loans (eg without owning the property outright) and the longer it waits to be sold, the lower the profit.

 

[DG930]

You could also caution future buyers about the quality of the flipper's work and recommend need for extreme due-diligence. That economic pain could be significant if the house sits waiting to be sold for a significant amount of time. Seems like many flippers work on loans (eg without owning the property outright) and the longer it waits to be sold, the lower the profit.

My thinking exactly. My first move would be a big ******* sign on my property that pointed to the hole and called out the flippers **** up.

I think you will be surprised how fast real estate agents and potential buyer questions push dipshit flipper to try and make you happy.

Cheap and most likely effective.

 

[Skooterj]

Get an estimate from a reputable contractor to fix your side of the property and send the quote to the flipper. Tell him you want made whole again. If not, get a lien for that amount placed on the property. Or sue him in small claims court for that amount.

 

[BurtEggley]

Get an estimate from a reputable contractor to fix your side of the property and send the quote to the flipper. Tell him you want made whole again. If not, get a lien for that amount placed on the property. Or sue him in small claims court for that amount.

that is probably the way we are headed

 

[andyvh1959]

So if you were to hire a qualified commercial electrician familair with national and local codes to review what (to me and others here) looks like questionable work at best, and then present that to a local TV station reporter (the type that loves to expose local issues), perhaps that may kick their asses into action. And then send that info to all the local realtors, as far as how it may impact all the homes in the neighborhood (though your house is included). May be enough to get the work done properly.

 

[BurtEggley]

The electrical work is done properly. The back fill is not. I have not heard back from my attorney yet. I'll call him next week if he does not get back to me.

 

[Muttly]

I'd hire a concrete mud jacker to fill and level the areas, either with concrete grout or foam, then sue is small claims court. It looks like you have enough documentation to easily win.

If you want to be nice, get an estimate for the work and let the flipper know the cost ahead of time if he doesn't correct it.

 

[38Chevy454]

I agree, get one of the guys who do concrete lifting, but you want one that uses mud mix, not foam. they inject mud mix under pressure. Get that quote, and then send to flipper, with copies to city and utility. Include pictures to show what needs done. Ensure an expected completion date, or threaten lawsuit and lien.

 

[TheRealZeus]

Move?

 

[GN4WHLN]

I would carefully document all of it. Pictures, video with narration, any correspondence, and immediately document any conversations that take place. Speak to an attorney. If you have a case, you can also recover your costs. Municipalities and agencies have insurance for such things, and often their policy has an amount they can agree to for damages without litigation. It's essentially "go away" money. Where I live, it's typically 100K in a small city. That doesn't mean you can get a 100K, but if the cost of repair and attorney costs were, say 20K, they could wrap this up if they were so inclined, without a judgment. A proceeding will be in civil court, where you win by demonstrating a preponderance of evidence. Its a much lower standard than a criminal proceeding. Because this mess was not the result of a contract between you and the neighbor or the utility company, I think you would have a better chance because there would be no questions regarding whether or not you met the terms of any agreement. It really would be whether the utility had the right to be there and if there are notification requirements and if the work was done to code and a reasonable standard for clean-up. It really would have been the smarter move for the utility to just come and make it right.
I wouldn't fill the holes unless your attorney advises you to as a measure of "self-help". One thing that concerns me is the splices. I don't know if that is permissible for direct bury or if they are to be enclosed in a box. I would find out. Once you fill it with concrete, it becomes a bigger problem if it needs to be redone or inspected. You could end up screwing up a good case, by doing that. It could be the difference between getting fixed on their dime and now, it's your problem.
Your attorney can tell you if the power company accessed your land legally and gave proper notifications to you. They certainly didn't complete the job, and it's possible they botched it in other ways. An attorney can guide you legally and tell you what you need to proceed. Most entities will tell you just to "pound sand" if you do not have representation because you are unlikely to get to court or successfully argue the matter.
I hope this is all resolved in your favor.

 

[finn]

My take on this mess: What they did was wrong, but in the end you’re creating unnecessary stress on yourself trying to make someone accountable to “make things right”

The power company isn’t going to fix it period. They didn’t dig the hole.

The hole isn’t very big, and isn’t going to collapse your driveway in your lifetime.

Fix it yourself, or have your landscaper do it. Just fill it with sand and a little topsoil or mulch. I was expecting a 30’ long trench five feet deep until I saw the pictures in a later post. I almost burst out laughing when I saw those pictures.

Life’s too short to dwell on what are, all things considered trivial matters.

The so called flipper, if that’s what he really is, will be gone from your life in short order. It’s not right, but if that’s the biggest problem or setback you’ve ever experienced, you’re luckier than most.

Time to move on with life. Nobody here is going to resolve the issue. You can file legal action, but that’s just going to drag things out and continue to make your life miserable, with little chance of immediate success.

 

[Lassen Forge]

My only concern is the assumedly municipal power going to street lighting... that's a little more than just an inconvenience - it puts you in hot water if that system effs up. (We know - we've gone after property owners who allow a hazard to encorach on our legal ROW/Easement... )

they are major. They feed in, a connection is made to each of the two homes, and then they continue back around the neighborhood to feed street lights and other homes. Conduit was added on their side after the photo was taken. It was not added on my side.

That flipper will be long gone. Too bad, so sad, not unlike the UTV thread also going on - I can walk away, going haw haw, and stick you with my eff-up.

This is one of those situations that *****, but it needs to be taken care of right, before it gets shittier, either the municipality comes after you for damaging their lines (even tho it was done without your permission) or the aforementioned kid's parents sue the daylights out of you for letting little Johnny become domestic Long Pig when he rode his bicycle into the hole into all those high amp power lines...

This sounds excessive, but you're now also dealing with municipal power feeds, so whatever you do has to be done right and to their standards, even if on your property... that might get pricey, but you're kinda sorta stuck in the situation. Then you file against the flipper who contracted to do the damage (and all the costs you're incurring thanks to their brand of fail), lien all over their now unsellable flipjob, and let them pay forrt their grevious eff-up.

 

[Cobra5150]

How about putting up a huge sign informing buyers to ask about the shortcuts and non-conforming issues you mentioned. That’s not slandering just prompting what should be asked.

 

[BurtEggley]

In case anything i could do might make it worse, I want to speak with my / an attorney first. If his answer is "they ignored it and told you it was the flippers responsibility, and therefore it falls on you to solve it per the POCO and city," then I will let the hose run there for a couple hours to water the bushes and when the area collapses then I will call the city and POCO to report a hazardous situation and let them tell me what to do with the hazard on THEIR easement left by THEIR work. They will have to decide how they want the problem solved. My understanding is that they wanted six to 10 inches of gravel in it and then dirt compacted over the gravel. That was not done but they signed off on it anyway.

 

[finn]

In case anything i could do might make it worse, I want to speak with my / an attorney first. If his answer is "they ignored it and told you it was the flippers responsibility, and therefore it falls on you to solve it per the POCO and city," then I will let the hose run there for a couple hours to water the bushes and when the area collapses then I will call the city and POCO to report a hazardous situation and let them tell me what to do with the hazard on THEIR easement left by THEIR work. They will have to decide how they want the problem solved. My understanding is that they wanted six to 10 inches of gravel in it and then dirt compacted over the gravel. That was not done but they signed off on it anyway.

Just curious, but how , exactly did “they” sign off?
Is there some sort of document, as you’re implying?

I have several utility easements mop four properties in two states. I’m responsible for maintaining all of those easements. The utilities have access rights, thou…

If they dig something up, they fill the hole, but I thought you said your neighbor dug it up, not the utility.

I’m missing something here.

Did you call your insurance agent? They might cover the damage.

 

[BurtEggley]

In answer to your question. There was a City permit and a work order at the POCO to upgrade his service. There was no certificate of occupancy until electrical power was restored to that house. The house was already in escrow but we did not know it so the morning the city allowed occupancy, the escrow closed. The new owners started moving in that afternoon. We did not even know it had been signed off on because we were at the vet when the final inspectors came. City deferred to the POCO that their needs had been met. The flipper packed dirt over everything and made it look like he did the work the POCO wanted. He only filled the trenches he dug where it was convenient for him to do so. I know that there are open trenches underground in the easement area because I probed them. I warned the city and POCO but they ignored it and told me to sue him because it was his problem, only the wiring was theirs. I guarantee you that someone standing in that area will collapse it but I don't want to get hurt so I've advised my other half to stay off that area. Essentially what has happened in a nutshell is that someone came onto your property and dug it up to get to wiring. The city says talk to the POCO. The POCO says we never authorized it, take it up with the guy who came onto your property and dug without authorization. The POCO says we did the wiring right. My opinion is that a hazard exists. That area will collapse given dampness, weight on it and time. Hopefully when no one is on it and a truck is not delivering gravel or garden soil to me. We aren't talking a mole tunnel here. We are talking a 18" high x 2' wide tunnel in part of that area. It is at least 2' to 3' long but it could be as much as 5' to 6' long under part of it. The guy was an ***. If he had come to me first, I would have taken out one of the bushes and crape myrtles, burlapped the roots, and replanted it when he was done. That is one remedy I have but now if I hire someone and they are digging and fall into that area when it collapses, I don't want to be sued for it, or if they break the conduit that was snaked back into that area. I don't know how far it goes and if wires are still exposed under there. I could have avoided this if he had done as he was told to talk with me first, but that is water over the dam and under the bridge now. I have to deal with what is there.

 

[four.cycle]

I would:
1. hire a lawyer, knowing beforehand that it was going to cost a lot of money, time, and aggravation.
2. take every party involved into court: the power company, the neighbor, the county permit board - each and every goddam one of them.
NAMED as individuals in the charging documents. Go after the whole goddam cartel. Because at least one of them is going go flip right into the welcoming arms of your attorney.

 

[jkuro]

Was the work done in the Right of Way, in an easement or on your property? I would find out before you hire an attorney.

 

[BillK]

I am just curious. Do you have any pictures of the area in question when it was dug up but before they filled the trench ? I guess from your pictures it is very hard to see a very dangerous situation if the two small holes you show were just filled up with clean fill dirt.

 

[ArcReactorKC]

We have "bad neighbor" threads all the time.

I think in the case of this flipper trying to sell a slapped together house I would be the worst neighbor possible from this point. Maybe you get something done legally with a lawyer, maybe you don't. I would be the most obnoxious person on the planet anytime they are attempting to sell that house.

If they are doing work like this then they probably don't have the actual cash on hand to take care of this flip and need it to sell quickly. I think I would suddenly need to do equipment maintenance non-stop when potential buyers are around and none of my equipment would have working mufflers. I'd also lose the sleeves to all my shirts and start saying "brother" a lot. If my assumption is true (you know what they say about those) the flipper will fall behind on their ability to pay the fix and flip loan pretty fast.

Hypothetically of course.

 

[BurtEggley]

A. You can't see the worst part in any photo. It is hidden in the shade. I have many photos but a cave in the shade is a dark spot.

A. As to going after all of them. That is what I want to talk to the attorney about.

A. Yes it is in an easement. The POCO is obligated to put it back the way it was before they dug to the best of their ability. Normally the POCO does the digging. They put up a notice or knock on your door to let you know they need to dig. When they are done they put everything back to normal. What happened, I discussed earlier, the flipper got caught doing remodeling the house without permits. It took him two months to get his permits for the work he had already begun. The house was labeled unfit for occupancy when the city found out because he tore out bearing walls. During the work fixing everything he made a mess of, he moved and upgraded the electrical panel without a permit to facilitate his changes but the work was not done to code so he had to redo everything including put in the new 200 amp service. He was trying to sell the house with a 200 amp panel but the old 100 amp underground service. To speed things up after he got caught, he decided to dig up the easement instead of waiting for the POCO to do it. His defense was always "They told me to do it." They denied it, said they told him not to dig on my property until he got permission from me, then told me that because he initiated digging, any complaints had to be done to him or in court against him. It took him twice as long than if he had just been patient and let the POCO do it. It probably took ten scheduled appointments for the city and POCO to come out to redo the underground service instead of a normal just one visit. They were angry with him and just wanted the work finished because he was taking up too much of their time.

A. The house sold and closed escrow the same day the city signed off on the permits. We were not home when they came but rather at the vet with a suddenly sick 14 year old family dog that was dying. He moved the appointment up and no one told us. When he sold the house it was apparently the first day he listed it, and at that point the house did not even have an occupancy permit yet, he had no electricity and the permits were not final. We did not know it was sold because he kept showing it after it was sold. The people who bought it are a nice couple. They have their hands full already fixing all the things he did wrong including arguing with him about the things they are finding wrong daily. They had no intentional part of this mess. I was just thinking of fixing this myself with one of my landscapers, but someone here rightfully pointed out that if my fix makes things worse, I could be liable. I'll figure it out and land on my feet. If my attorney does not get back to me soon, I will likely call the POCO and begin a campaign of calling them every couple days until they come out to talk about it again.

 

[KenC]

A. You can't see the worst part in any photo. It is hidden in the shade. I have many photos but a cave in the shade is a dark spot.

A. As to going after all of them. That is what I want to talk to the attorney about.

A. Yes it is in an easement. The POCO is obligated to put it back the way it was before they dug to the best of their ability. Normally the POCO does the digging. They put up a notice or knock on your door to let you know they need to dig. When they are done they put everything back to normal. What happened, I discussed earlier, the flipper got caught doing remodeling the house without permits. It took him two months to get his permits for the work he had already begun. The house was labeled unfit for occupancy when the city found out because he tore out bearing walls. During the work fixing everything he made a mess of, he moved and upgraded the electrical panel without a permit to facilitate his changes but the work was not done to code so he had to redo everything including put in the new 200 amp service. He was trying to sell the house with a 200 amp panel but the old 100 amp underground service. To speed things up after he got caught, he decided to dig up the easement instead of waiting for the POCO to do it. His defense was always "They told me to do it." They denied it, said they told him not to dig on my property until he got permission from me, then told me that because he initiated digging, any complaints had to be done to him or in court against him. It took him twice as long than if he had just been patient and let the POCO do it. It probably took ten scheduled appointments for the city and POCO to come out to redo the underground service instead of a normal just one visit. They were angry with him and just wanted the work finished because he was taking up too much of their time.

A. The house sold and closed escrow the same day the city signed off on the permits. We were not home when they came but rather at the vet with a suddenly sick 14 year old family dog that was dying. He moved the appointment up and no one told us. When he sold the house it was apparently the first day he listed it, and at that point the house did not even have an occupancy permit yet, he had no electricity and the permits were not final. We did not know it was sold because he kept showing it after it was sold. The people who bought it are a nice couple. They have their hands full already fixing all the things he did wrong including arguing with him about the things they are finding wrong daily. They had no intentional part of this mess. I was just thinking of fixing this myself with one of my landscapers, but someone here rightfully pointed out that if my fix makes things worse, I could be liable. I'll figure it out and land on my feet. If my attorney does not get back to me soon, I will likely call the POCO and begin a campaign of calling them every couple days until they come out to talk about it again.

I only have one observation and one piece of advice.

Advice first: Stop talking. If it hasn't been written it was never said. First piece of advice I received upon my first assignment to a management level job. Ask in writing, preferably paper, not email. Answer in the same method. Deal with the highest level available, if the person your dealing with isn't empowered to say yes, don't accept no.

Observation: In most multi-stage or multi-vendor issues, the last person that touched it owns it. IOW, if the POCO spliced or installed stuff in that hole, they should own closing it.

 

[four.cycle]

^ I would add to that: do not use email. Use snail mail and send everything via registered mail to all parties involved.

 

[Uncle murph]

I will stay out of the "who is responsible" discussion.

When I saw your post I was envisioning a cave the size of my garage lol. It looks and sounds like a couple of wheelbarrows of clean fill dirt or top soil should fill it in just fine if you decide to do it yourself. I really dont see the issue as far as that part goes. Thats what they dugout, put the same thing back in.

Technically it’s a tunnel.

 

[finn]

We have "bad neighbor" threads all the time.

I think in the case of this flipper trying to sell a slapped together house I would be the worst neighbor possible from this point. Maybe you get something done legally with a lawyer, maybe you don't. I would be the most obnoxious person on the planet anytime they are attempting to sell that house.

If they are doing work like this then they probably don't have the actual cash on hand to take care of this flip and need it to sell quickly. I think I would suddenly need to do equipment maintenance non-stop when potential buyers are around and none of my equipment would have working mufflers. I'd also lose the sleeves to all my shirts and start saying "brother" a lot. If my assumption is true (you know what they say about those) the flipper will fall behind on their ability to pay the fix and flip loan pretty fast.

Hypothetically of course.

He said the new owners are already moving in.

They have no dog in this fight. What’s to be gained by being an ******* towards them?

This is entirely between the long gone alleged flipper and the OP.

 

[gba2331]

Ugh, sounds like the flipper has already moved on?

My takeaways from these discussions are 1) this will probably cost you some money, 2) you don’t want to do anything because then you become liable, 3) you definitely do not want the flipper to be the one who fixes this problem.

 

[oldmachinenut]

Another suggestion,