Clips/process for leveling porcelain tile.

[Arkive]

I've gotten off Team Epoxy and shifted over to Team Porcelain. I'm wrapping up my research but one thing I was curious about was leveling clips. Obviously keeping all the tiles level is paramount, and I still think one of the clip/wedge systems is probably the way to go, but will the clips create voids underneath the tile when removed that could potentially create weak spots? Are there clips that minimize this? Is there something you can put in between the tiles before grouting to fill those gaps (like a self-leveler)? Is there a grout material that has a thinner consistency conducive to a garage environment that would find it's way into those gaps? Is there a better process for leveling tile that doesn't involve me being a robot with digital precision? Am I just completely overthinking this? As a note this is a big surface area (1400 sqft) and I'm very OCD.

*Edit* - After watching a detailed video on the install I realize now the clip bases stay in so my concern is a non-issue. If a mod wants to delete this thread I would be fine with that. Thanks.

 

[gungatim]

not an expert but I've never heard of these and looked it up. I have an uneven tile floor in my kitchen (with a dozen cracked tiles as well as some lippage from the original install) I need to get to replacing so timely thread.

looks like lots of different designs out there, the few instructions I read say the floor still needs to be level, the clips keep the tiles level with each other but don't make up for an uneven floor. (though I imagine they would help somewhat assuming you use the right trowel notch and enough cement)

as far as voids, from what I saw most of the clips seem to snap off manually or with a tool leaving part of it below the tile to be covered with grout. (?)

curious what the pro's have to say, I know there are some on here who likely will chime in.

 

[Arkive]

I was under the impression the clip (and it's base) could be flexed and pulled through once the thinset had hardened, but I suppose if the clip base stays underneath that solves the issue (apart from adding a bunch more clips to the required parts list). Also, I didn't mean this thread from a floor leveling perspective, just keeping the tiles level relative to each other so there aren't any lips/edges to chip.

 

[engineer2]

I've used the clips and love them. Never an issue leaving the base of the clip under the tile. Never an issue with cracked tiles if you use Schluter Ditra.

 

[foodie]

Hopefully Dakota will reply to this. If this is for a garage floor he does not recommend using the spacers and clips for a garage floor. You can check out his thread and I believe someone asked this question.

 

[b-boy]

I used them in a bathroom. They worked pretty well. The floor does need to be level, though. They won't make up for that. They are pretty pricey.

My biggest complaint was that I had to stop mid-job.Because of that the last tile were not leveled. It created some lippage the next day when I continued the installation. If you can't finish the job in one day, you might run into this.

I do worry a bit about tiny voids forming when the tiles are pulled level. If you're floor is a little off, I could see this happening. Because of that, I'd be uncomfortable using them in a garage.

 

[jkeyser14]

I just used a straight edge when installing tiles. Place it across the joint and make sure it doesn't rock.

 

[Arkive]

I do worry a bit about tiny voids forming when the tiles are pulled level. If you're floor is a little off, I could see this happening. Because of that, I'd be uncomfortable using them in a garage.

I've watched a few videos on this yesterday and if installed properly with sufficient thinset each new tile sits higher and is pulled down instead of the existing low tile being pulled up.

 

[Zippercat]

I’ve used the Home Depot QEP Lash clips and wedges on about 1/2 dozen different floors. Most were 12”x24” porcelain tile. I’ve not used any of the other leveling systems. Most of the floors I did were flat and nearly level but a couple were not.

I back buttered every tile and used a large formate tile thinset. I was able to adjust the tile with the wedges to end up with very flat floors. At first I was concerned about voids from the Lash wedges moving the tile so I pulled a few while installing to check. Never found a void. Between the back buttering and LFT thinset I believe the tiles were properly set.

Oldest floor is now about 4 years old. No issues with any of them so far.

 

[Arkive]

That's reassuring info. Thanks, Zipper.

 

[Dakota00]

These leveling systems work fine in applications where the floor is not subjected to abuse and extreme weight, ie: the kitchen and bathroom.
When it comes to the garage floor, I'm highly against the use of any leveling system.
The concern with these leveling systems is that they pull up on the neighboring tiles to get the floor flat, thus weakening the adhesion bond of the tile to the thinset. In doing so, this could make the outer edges of the tiles vulnerable to damage resulting from a sharp blow (a dropped wrench) or extreme weight focused on a tight foot print from a floor jack.

If a leveling system is a must to use. Please ensure that the grout is pushed and packed into the joints. This will help fill and give some support to the edges of the tiles where it's needed.

 

[lukedwag]

A lot of it has to so with the tiles. Better tiles are flatter which makes it easier. Also for larger formats the recommend for a 1/3 lap vs 1/2. This will get the lippage down some. I bought into the Rigid screw style leveling system and loved it for my kitchen and bathroom.

 

[Arkive]

Dakota,

I respect your opinion more than any other with regards to Porcelain, and I agree with the perceived potential for what you're saying, but have you seen examples of it? I've read a few random threads with similar concerns and I haven't yet seen someone come into the same threads and say their tile broke for that reason (and usually someone else comes into the thread and reassures them based on their 3+ year old floor).

Here's the clip I was talking about from a 30+ year tile installer that cuts right to the part about pulling tiles up. BLUF, if installed properly (according to him), high tiles are pulled down, not low tiles pulled up. From what I see this is largely dependent on consistent thinset usage and inserting the wedge from the high-tile side.

 

[Dakota00]

Arkive,

No I haven't seen any examples of tiles failing using a leveling system on a garage floor. To the best of my knowledge of all the tile installs that have been showcased in this forum, only 1-2 threads I recall used a leveling system.

Even if the leveling system is used in a "correct" manner, the high tile is not always pulled down. It works in a way of pulling or pushing on the tiles that give the least amount of resistance to eliminate the lippage.
Another thing to contend with if the substrate has high and low spots, these leveling systems follow those contours. Which is not acceptable, as the floor should be installed flat. In turn means a lot of prep work would have to be done prior to laying any tiles, ensuring the floor is as flat as possible and consistent usage of thinset would be a must for the leveling system to be effective.

In the end... I'm not here to stop you from using these systems, I'm just trying to provide some useful information. I wish you the best of luck on how you proceed with your floor.

 

[rayra]

OP, to my understanding all the clip systems come in two parts, the T-shaped base that sits on the floor under the edges of the tiles and some sort of tensioning attachment. The bases are fashioned so you literally knock the top half of them off, they're made with a thin or partially severed waist. You can literalyl walk around and kick them loose with your foot or a non-marring rubber mallet. The bottom parts of the 'system' are consumable. And why they are typically sold in separate Part 'A' and Part 'B' bags.


And the (search) term for what you are trying to prevent is 'lippage'.


There's a New York? tile guy on YouTube, Sal DiBlasi, who has many 'how to' vids and I think he's tried every clip system on the market.
https://www.youtube.com/user/saldibs

 

[inphx]

On my 24 x 24 " tiles i used "back butter" technique and when preparing adjacent tile i would use nylon packing straps cut to about 3" pieces to slide under last laid tile edge at corners - usually 2 to 4 stacked up as needed so the next tile could not be pressed lower than matching height. This worked out well to hide floor variances.

 

[Arkive]

Dakota,

In lieu of a leveling system what is the tried an true method for leveling in a situation like this then? Genuinely want to do this the best way possible. Is there an A-Z video? Thanks.

 

[rayra]

Learning the proper use of a notched trowel and consistency in application and in the mortar mix.
Starting with a smoothed floor that is flat / on plane. May take using a floor grinder and a skilled operator.
PRoperly and thoroughly applying your thinset / mortar to both floor and tile will give you the full support you need, especially for a garage application.

The leveling systems are very inexpensive. Pick one. I used the basic Zepp(?) system from Home Depot and it worked fine on some large format tiles. The key is properly positioning the inserts to keep all the tile on plane. Then as your tiling expands any irregularities in the floor should be compensated for via your mortar application.

 

[TomcoPDR]

I took the plunge and started doing (Porcelain tiles) to my 1,200 sqft this summer. And thanks Dakato00 for inspiring me (PM'ed him way back 5-6 years ago, but still nervous to do it)

Anyway, I spent the money on Ditra, there're a few other companies like Mapei (big thinset maker) that has their own uncoupling membrane, and many generic imitation out there too. But it was $1.60 Cdn/sqft when I buy the big rolls and a local flooring store will sell per sqft $1.75 Cdn/sqft at the end of my Ditra space.

I just love these recent years of large format tiles 24x24, ***** for a novice (first time) like me, but oh well, just took that plunge.

I used Perfect Level Master brand for wedge system 1/8" spacer/leveler. 300 pieces of 24x24, and I'm at around 275 pieces installed, every single piece I back butter (I used a round office chair stool as my tile spinner). However, reading up many tiling YouTube and forums. I think a better mindset over back butter is also call "Coverage", for me, in order to achieve this, is to dry test before laying thinset on the ground (for areas I may think isn't super flat, so visually I know which areas will need more thinset splattered onto), and of course, like the videos, is to audit your technique once in a while by completely lifting and checking the back of the tile; super pain in the *** for 24x24, of course commenting as a DIY newbie here only. And to wiggle to collapse those toweled rips.

How long will mine last? lol I guess we'll have to wait it out. Not going to heavy wrench in there though, just vehicles, tool cart, foot traffic.

In terms of the wedges, correct, the base part of the wedge product remains. However, based on watching videos of wedge systems (in general), the wedge base is suppose to be EMBEDDED within the thinset, so it hardens as a singular piece.

Whether a few pieces will crack or chip, I do have to say, just love team Porcelain (i.e. in your own garage, as if you're inside a car dealership). On top of that, as much as 24x24 is killing me. I can't go to 12x24 for my next garage flooring project. (I might however, just pay a professional doing 24x48; of course that's if they'll recommend that large for automotive related, but definitely 24x24 if I can)

 

[Dakota00]

Dakota,

In lieu of a leveling system what is the tried an true method for leveling in a situation like this then? Genuinely want to do this the best way possible. Is there an A-Z video? Thanks.

Arkive,

To add on the points that rayra provided, getting your substrate as flat as possible is very important prior to tiling. But realistically, videos and knowledge will only take you so far. Without the experience and technique that comes over time in mastering. It's very hard for an inexperience person to achieve the same level of quality as a professional.
That's why these "cheater" leveling systems are so popular.

For what it's worth, have a look at this video of the correct technique for setting tiles.

Tom,
Your floor is looking great, beautiful choice of tile!