CNC vs Manual Machine Tools - Puzzled

[HoosierBuddy]

So,

I keep seeing area high schools that are getting STEM grants and using them to buy machine tools. FANTASTIC! But, they are all buying small CNC machines and I just don't get it.

Typically the school's Technology Guru is the one interviewed for the newspaper story, and they all tout how it will be great to be able to make parts for the school's Robot team, rather than have to buy them.

What I don't understand is how a CNC machine is BETTER at making a one-off part for a robot compared to a manual machine. It seems to me that the kids would learn MORE with a manual machine than a CNC machine anyway. I look into my crystal ball and I see one of two scenarios:

1. The machine sits idle because no one knows how to use it and the learning curve is steep enough that the technology guru that ordered it simply throws up his hands and says "forget it".

2. The Tech Guru, or the Shop Teacher (if they still have one) does learn how to use the machine, but he or she is the only person in the high school that ever knows how to use it. Eventually that person gets a new job or reassigned and we revert to 1. above.

I've taught all 3 of my kids how to run a manual milling machine and lathe and I don't see how they possibly could have learned more than they did if we would have started with a CNC machine. I also don't see how CNC is helpful for one-off parts.

Rant over.

Phil

 

[larry_g]

If we are to prepare today's kids for a job then they have to be able to program and operate a CNC machine. It's not the size of the part they are making but the process in making it. We teach them logical thinking and get them in the mindset to operate with a computer interface. Teach them how to CAD draw the part and then convert that to a CNC program.

Along the same lines of not teaching then mechanical drafting with a pencil and a board.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[davethorik]

Have you ever worked in a production shop?

Knowing how to code and write programs is an essential skill at, guessing 85% of machine shop jobs nowadays. Usually machinist job interviews start with, how much cnc experience do you have? Not only that, but anything decent paying requires at least a couple years. Learning this in high school would give these kids a leg up on the competition.

Hell, the last shop I worked at, the programmer got hired at a starting salary of $70k directly from working in an Apple retail store, with 0 machine shop experience, but was good at "computer stuff." Yeah, there was a learning curve, but he got the hang of it eventually.

Of course, I personally went the more conventional route...started as a benchman/delivery truck driver, shipping & receiving, manual grinding machines, manual lathe/mill, then cnc. But that type of advancement doesn't suit the younger generation....they've grown up on a computer, learned to drive and shoot guns on a gaming console, and have always had a phone or tablet in their hand. Most of them have never touched a tool of any kind. It's not such a stretch to see them learning cnc first, it is a lot like a video game.

Manual machines will never go extinct as there will always be a niche for them for certain tasks, and it also depends on what sort of things the shop makes. With infrequent use, it would be a lot easier to train a cnc machinist to run a manual machine on the job. How often do you hear about a local machine shop buying a new $200k manual milling machine? Not very.

 

[mowkep]

I started fresh 30 years ago. I learned machining first and programming later. NC nontheless. We are a job shop and I run plenty of jobs of very small quantities, usually under 5 pieces. I prefer it. Keeps things fresh and days go by fast. I run two vertical CNC mills now.

 

[Gogo300]

Probably a safety issue also. Most cnc machines need to operate with the doors closed, safety mats or laser barriers. Manual machines have the head or part just spinning out in the air. With today’s kids they don’t think twice about reaching and grabbing the spindle, throwing something at the spinning part or leaving tools on or near the work surface.

 

[Dave455]

My feeling is that you need both.

Start off using a manual machine to get a feel for what you are trying to do, and yes, it's the best way to produce one off parts. After that it's really useful to have some CNC programming skills. It's what most firms lack, though that may change!

I think the situation the o.p. describes is exactly what happens, but the solution is to get kids machining manually first, then move on so you cover both.

An important skill, in this ever changing world, is learning which level of technology is best for the job. One friend ******* his incredibly expensive Matsuura machine drilling a load of holes. It did the job, but it could have been done quicker, and better, using a simple drilling jig!

A friend in the engineering industry was just discussing this. He was telling me that one of the North of England universities (might have been Sheffield) is offering a short course that teaches measuring and marking out, use of hand tools, some drilling, turning and milling, and the basics of CNC. Apparently the kids are walking straight into decent jobs. Who'd have thought it!!!

 

[4 FN 27]

Here is how I see...and live it 24-7.

My brother and I own a Sheet Metal Fabrication Shop with the most up to date technology on the production floor. 2 Fiber Lasers, 4 CO2 lasers, 5 Mechanical Turrets, 2 Hydraulic Turrets and 24 Press Brakes with varying levels of CNC Back Gages and have 2 ATC (Automatic Tool Change) Press Brakes coming in next month. And 1 CNC Machining Center. All CNC machines.

The days of guys having to read code or write code, I am talking M&G Code are gone. Knowing everything about DOS, Windows, computer programming are pretty much worthless skills or knowledge to run CNC equipment.

Knowing how to create and manipulate a Solid Model to make it acceptable to hand off to a CNC Programmer and have him assign the tool paths and post a program for an operator to up load into a CNC to run is what is needed just to run the basic 1st part off the machine.

We run 8 seats of Solidworks, 3 Seats Pro Engineer, 12 Seats Cadkey, 12 Seats Fabriwin, 2 Seats Master Cam and misc other CNC or Inspection related softwares. These are all "canned" programs used to accomplish different tasks in the Engineer for Shop (Manufacturing) Process. Not one of my guys can tell you how the program within the program works but they can do amazing things with the "Canned" Software with the right Model/data from the guy in front of them.

All of these "Tools" have dumbed down the process. You don't have to know how to read the Code to make a part but it certainly helps to trouble shoot a problem or make an at the machine adjustment...and operator can learn that over time if they apply themselves.

Our investment of spending $1.1 million on 2 ATC Press Brakes is simple...there is no one and I mean no one coming up the ranks to set-up a 25+ hit part in a 6 axis Press Brake...no one. Thus now I can take a seasoned veteran and use his skill set to do off line programming from a cleaned up solid model and he can out put a Program and Tool Set-up for an operator. The operator can then scan the bar code on the work order packet hit the start button and 2 minutes later the set-up is done and he is running a first part. And the first part is right.

This process, tested at the Manufacturers facility in Chicago on our parts while we watched and had our programmers, set-ups and operators right there worked. What took in our shop 3-4 hours using our latest technologically advanced CNC Brakes only took 5 minutes to have an approved first part.

This is why we need this in schools...we need anything to promote manufacturing in any capacity. I figure of every 1000 kids that go to through the program maybe 1 or 2 will seek a career in manufacturing as and operator and .001 will seek a career as CNC Programmer or Set-up. And this is going to continue until we quit brainwashing kids that they need to have a college degree. Our pay ranges from $15-30+ an hour depending on your skill set and this is only going to increase over the next few years as there is a **** load of people my age that are going to leave the CNC game all within a very short period of time. All that knowledge is going to be gone and we are going to have to pay big big bucks to get the best of the best in here. The downside is the higher manufacturing costs make China and other 3rd world countries look very attractive (I call them the Harbor Freight and Walmart of Manufacturing).

In a perfect world I would like to see the educators putting these programs together do some of the old school machining, the manual stuff to help a future prospect CNC Operator, Programmer, Set-up knows the difference between Conventional and Climb Milling...at least the basics.

Drafting on a Table, hand lettering all leads to drafting etiquette which is fundamental to conveying and idea through a print. Totally missing from todays Engineering. Some of this just to drive the point needs to be in the education system.

We have 6-8 openings right now and have a had them for quite sometime since we are growing fast (we have on-boarded many in the last 2 years). Our supply of operators and set-ups has not kept pace with our growth. We are limited by people. I can have machines tomorrow. And it is not the pay it is a lack of people seeing it as a good career path.

Right now we have only 1 person, 1 in 10 years that took us up on a career path job. He came to us with a 2 year degree in Manufacturing with a focus on CNC and Solidworks. He is spending 5 years in the shop, 3-6 months in each department just to learn what you cannot see from a programmers desk. He is making an investment and is no dummy...I can see where he will be heading for a 6 digit income if he plays his cards right and soaks it up and applies it later.

I could write forever on this subject...my prediction is in 10-15 years if you are not automated there will be nobody left to do it...in the CNC world.

 

[tdkkart]

A person needs to know the fundamentals of machining before they can do a decent job of programming and running a CNC machine.
I work in the industry and can tell you that MANY of our machining problems are caused by programmers that don't know how the machines operate, OR how they cut material.

That, and engineers that spec machine screw clearance hole diameters at +/- .0005 for no reason other than having too many zeros on their calculator.

 

[gte718p]

We run 8 seats of Solidworks, 3 Seats Pro Engineer, 12 Seats Cadkey, 12 Seats Fabriwin, 2 Seats Master Cam and misc other CNC or Inspection related softwares. These are all "canned" programs used to accomplish different tasks in the Engineer for Shop (Manufacturing) Process. Not one of my guys can tell you how the program within the program works but they can do amazing things with the "Canned" Software with the right Model/data from the guy in front of them.


This is why we need this in schools...we need anything to promote manufacturing in any capacity. I figure of every 1000 kids that go to through the program maybe 1 or 2 will seek a career in manufacturing as and operator and .001 will seek a career as CNC Programmer or Set-up. And this is going to continue until we quit brainwashing kids that they need to have a college degree. Our pay ranges from $15-30+ an hour depending on your skill set and this is only going to increase over the next few years as there is a **** load of people my age that are going to leave the CNC game all within a very short period of time. All that knowledge is going to be gone and we are going to have to pay big big bucks to get the best of the best in here. The downside is the higher manufacturing costs make China and other 3rd world countries look very attractive (I call them the Harbor Freight and Walmart of Manufacturing).

The college bashing thing has gotten a little out of hand recently.

The reason you go to college is to understand what is going on behind the scenes in those canned programs. It makes you a much better user and not tied to one tool. I switch between PRO-E, NX, Solid Edge, Solid Edge and Fusion 360 almost seamlessly.

Learning to use a tool and being a $15 dollar an hour drafter monkey is fine. I'm actually employing two of them right now. I personally think is much better to go to college, understand the tool, and be a $75-$100 an hour engineer. I don't work in manufacturing, though I have the degrees and certs to. You would be amazed at what I have been offered to jump from .gov to the private sector.

Most of my friends and the people I graduated with are in manufacturing. I know people at Ford, Boeing, Raytheon and BMW. There is good money in CNC setup and major manufactures can't find competent people. However, it does require a degree. The canned programs all have issues, strengths, and weakness. Understanding how they work is important to working with and around the program.

 

[rsanter]

Draw it up in cad and the CNC can make very complex curves and other shapes that would require elaborate setup on a manual machine.
I think their shop should have both. And to use the CNC stuff they need to teach it to the kids so they can use it

 

[HanShotFirst]

Here is how I see...and live it 24-7.

My brother and I own a Sheet Metal Fabrication Shop with the most up to date technology on the production floor. 2 Fiber Lasers, 4 CO2 lasers, 5 Mechanical Turrets, 2 Hydraulic Turrets and 24 Press Brakes with varying levels of CNC Back Gages and have 2 ATC (Automatic Tool Change) Press Brakes coming in next month. And 1 CNC Machining Center. All CNC machines.

The days of guys having to read code or write code, I am talking M&G Code are gone. Knowing everything about DOS, Windows, computer programming are pretty much worthless skills or knowledge to run CNC equipment.

Knowing how to create and manipulate a Solid Model to make it acceptable to hand off to a CNC Programmer and have him assign the tool paths and post a program for an operator to up load into a CNC to run is what is needed just to run the basic 1st part off the machine.

We run 8 seats of Solidworks, 3 Seats Pro Engineer, 12 Seats Cadkey, 12 Seats Fabriwin, 2 Seats Master Cam and misc other CNC or Inspection related softwares. These are all "canned" programs used to accomplish different tasks in the Engineer for Shop (Manufacturing) Process. Not one of my guys can tell you how the program within the program works but they can do amazing things with the "Canned" Software with the right Model/data from the guy in front of them.

All of these "Tools" have dumbed down the process. You don't have to know how to read the Code to make a part but it certainly helps to trouble shoot a problem or make an at the machine adjustment...and operator can learn that over time if they apply themselves.

Our investment of spending $1.1 million on 2 ATC Press Brakes is simple...there is no one and I mean no one coming up the ranks to set-up a 25+ hit part in a 6 axis Press Brake...no one. Thus now I can take a seasoned veteran and use his skill set to do off line programming from a cleaned up solid model and he can out put a Program and Tool Set-up for an operator. The operator can then scan the bar code on the work order packet hit the start button and 2 minutes later the set-up is done and he is running a first part. And the first part is right.

This process, tested at the Manufacturers facility in Chicago on our parts while we watched and had our programmers, set-ups and operators right there worked. What took in our shop 3-4 hours using our latest technologically advanced CNC Brakes only took 5 minutes to have an approved first part.

This is why we need this in schools...we need anything to promote manufacturing in any capacity. I figure of every 1000 kids that go to through the program maybe 1 or 2 will seek a career in manufacturing as and operator and .001 will seek a career as CNC Programmer or Set-up. And this is going to continue until we quit brainwashing kids that they need to have a college degree. Our pay ranges from $15-30+ an hour depending on your skill set and this is only going to increase over the next few years as there is a **** load of people my age that are going to leave the CNC game all within a very short period of time. All that knowledge is going to be gone and we are going to have to pay big big bucks to get the best of the best in here. The downside is the higher manufacturing costs make China and other 3rd world countries look very attractive (I call them the Harbor Freight and Walmart of Manufacturing).

In a perfect world I would like to see the educators putting these programs together do some of the old school machining, the manual stuff to help a future prospect CNC Operator, Programmer, Set-up knows the difference between Conventional and Climb Milling...at least the basics.

Drafting on a Table, hand lettering all leads to drafting etiquette which is fundamental to conveying and idea through a print. Totally missing from todays Engineering. Some of this just to drive the point needs to be in the education system.

We have 6-8 openings right now and have a had them for quite sometime since we are growing fast (we have on-boarded many in the last 2 years). Our supply of operators and set-ups has not kept pace with our growth. We are limited by people. I can have machines tomorrow. And it is not the pay it is a lack of people seeing it as a good career path.

Right now we have only 1 person, 1 in 10 years that took us up on a career path job. He came to us with a 2 year degree in Manufacturing with a focus on CNC and Solidworks. He is spending 5 years in the shop, 3-6 months in each department just to learn what you cannot see from a programmers desk. He is making an investment and is no dummy...I can see where he will be heading for a 6 digit income if he plays his cards right and soaks it up and applies it later.

I could write forever on this subject...my prediction is in 10-15 years if you are not automated there will be nobody left to do it...in the CNC world.

That's an awesome post. My background is in manual machining which is the best way to go (for the most part) for what I do (gunsmith). But even gunsmithing is getting more and more automated these days, and guys are doing some really neat stuff with their CNC's (and some really hideous stuff too).

To my way of thinking, some background in machine basics is always needed to understand tool speeds & feeds. But in actual manufacturing, the days of guys standing in front of a Bridgeport are long gone.

I'm wrapping up my gunsmithing business, so I'm not going down that road.

But if I were going to expand to accomodate some of the new ITAR regulations and continue putting up with the government, I would be investing heavily in CNC.

I took a couple of classes in Solidworks (which is freaking awesome!), and a few years back messed with G Code a little. But I'd be tripling down on that (especially the G Code) and buying CNC like crazy if I were staying in it.

The future is squarely in programming and 3 D modeling.

Unfortunately our local JC which has a machinist course, requires you take a full year of manual machining before you can even start the CNC stuff. While I think that's great for someone seeking a 2 year degree as a machinist, I think it's a disservice to those who are looking at CNC only... And like you, area manufacturers are HUNGRY for qualified CNC guys. Unfortunately, most starting pay is under $20 an hour around these parts, so there aren't many willing to put in the time for that kind of pay. That was decent pay for a Journeyman 25 years ago, but not real impressive in today's world. There are LOTS of $20 an hour jobs out there that don't require specialized skills.

 

[bob15]

Here is how I see...and live it 24-7.

My brother and I own a Sheet Metal Fabrication Shop with the most up to date technology on the production floor. 2 Fiber Lasers, 4 CO2 lasers, 5 Mechanical Turrets, 2 Hydraulic Turrets and 24 Press Brakes with varying levels of CNC Back Gages and have 2 ATC (Automatic Tool Change) Press Brakes coming in next month. And 1 CNC Machining Center. All CNC machines.

The days of guys having to read code or write code, I am talking M&G Code are gone. Knowing everything about DOS, Windows, computer programming are pretty much worthless skills or knowledge to run CNC equipment.

Knowing how to create and manipulate a Solid Model to make it acceptable to hand off to a CNC Programmer and have him assign the tool paths and post a program for an operator to up load into a CNC to run is what is needed just to run the basic 1st part off the machine.

We run 8 seats of Solidworks, 3 Seats Pro Engineer, 12 Seats Cadkey, 12 Seats Fabriwin, 2 Seats Master Cam and misc other CNC or Inspection related softwares. These are all "canned" programs used to accomplish different tasks in the Engineer for Shop (Manufacturing) Process. Not one of my guys can tell you how the program within the program works but they can do amazing things with the "Canned" Software with the right Model/data from the guy in front of them.

All of these "Tools" have dumbed down the process. You don't have to know how to read the Code to make a part but it certainly helps to trouble shoot a problem or make an at the machine adjustment...and operator can learn that over time if they apply themselves.

Our investment of spending $1.1 million on 2 ATC Press Brakes is simple...there is no one and I mean no one coming up the ranks to set-up a 25+ hit part in a 6 axis Press Brake...no one. Thus now I can take a seasoned veteran and use his skill set to do off line programming from a cleaned up solid model and he can out put a Program and Tool Set-up for an operator. The operator can then scan the bar code on the work order packet hit the start button and 2 minutes later the set-up is done and he is running a first part. And the first part is right.

This process, tested at the Manufacturers facility in Chicago on our parts while we watched and had our programmers, set-ups and operators right there worked. What took in our shop 3-4 hours using our latest technologically advanced CNC Brakes only took 5 minutes to have an approved first part.

This is why we need this in schools...we need anything to promote manufacturing in any capacity. I figure of every 1000 kids that go to through the program maybe 1 or 2 will seek a career in manufacturing as and operator and .001 will seek a career as CNC Programmer or Set-up. And this is going to continue until we quit brainwashing kids that they need to have a college degree. Our pay ranges from $15-30+ an hour depending on your skill set and this is only going to increase over the next few years as there is a **** load of people my age that are going to leave the CNC game all within a very short period of time. All that knowledge is going to be gone and we are going to have to pay big big bucks to get the best of the best in here. The downside is the higher manufacturing costs make China and other 3rd world countries look very attractive (I call them the Harbor Freight and Walmart of Manufacturing).

In a perfect world I would like to see the educators putting these programs together do some of the old school machining, the manual stuff to help a future prospect CNC Operator, Programmer, Set-up knows the difference between Conventional and Climb Milling...at least the basics.

Drafting on a Table, hand lettering all leads to drafting etiquette which is fundamental to conveying and idea through a print. Totally missing from todays Engineering. Some of this just to drive the point needs to be in the education system.

We have 6-8 openings right now and have a had them for quite sometime since we are growing fast (we have on-boarded many in the last 2 years). Our supply of operators and set-ups has not kept pace with our growth. We are limited by people. I can have machines tomorrow. And it is not the pay it is a lack of people seeing it as a good career path.

Right now we have only 1 person, 1 in 10 years that took us up on a career path job. He came to us with a 2 year degree in Manufacturing with a focus on CNC and Solidworks. He is spending 5 years in the shop, 3-6 months in each department just to learn what you cannot see from a programmers desk. He is making an investment and is no dummy...I can see where he will be heading for a 6 digit income if he plays his cards right and soaks it up and applies it later.

I could write forever on this subject...my prediction is in 10-15 years if you are not automated there will be nobody left to do it...in the CNC world.

I agree, but there will still be a need for toolmakers using Bridgeports, lathes, surface finishers and jig grinders.

I think learning to use both manual and CNC (not to mention NC & EDM) machines is important.

 

[MShaw]

I started in manufacturing engineering over 50 years ago when numerical control was in it's infancy and stayed with it up to a large shop that ran five axis cnc machines with probing and all the latest bells and whistles. I graduated college and served a toolrom machinist apprenticeship before entering as a process engineer. I finished off consulting to a major university for 1 1/2 years. They had master's degrees in the theoretical side of manufacturing but needed someone that understood dimensioning, tolerancing and producibility concepts. Being a certified manufacturing engineer in material removal (machining) and and senior level certified in geometric dimensioning and tolerancing enabled me to relate the academic theory to the hands on making parts in the most economical way. In short, as said above, you need the cnc guru as well as someone who knows the dynamics of machining a part.

 

[American Locomotive]

CNC machines are really not that complicated to use, even ones that use M&G codes. Modern CAD/CAM software can often automatically generate all the necessary tool paths and code necessary to make the part. Furthermore, most lower-end machines that you'd see in a school environment will be brands like Haas, Milltronics and Tormach. All these machines have really friendly and easy to use conversational control systems that allow you to rapidly build programs right from the machine's control. This gives you the same kind of freedom to quickly make one-off parts like you would in a traditional manual lathe or mill.

Additionally, It doesn't matter if you have a human or a robot turning the knobs on a mill or lathe. They still subscribe to the same "feeds and speeds" limitations. A good CNC operator and programmer is going to know how metal responds just as well as any manual machine tool operator.

That being said, manual machines definitely still have their place. But if you know the basics of cutting metal on CNC, running a manual machine (especially one with a DRO) isn't all that difficult.

The days of guys having to read code or write code, I am talking M&G Code are gone. Knowing everything about DOS, Windows, computer programming are pretty much worthless skills or knowledge to run CNC equipment.

Knowing how to create and manipulate a Solid Model to make it acceptable to hand off to a CNC Programmer and have him assign the tool paths and post a program for an operator to up load into a CNC to run is what is needed just to run the basic 1st part off the machine.

We run many modern machine tools at our plant, including 8-spindle CNC lathes with over 60 servo driven axes and a whole army of more traditional swiss-style lathes.

Some of our best operators are the ones that have tons of M&G code experience. Yeah conversational controls are nice, but sometimes you just need to tell the machine exactly what to do, or make quick adjustments to the program, and the easiest way to do that is to write a few lines of code right on the machine. Yeah, we have some operators that just load code handed to them and push "Cycle Start", but our best ones can write code and understand how the machine interacts with that code.

However, our most valuable operators are ones with advanced degrees in mechanical engineering or mechatronics. These guys really understand everything that goes on behind the scenes with these machines, and they're invaluable when you're tooling up for a difficult part, troubleshooting machine issues or trying to shave seconds off cycle times.

 

[4 FN 27]

The college bashing thing has gotten a little out of hand recently.

The reason you go to college is to understand what is going on behind the scenes in those canned programs. It makes you a much better user and not tied to one tool. I switch between PRO-E, NX, Solid Edge, Solid Edge and Fusion 360 almost seamlessly.

Learning to use a tool and being a $15 dollar an hour drafter monkey is fine. I'm actually employing two of them right now. I personally think is much better to go to college, understand the tool, and be a $75-$100 an hour engineer. I don't work in manufacturing, though I have the degrees and certs to. You would be amazed at what I have been offered to jump from .gov to the private sector.

Most of my friends and the people I graduated with are in manufacturing. I know people at Ford, Boeing, Raytheon and BMW. There is good money in CNC setup and major manufactures can't find competent people. However, it does require a degree. The canned programs all have issues, strengths, and weakness. Understanding how they work is important to working with and around the program.

You make some very good points but becoming an Engineer or becoming a Operator, Set-Up or Programmer of CNC Equipment are 2 separate and distinct career paths.

Find me an ME that will work for a competitive market average salary as an operator and I will hire him on the spot without an interview.

In the private sector we have limited funds and have to survive by being competitive. I can not demand more money to build the utopian shop and if the customer doesn't pay threaten them with Federal Prison time. Also I am in a global competition market...can't say that about ".gov". It is dog eats dog not dog eats cake. No offense but it is a whole different ballgame when it is your skin in the game.

We are not Ford, Boeing, Raytheon and BMW...we are a 94 man fabrication job shop competing on a global scale. Hands on manufacturing. In the grind of it everyday. Don't get me wrong I picked my poison. We have to remain competitive to survive. Not that Ford, Boeing, Raytheon and BMW don't but it is not even close to the same game.

We work for Blue Chips that can assign an entire engineering team to a $500 problem for 6 months and then turn around and demand a 7% per year cost reduction from us or move the work. This is just reality and we keep plowing the road.

CNC machines are really not that complicated to use, even ones that use M&G codes. Modern CAD/CAM software can often automatically generate all the necessary tool paths and code necessary to make the part. Furthermore, most lower-end machines that you'd see in a school environment will be brands like Haas, Milltronics and Tormach. All these machines have really friendly and easy to use conversational control systems that allow you to rapidly build programs right from the machine's control. This gives you the same kind of freedom to quickly make one-off parts like you would in a traditional manual lathe or mill.

Additionally, It doesn't matter if you have a human or a robot turning the knobs on a mill or lathe. They still subscribe to the same "feeds and speeds" limitations. A good CNC operator and programmer is going to know how metal responds just as well as any manual machine tool operator.

That being said, manual machines definitely still have their place. But if you know the basics of cutting metal on CNC, running a manual machine (especially one with a DRO) isn't all that difficult.


We run many modern machine tools at our plant, including 8-spindle CNC lathes with over 60 servo driven axes and a whole army of more traditional swiss-style lathes.

Some of our best operators are the ones that have tons of M&G code experience. Yeah conversational controls are nice, but sometimes you just need to tell the machine exactly what to do, or make quick adjustments to the program, and the easiest way to do that is to write a few lines of code right on the machine. Yeah, we have some operators that just load code handed to them and push "Cycle Start", but our best ones can write code and understand how the machine interacts with that code.

However, our most valuable operators are ones with advanced degrees in mechanical engineering or mechatronics. These guys really understand everything that goes on behind the scenes with these machines, and they're invaluable when you're tooling up for a difficult part, troubleshooting machine issues or trying to shave seconds off cycle times.

My point is the guys that understand M & G code are going away. Thus we have to come up with solutions to combat this issue. It is a tremendous strength to understand M & G code but we live and work in an era where that program better be right when it hits the machine. Yes a cutter comp may have to be adjusted, an offset or a feed rate but if my guys are reprogramming at the machine and hand typing code I have serious work to do in my Programming department. The bar is set at having the first part be an acceptable part...and we strive to do that and on the punch and laser side we are above 99%. All of our programmers are former Set-ups or Operators thus the success. We have some work to do on the CNC Machining Center but that has only been in play for 12 months now. And they are on a continuous improvement program and it is working. As the old saying goes "You'll be surprise how smart that new machine gets after 6 months".

I sincerely miss all the old timers who taught me what I know. I have very few walking through our doors that I can pass that knowledge onto. they really don't exist like they did 30 years ago.

 

[4 FN 27]

I agree, but there will still be a need for toolmakers using Bridgeports, lathes, surface finishers and jig grinders.

I think learning to use both manual and CNC (not to mention NC & EDM) machines is important.

I 100% agree but that is not reality.

The reality is the schools are focusing on CNC and Robotics. That's it...but it is a start. It is the hand of cards we have to play right now. I would love to see a new Bridgeport in a school but that is not going to happen for 2 reasons:

1. Bridgeport, they are owned by Hardinge, you might get Chinese knockoff. That is a the easy one.
2. You cannot load and app on your phone for a Knee Mill. That will kill any request for funding at any school board.

I gave up on our local school board.

 

[tdkkart]

Find me an ME that will work for a competitive market average salary as an operator and I will hire him on the spot without an interview.

Please do hire him and make him be an operator for a couple years before you let him engineer anything. Hopefully you'll end up with an engineer that realizes that just because the machine says CNC on the side it's not a miracle worker, and that going from +/-.008 to +/-.001 is a HUGE step and throws big problems into being able to produce parts economically.

In the end, you'll save yourself some money. The shop that I work in is going away in the next year, and over engineering is a large part of the reason.

 

[gte718p]

You make some very good points but becoming an Engineer or becoming a Operator, Set-Up or Programmer of CNC Equipment are 2 separate and distinct career paths.

Yes, no, and maybe. Operators are going the way of the lamp lighter. If you you think that you are going to make a good living picking up part A, insert into machine, pushing button B, remove part, stack, repeat you are sorely mistaken. That skill set requires a trained monkey, and you are going to be paid accordingly.

Setup and CNC programing on the other hand are the future of manufacturing. More and more the expectation is you are going to have a degree. Not understanding how what is going on behind the scene on setup of some of these machines can easily lead to $100k to million dollar+ mistakes.

My best friend works in the BMW supply chain in SC. He is a materials engineer, but specializes in setup of injection molding machines. His simplest machine has 60 servos and over 200 sensors. 10 years ago his plant had 200 operators, now they run it with 15. Finding reliable labor is difficult and getting expensive so they are looking to automate the last process. They are also desperately looking for people who can do setup. Starting salary are 60K out of college and 100k with 7-10 years experience. No degree, don't bother to apply.

My brother in law tells the same stories about the plant he works at.

 

[American Locomotive]

Yes, no, and maybe. Operators are going the way of the lamp lighter. If you you think that you are going to make a good living picking up part A, insert into machine, pushing button B, remove part, stack, repeat you are sorely mistaken. That skill set requires a trained monkey, and you are going to be paid accordingly.

That's not being an operator. That's mindlessly pushing buttons. I've never been in a facility where that's what an operator does. Although the injection molding world may be different than the CNC machining world in that aspect.

So many people seem to think you can just design a part in CAD, send the file to a machine, and it will immediately start cranking out tens of thousands of good parts without a problem. That can't be further from the truth. Our operators do so much more than just press "start". They're constantly checking parts for quality, doing lots of precision measurements and adjusting the machine feed rates, spindle speeds, tool offsets, etc... We have a few operators who will spend hours with their hand on the feed rate override knob, watching the machine, getting the feed rates absolutely dialed in to ensure perfect surface finishes.

It shows too. We can have a part with a +/-0.003" spec tolerance and one operator will consistently have every single part the machine cranks out within +/- 0.0005". Then we have a shift change, and another operator running the same machine making the same part will be making parts that are all over the place, and just barely staying within tolerance.

It's not like we're running some clapped out bridgeports either. They're top of the line machines, not more than a few years old that cost more than I'm likely to make in a lifetime. But metal heats up, dimensions change, tools and material deflect, cutting edges wear down, the cutting oil might change viscosity as it gets older, and the raw stock may not be as consistent as we hope. The machines can compensate for some things like tool wear and temperature changes, but the other stuff it really can't.

 

[gte718p]

That's not being an operator. That's mindlessly pushing buttons. I've never been in a facility where that's what an operator does. Although the injection molding world may be different than the CNC machining world in that aspect.

Even though I work for the government, I still do consulting. I've been to lots of factories there that is what an operator does. I understand your point about the quality of a person making a difference in the final product. There is still a market for that middle of the road machinist who understands basic metrology and setup. Not everyone is fully automated. There will be for a market for those skills for a while, but it is a dying art. Going into that field has a lot of risk as a kid. Those jobs are going to get fewer and fewer.

The last machine I consulted on was for an aerospace machining company. Actually a relatively small shop outside of San Diego. The machine (three mills and two actuator arms actually) did 42 operations in 6 setups. Each machine had CMM probe in to verify the part was were it expected it and in tolerance from the last step. A human never touched the part from square block of aluminum to final product. That is the future.

On the other hand, and back to the original topic of the thread, get a kid interested in CNC work in high school, send them off, to college get a systems, mechanical, or industrial engineering degree and you have given them a great paying career with a future.

If that is not your path, the maintenance of all this equipment is a great job field. However, most people want at least an associates before turning you loose on their 10 million dollar machine.

 

[Aaron_W]

Do the CNC machines not have a manual option available? My only experience is with Sherlines and their CNC ready machines come with hand wheels for manual operation.



The point made about safety is also a good one. Maybe high school isn't the place to teach machining to every kid who ends up in the class. Pretty hard to get hurt running a computer regardless of how stupid you are (although I'm sure some manage it).


It is a shame that we are losing shop classes, I got a lot out of them when I was in school.

I also remember a lot of close calls from kids screwing around or just plain being inattentive. While there were not any life altering injuries in my classes, I'm sure there have been more than a few. I had "Industrial Education" a general shop class covering wood and metal working when I was in the 7th grade. That would have made me 12, 13? I certainly wouldn't want to be responsible for a class of 30-40 13 year old kids with access to tables saws, drill presses, and welding equipment. The school had some great shops too as the race to eliminate shop classes had only just begun in the early 80s. By the time I graduated high school shop classes were beginning to be whittled away.

I can remember being asked to change the table saw blade for one of the teachers in another class (apparently she didn't know how ???). I still remember asking if the breaker was off as I had been taught, being told yes, but checking anyway, also as I had been taught, verify with your own eyes and finding that no, in fact it was still hot.

That was 8th grade. I was a pretty reliable kid, but I can't even imagine an adult asking a 14 year old kid to do something like that today.

 

[William Payne]

I work in a tool and die shop. We do both manual machining and cnc. Everything done manually could easily be done on cnc, it is just often more convenient to do manually.

I don't know about the college degree thing. I just started working there for free 7 years ago and never left. But besides being a part changer and button pusher I don't have much to do with the cnc side. We have a couple of guys who do the cnc stuff. Both are older guys who learnt cnc back in the old days and stuck with it.

Machining is really just knowing how the material is going to react to your action.

If I was starting a machining business today I would definitely go at least half if not more CNC.

 

[bradleykd]

I don't really know anything about the drafting software and converting it all to code for the CNC machine to run, but I know plenty about M and G code CNC programming. I work on CNC equipment every day as a maintenance tech, so I use it to fix quality problems and make cut path changes, change sequences, etc.

I think if you learn on CNC, by writing code, you still learn a lot about machining. You have to understand feedrates and tool choices and sequences. I've never had formal training on machining or CNC code, but I can do both really well. I learned the CNC side first and transfered that knowledge to manual machines.

 

[slackdaddy1]

Not sure what the problem is??
When I paid for a 6 month membership at "Tech Shop" for my 15 year old son, he quickly found out 75% of the equipment he wanted to use was "CNC" as you call it, or in reality they are "Vector base drawing controlled"
He paid for a monthly student license for Adobe illustrator on our home computer and taught him self how to "draw" with it.
He used that with the Laser cutter/etcher, the vinyl cutter, the Water jet, etc.
There is no dumbing down as is suggested,, You have to visualize your final product, break it down into pieces in your mind, draw them out, set up the machine/material, run the cut, finish your piece, assemble the product and debug, redo, etc.
Vector drawing programs and CNC machines are but a tool.
I am not seeing the problem??

 

[Bob-B]

To the OP: It's about freaking time! Some background 1st. I learned machining back in the early '70s on the same types of manual machines my dad learned the tool & die trade on in the 1930's. I moved to CNC and CAD ( I'm a mechanical engineer by day, machinist by night) as it became used more and more in industry, beginning in the '80s. The problem as I see it is that the public school system (at least my district) did not react to industry's rapidly changing needs. Instead of keeping up with the times, they allowed the machining/drafting programs to languish and fade away. Consequently students who may have had inclination to go in that direction upon graduation were instead herded in to the "college for everyone" path. I don't mean to piss off anyone in the educational system, however I will add that both my teacher wife and high school teacher daughter will strongly agree with me on this. Our district, where they teach, is only now "getting with the program". Our youngest son is also a mechanical engineer and if not for a CAD system at home and a machine shop in the garage, albeit all manual, he would have NEVER had any exposure to this before starting college. He's out of high school 6 years, and now they are promoting STEM programs. It's about time my district awoke from their coma.

 

[bigdav160]

Funny to hear people complain about schools not doing their job. Working in higher education myself, I can see first hand how easy it is to fall behind in technology, machinery and best practices.

Teachers "teach" what they know. Administrators are at the mercy of sales people and hucksters (Industry "focus groups"). They have to make decisions with limited budgets and competing programs. ****-ups and squeaky wheels tend to rule.

If you want a competent workforce, employers, small business and industry leaders all need to be actively involved in their schools advisory councils.

I will also say $15-$30 an hour doesn't cut it in my area.

 

[slackdaddy1]

I am self employed, blue collar, glorified handyman,,,
I am not getting out of bed for 15-30 hr.

I will also say $15-$30 an hour doesn't cut it in my area.

 

[4 FN 27]

I'll start this by saying with respect you are comparing Apples to Canned Tuna...

Yes, no, and maybe. Operators are going the way of the lamp lighter. If you you think that you are going to make a good living picking up part A, insert into machine, pushing button B, remove part, stack, repeat you are sorely mistaken. That skill set requires a trained monkey, and you are going to be paid accordingly.

Maybe in the arena you play in. However in our little niche of the fabrication job shop world that is far from true. I have highly trained Operators, making good money for their skill set and honestly a Monkey would be incapable of completing the task of forming a Chassis for a Server Blade in a Press Brake. If you are going to argue why the Monkey would be qualified my appreciation for your opinion or view on the matter will go down hill fast. Real fast.

Setup and CNC programing on the other hand are the future of manufacturing. More and more the expectation is you are going to have a degree. Not understanding how what is going on behind the scene on setup of some of these machines can easily lead to $100k to million dollar+ mistakes.

I agree, Set-up and CNC are the future. Thus our capital investment in ATC Technology. However the people assigned to this technology will be men and women (not Monkeys) who have the skill set to understand Sheet Metal Fabrication with or without any form of degree. I do not look at a diploma as the defining factor for a valued position on the team. I only look at what value they bring to the fabrication table.

Our most highly skilled Set-ups and Operators know everything they need to know behind the machines and software or they would not be able to do what they do. Some of the Machine Tool suppliers send their Guru's here to learn from our "uneducated" people. These guys make our machines do things out of the box and the Machine Tool Manufacturers try and learn what we do, how we do it and apply automation to it. It is easy to automate science and a real challenge to automate art. Turrets and Lasers are 90% science and 10% art. Press Brakes, at least the type of work we do is 90% art and 10 science.

My best friend works in the BMW supply chain in SC. He is a materials engineer, but specializes in setup of injection molding machines. His simplest machine has 60 servos and over 200 sensors. 10 years ago his plant had 200 operators, now they run it with 15. Finding reliable labor is difficult and getting expensive so they are looking to automate the last process. They are also desperately looking for people who can do setup. Starting salary are 60K out of college and 100k with 7-10 years experience. No degree, don't bother to apply.

BMW = Apples. Our Fab Job Shop = Canned Tuna.

My point is you cannot paint with a broad brush BMW's issues/skill set/qualifiers apply across the wide industry of manufacturing/production.

Every business is unique. We all have different levels of skill required related to the process required for our area of manufacturing. Currently I cannot limit our supply of people for employment based on level of education. Maybe someday when there are no High School Drop Outs and everyone has a BS/BA Degree I can do that and the market rate allows it where we can survive in a global economy.

My Dad is a great example. Kicked out of his parents house the day he turned 18 in 1957. 2 weeks before graduation from high school...his fathers deal...one less mouth to feed. Live with a friend, graduated never got a printed copy of his diploma. Joined the Navy, discharged after serving 4 years as a Air Craft Sheet Metal Mechanic on an Aircraft Carrier. Started pushing a broom for a Sheet Metal Shop in 1961 and bought it out in 1979 after working his way through all positions. Sold his shop in 1994 and floats between MN and FL and travels the world. Sits on the Board of Directors of 7 Manufacturing Companies, 2 Holding Companies and 1 College. I love looking at the Pedigrees of all the other Board Members of these institutions and then looking at my Dad's...he brings value with out any formal education and is highly respected.

I wonder sometimes how many companies over look very qualified individuals because they don't have a framed rag.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Thanks for everyone's thoughts. I think we have collectively figured out the solution here.

What needs to happen in cases where the school is buying these CNC mills and lathes is they need to set up classes that use them rather than just have them available to make a one off part for a robot. I think we could all get on board with that.

I also would be EXTREMELY behind the idea of extracurricular activities that focus interested kids into "Making". It will be nice if the Maker-Fairs and Maker-Shops, and Tech Clubs get pushed out to the rural areas where I live. That being said...my kids have been so busy through high school that it really would be a case of having to quit something if they wanted to join something else. I do think you can be "over focused". Meaning, being in the Marching Band, or running cross country is a valid use of a kid's time, even if it means they can't participate in a Tech Club of some sort due to time constraints. Heck, I learned more useful information about working with other people towards a common goal in Marching Band than I have in any single activity before or since high school. (Yeah...I was a band geek. Sure that won't surprise any of you that have read my posts.)

Oh...and 2/3 of my kids are mechanical engineers and they do know the basics of how to make a part on a manual machine. The oldest is an automation design engineer for a company that builds turn-key automation systems for the manufacturing sector (and of course..he does 99% of his work on Solid Works), and the middle kid is finishing up this semester and starting with a major pharmaceutical company as an automation engineer in June.

I have an ME degree myself and I guess I can say 31 years into my career, I haven't drawn any unemployment yet. It's not been glamorous, but it's been steady...and at times pretty interesting.

PHil

 

[WhoWhatNow]

Very interesting discussion. My question is this: who employs more people; the apples or the oranges?
That is probably the first question we need to understand if we want to prepare our kids for a good career. If the ratio is 100:1 the answer will be very different than if it was 1:2.

 

[Bob-B]

Bigdave160, I agree with you 100%. But having small business owners, friends of mine in the trades no less, who have sat on our local school board, our local system needs a big reset. Most teachers I know, including my wife, will be the 1st to say that government needs to get out of the education business. They have no clue as to what a business owner needs in terms of a technically educated employee. Unless I’m wrong, according to my niece in San Antonio, Texas doesn’t take any federal money and therefore is not subject to the federal mandates. Please correct me if I’m wrong on that. That’s a great start. NY is BURIED in unfunded mandates from Albany. Couple that with Long Island’s 120-odd individual fiefdom school districts and you can see why we’re saddled with an average annual school tax of $10k. Forget town & county taxes, that’s chump change by comparison. My nieces’ children in San Antonio are special needs students. You guys are light years ahead of us, at a fraction of the cost. My wife and daughter are teach similar children here and have said such. My district is more concerned about turf fields and new sport uniforms than anything academic. I know 1st hand as all three of my kids played several varsity level sports, 1 played in a D-1 level college on $. It’s all about priorities and ours are screwed up.

This sandbar was once a manufacturing powerhouse in the military aircraft arena going to its infancy. I started my engineering career in that industry, only to see it shrivel and die up. One of my kid’s tech teacher was an aerospace engineer who went into teaching. We used to talk about how the schools supported that need. As mfg moved away, those programs went south.

 

[American Locomotive]

Even though I work for the government, I still do consulting. I've been to lots of factories there that is what an operator does. I understand your point about the quality of a person making a difference in the final product. There is still a market for that middle of the road machinist who understands basic metrology and setup. Not everyone is fully automated. There will be for a market for those skills for a while, but it is a dying art. Going into that field has a lot of risk as a kid. Those jobs are going to get fewer and fewer.

The last machine I consulted on was for an aerospace machining company. Actually a relatively small shop outside of San Diego. The machine (three mills and two actuator arms actually) did 42 operations in 6 setups. Each machine had CMM probe in to verify the part was were it expected it and in tolerance from the last step. A human never touched the part from square block of aluminum to final product. That is the future.

I don't think the skilled operator position will ever go away. A dedicated CMM probe is no good for job shop applications - which is what we do. We have CNC machines with 2.9 second cycle times for a complete part, and some mechanical cam-driven machines churning out a part in as little as 0.8 seconds. These parts are manufactured with anywhere from 6 to 20+ steps and dozens of critical dimensions. Having the machine stop and check a dimension after each step would destroy productivity.

We have some extremely complicated parts that would take a CMM all day to check all the critical dimensions. Often parts have dimensions that cannot be checked with a vision system either. You'd have to build a dedicated testing machine for each part to automate the process, and that's just not feasible when your job length can be anywhere from 500,000 parts to just 50. We have some parts where the setup time is longer than it takes for the machine to make the parts. If we have to spend days or weeks getting the automated testing machine calibrated and dialed in - well we just burned through all the profit the job would have given us anyways.

I agree that setup and programming are definitely some of the most important aspects, but you really can't downplay the roll the operator plays in semi-mass production machining. We can't compete with China for long-running jobs (10+ million parts) of identical parts. We accel with short-to-medium run parts, of high complexity that may change frequently. Setup times, cycle times, and time-to-first-good-part are absolutely critical. We rely on our operators being excellent machinist in addition to their programming skills. If they didn't have strong machining and metrology backgrounds, it'd take us weeks to start making good parts.

I will also say $15-$30 an hour doesn't cut it in my area.

We typically start operators at $25/hr if they have 0 background in machining. Operators with at least some background start at $30/hr.

 

[stioc]

WOW really long replies, anyone got the TLDR versions? <-- See I'm making a point here, this is the world we live in today, too much readily available information/technology and too little time. I think the days of manual machining are pretty much over except in very specialized cases. I see on hobby machinist forums where people are starting off with a CNC mill as their first mill ever and spitting out very complex parts quite easily that would take an average "old-school" machinist weeks if he can do it at all.

Case in point my 12yo made a heart-shaped pendant the other day and cut it on the CNC router without any prior CNC experience. No need to learn G-code these days the software is getting smarter and smarter to spit out optimized toolpaths and g-code.

 

[Bob-B]

I've spent the last 20 years designing high accuracy, quick change workholding systems for the machine tool industry, primarily the auto industry. Think power train components. From what I see and hear, the money is in process engineering, and set-up/troubleshooting. The vast majority of products we design tooling for are automatically loaded and unloaded by robots. Very little human contact in a high production environment today. I used to moonlight for a local grinding machine manufacturer. He built complete grinding systems including integrating the robot and pre-process and post-process inspection of components such as fuel injection nozzles. If the part was NG, no time was wasted grinding it.

 

[zendriver]

This reminds me of the silly argument, of using the drill Doctor, verses learning how to sharpen bits by hand.

We need to train kids to function as adults in our modern workplace, something that not happening fast enough, now.


If someone becomes proficient in CNC and wants to dabble in (or move to)"manual machining" later, they can't just pick it up?

Of course they can.

Since school funding (and class time) is not infinite, we need the most bang-for-the-buck, Now!

Frankly, I was a bit shocked, they were ponying up, for any industrial arts equipment at all, given the push in recent decades to trade learning job skills, for borrowing money to attend expensive colleges.

Good for them.

 

[William Payne]

I think the reality is is that people have this romanticised outlook about manual machining compared to CNC. CNC is here to stay and manual machining will become more and more niche.

 

[zr1nsx]

I have been a Journeyman Toolmaker for 38 years now. When I first started learning the trade, not many shops had CNC mills and lathes so everything was done on manual machines. By thoroughly learning the manual machining basics, I became quite good at CNC machining when our shop got into new technology because I fully understood the "fundamentals". I think it's great that today's youngsters are learning CNC technology at school, but in my experience very few of the young kids I have worked with were good at machining. They could program the **** out of any CAM package, but couldn't make good parts. You just can't teach experience! As far as making one off parts, I can make darn near anything, and I can do it much faster, cleaner, and accurate with CNC. Couldn't imagine not having all of my CNC capability, but I'm thankful I know manual machining. I don't think many good CNC Toolmakers or machinists exist that aren't skilled at manual machining as well.

 

[William Payne]

I have been a Journeyman Toolmaker for 38 years now. When I first started learning the trade, not many shops had CNC mills and lathes so everything was done on manual machines. By thoroughly learning the manual machining basics, I became quite good at CNC machining when our shop got into new technology because I fully understood the "fundamentals". I think it's great that today's youngsters are learning CNC technology at school, but in my experience very few of the young kids I have worked with were good at machining. They could program the **** out of any CAM package, but couldn't make good parts. You just can't teach experience! As far as making one off parts, I can make darn near anything, and I can do it much faster, cleaner, and accurate with CNC. Couldn't imagine not having all of my CNC capability, but I'm thankful I know manual machining. I don't think many good CNC Toolmakers or machinists exist that aren't skilled at manual machining as well.

I think it is important to understand what you are making and the limitations of making it. Its like when you get a designer who has no idea about the making it side of things and designs a part that is practically impossible to machine.

 

[stioc]

I know this is hard for the career machinists who had to learn machining the hard/real way but in my opinion there's very need for manual machining anymore. You can design and 'print' way faster using CNC. In fact, watch NYC CNC videos on YT and you'll see the software catches errors in advance that otherwise would waste days of machining to find out the small errors. The thing is CNC has been around for what 40+ yrs, it's not really new it's just way more accessible and the software like Fusion360 etc have evolved to the point where it doesn't make sense to even bother with manual machining anymore when you're more interested in the producing parts rather than the process of producing parts. We see this in all aspects of life; guys that hate pocket-holes for wood joinery, guys that despise MIG because they prefer OXY/Stick, guys that think electric cars are a fad, guys that drive stick shift in stop-n-go daily commute.

 

[6spdCR]

I'll start this by saying with respect you are comparing Apples to Canned Tuna...



Maybe in the arena you play in. However in our little niche of the fabrication job shop world that is far from true. I have highly trained Operators, making good money for their skill set and honestly a Monkey would be incapable of completing the task of forming a Chassis for a Server Blade in a Press Brake. If you are going to argue why the Monkey would be qualified my appreciation for your opinion or view on the matter will go down hill fast. Real fast.



I agree, Set-up and CNC are the future. Thus our capital investment in ATC Technology. However the people assigned to this technology will be men and women (not Monkeys) who have the skill set to understand Sheet Metal Fabrication with or without any form of degree. I do not look at a diploma as the defining factor for a valued position on the team. I only look at what value they bring to the fabrication table.

Our most highly skilled Set-ups and Operators know everything they need to know behind the machines and software or they would not be able to do what they do. Some of the Machine Tool suppliers send their Guru's here to learn from our "uneducated" people. These guys make our machines do things out of the box and the Machine Tool Manufacturers try and learn what we do, how we do it and apply automation to it. It is easy to automate science and a real challenge to automate art. Turrets and Lasers are 90% science and 10% art. Press Brakes, at least the type of work we do is 90% art and 10 science.



BMW = Apples. Our Fab Job Shop = Canned Tuna.

My point is you cannot paint with a broad brush BMW's issues/skill set/qualifiers apply across the wide industry of manufacturing/production.

Every business is unique. We all have different levels of skill required related to the process required for our area of manufacturing. Currently I cannot limit our supply of people for employment based on level of education. Maybe someday when there are no High School Drop Outs and everyone has a BS/BA Degree I can do that and the market rate allows it where we can survive in a global economy.

My Dad is a great example. Kicked out of his parents house the day he turned 18 in 1957. 2 weeks before graduation from high school...his fathers deal...one less mouth to feed. Live with a friend, graduated never got a printed copy of his diploma. Joined the Navy, discharged after serving 4 years as a Air Craft Sheet Metal Mechanic on an Aircraft Carrier. Started pushing a broom for a Sheet Metal Shop in 1961 and bought it out in 1979 after working his way through all positions. Sold his shop in 1994 and floats between MN and FL and travels the world. Sits on the Board of Directors of 7 Manufacturing Companies, 2 Holding Companies and 1 College. I love looking at the Pedigrees of all the other Board Members of these institutions and then looking at my Dad's...he brings value with out any formal education and is highly respected.

I wonder sometimes how many companies over look very qualified individuals because they don't have a framed rag.

4 FN 27, I have been in the metal working/ machining industry for 20 years, owned a shop for 7 and now I teach machine shop at the Vocational high school I graduated from. Without getting overly involved I will say that all of your posts in this this thread explain the problems we face and their solutions very, very well.