Code question

[blazentrout]

Im currently pulling wire to get ready for my 200 amp upgrade on my breaker box and i have a question what i need to do for my well pump wiring running from the ceiling to the pressure switch.

I an replacing the well wiring from the breaker box to the pressure switch do to the fact it is cloth covered with no ground that feeds into a single place glass fuse box then to the pressure switch with a piece of 14ga romex that appears to have no grounds on the advice of one of the electrician that came out to give me an estimate. He said better to be safe than sorry and if you run the wire, i'll hook it up/swap it for you nc and it will save both of use grief from the inspector.

As much as i would like to secure the new 10/3wg romex to the pipe running down pressure tank and switch like it currently is, i dont think that will fly code wise. since its approx 36" from the ceiling i think i can code wise just sleeve the wires in some 3/4" conduit and run them up to the height of the ceiling joist for protection. then just secure the top of the conduit to a cross runner to keep them from moving and call it a day. any suggestions/recommendations/comments/ect. thanks.

A side note the basement is only 68" tall to the bottom of the joists and when i do the new hot water heater and water softener i will be moving the tank to a better spot. And the orange wire in the upper left corner is the new pump feed, it just sitting there waiting for me to finish the job.

 

[rockwithjason]

yes you can sleeve the cable with emt. emt must be strapped within 3 ft of each end. you will need a fitting with a plastic bushing or and insulated throat to prevent chaffing. the emt MUST be bonded to ground in the fused disconnect by means of the lock ring tightened to the metal box and the ground terminated under the ground screw or by grounding bushing. consider replacing the fused disconnect with a new one.

 

[Norcal]

Why are you using 10/3? A well does not require a neutral, and pressure switches are tight enough that wrestling 10 AWG solid conductors + plus a useless neutral will be a pain.

 

[blazentrout]

Why are you using 10/3? A well does not require a neutral, and pressure switches are tight enough that wrestling 10 AWG solid conductors + plus a useless neutral will be a pain.

Well because i had an ID-10T moment and had 10/3wg on my brain when i went and bought the wire and i cant return it now do to it being a cut piece off a roll. So instead of spending another $50 for 10/2wg i just figured i would use what i had instead of having it hang out for ever. you are correct running it is going to **** but tis life.
It really was a boneheaded move to buy the 10/3 and for the life of me i dont know why i had that on my mind. the best i can come up with was it was a long shift and i was tired that morning after work when i got it.

consider replacing the fused disconnect with a new one.

The plan is to file 13 the disconnect and just run the breaker in the main box

 

[rockwithjason]

i am not sure but you may be required to have the local disconnect. i will have to look it up. how close is the panel? is it within site as defined by the code?

 

[theoldwizard1]

since its approx 36" from the ceiling i think i can code wise just sleeve the wires in some 3/4" conduit and run them up to the height of the ceiling joist for protection. then just secure the top of the conduit to a cross runner to keep them from moving and call it a day. any suggestions/recommendations/comments/ect. thanks.

IANALE

The real question is, does that conduit require additional support besides a clip at the top and switch box at the bottom ? I would ask the inspector.

A bit "fancier", but the same concept. Mount a work box to the ceiling joist. Use flexible "plastic" conduit to run the wire from there to the switch box with the proper attachment bushings at the top and bottom.

 

[blazentrout]

IANALE

The real question is, does that conduit require additional support besides a clip at the top and switch box at the bottom ? I would ask the inspector.

A bit "fancier", but the same concept. Mount a work box to the ceiling joist. Use flexible "plastic" conduit to run the wire from there to the switch box with the proper attachment bushings at the top and bottom.

Im not sure as i have never dealt with smurf pipe before, looks like i'll have to make a call to find out. i have the emt conduit and fittings so thats kind of why i was leaning that way but nothing is set in stone.

i am not sure but you may be required to have the local disconnect. i will have to look it up. how close is the panel? is it within site as defined by the code?

Looks like another question to ask the inspector on. distance wise its about 30' to 35' all on the same level and if it wasnt for the furnace i could see the breaker box from the tank. My pressure switch is kind of like this one, http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-30-50-Low-Pressure-Switch-PSL3050/203449577?N=5yc1vZc71e so i can manually turn the pump off right at the tank if i need to.

 

[blazentrout]

I have been meaning to up date this.
Where i live uses a hired service for inspections and one of the inspectors when you call and ask a question will always tell you " what does your code book say". I hate having to talk to him, well the first time i call i got him instead of the dedicated electrical inspector so i had to wait till the other guy got back from vacation to get my answer. he said that in this app he did not want to see ent(smurf pipe) used but mc cable would be acceptable. He told me by what i was describing to him over the phone that the romex in conduit would be fine but would prefer to see thhn in the conduit but not to sweat it as its only 3ft run. As for the disconnect, he said that what i currently have is fine.

 

[sberry]

I know everyone wants to follow the letter but,,, get it done, tape the wire to the pipe. Yes you can pipe it, you can add some bond bushings, you can add a box but the well man would have taped a 12 to the pipe and been out in minutes.
Its highly unlikely a team of school kids will be playing hockey in here and the big thing is that it is now going to be grounded.
BTW, it wont be the first time a guy made a mistake with wire, I have saved it for other uses.

 

[sberry]

I just did an upgrade (in Michigan). The inspector followed his deal to look at what was on the permit application, did not look at a single existing thing. He noticed how I had things done but looked only at the new work.
Really the inspector is the last guy I want to call and wouldn't be asking them about details to old work. This is for your electrician. No one will have a problem with replacing an old wire with a new one with ground and no one will mess with you for addig a gfci.

 

[sberry]

As for the disconnect it could go either way but I don't add extra equipment in if it doesn't need it. The fuses were likely from an old service and may have needed them depending on how it was wired.
Yes, you can add more, mo0re boxes, more pipe, over the phone yes a guy will say thhn for pipe etc which is a correct answer but if you go to his home or his parents you will find a cable taped to the pipe in a crawl or basement.
You are doing the right thing with wire replacement but don't overthink it and build in so many details that it makes it overwhelming. Use connectors, enclose splices, tape it out of the way. Physical protection needs to be reasonable, doesn't even need to be electrical pipe but as long as you are not storing garden tools against this a couple tie wraps wire to pipe would suffice.

 

[sberry]

Here is something to consider and sparky could fill you in but,,, if this is a steel well casing it is sposed to be used as the primary ground electrode, techinacly I believe a 200 calls for 4 to a UFFER or metal piping used as electrode. Ideally this should be to the casing and not the piping going to the well pump. In systems with buried piping entering a structure it would require a ground to it, if its all metal the ground wire with pump wire would be a bond. Probably clear as mud?
I generally weld a lug to the casing but they make a clamp.

 

[blazentrout]

Here is something to consider and sparky could fill you in but,,, if this is a steel well casing it is sposed to be used as the primary ground electrode, techinacly I believe a 200 calls for 4 to a UFFER or metal piping used as electrode. Ideally this should be to the casing and not the piping going to the well pump. In systems with buried piping entering a structure it would require a ground to it, if its all metal the ground wire with pump wire would be a bond. Probably clear as mud?
I generally weld a lug to the casing but they make a clamp.

yep clear as concrete, i would have to take a look to tell you what the casing is(i think its plastic)and im just going to play stupid on it.

I have actually had the wire swapped for about 3 weeks now(and powering the pump) and am waiting for april 15th to arrive so i can finish the upgrade to 200 amps and the under ground service to the house(saves me $3 a ft on the cost). All i did was the kiss approach and sleeved the wires in conduit to the bottom of the joists and called it a day.
If i can help it i dont call an inspector to ask questions as per advice of the long time locals its cheaper and easier to just ask and pay for forgiveness they tell me lol.

 

[sberry]

I have had work inspected by our current guy, never had a turn down but never met him till the other day. This was a house I own and made me legit so I went with the chance to meet the guy. I am an ahole most of the time but he likes the way I dunnit.
I do a little work for friends and the needy, it would be way too complicated and be a real problem if I failed inspections.
I never had a good way to study and still am not really good at it but next time I will mention that I learned it on the internet. I ended up on a forum, it had been a long time since I even so much as looked at a code book let alone understand and thought all there was to it was knowing a 30A went o a 10.
I still don't know anything about electricity but am a pretty profficent installer and even quaizi designer.

 

[sberry]

The forum system has a way of ironing it out. My nature is on a welding fab forum but its quite narrow and I was on electric before I found a welding one which was a good thing. I backtracked, bought a book and followed Aceman and Norcal and a couple others and just wired a house and reconsidered a whole new level of appreciation for code and inspection.
I return to a forum for a while, pester this one when an area interests me. Knowing everything about electric isn't high on my list, neither is welding but installation and construction are cost/bottlenecks to what ever my end goal is, uninterrupted power to home or shop etc., installation and use.
People will drag a hose every day, connect 2 together. I will dig a ditch and run a pipe once. Cheap poly has made a lot of this even easier.

 

[sberry]

Here is my take on your well. Look, is it metal? If it is its a gift of sorts. You are not above average should you not use it and its not free to install a wire but it is a code requirement for a service upgrade, why wait for the inspector to inform you?
2nd, it doesn't get any better as a ground electrode. Since I follow the book a little and get the phone bonded right I quit getting surge zaps and a big hit took out phone co protection right at demark.
I am not sure if they allow 6 for 100A but to buried water pipe or water system I believe its 4 for 200 and in theory I believe its something about the wire being size larger makes it a preferred path as the primary electrode etc,,,, most of it a bunch of babble over my head but it helps to get a little exposure to theory.
They only required a 6 for a bond to some steel on the frame.
The phone co has an expensive copper shield to be grounded and some of the tech do not understand it,,, hence they do not do it of misapply the rules.

 

[sberry]

If it was mine would be looking to see if it was steel, if it was be connecting a ground wire from my service to it and a wire from my phone service to the same point as well as any TV that required grounding.

 

[sberry]

All this is moot as to how it will work but often its worth taking a look at minimum code requirements when sizing wire. In many cases they are a minimum for a different reason than simply electric demands, a lot has to do with the type of circuit and service equipment its connected to.
Some equipment like wells may have controllers with finer stuff thann would be protected on an incoming heavy motor circuit etc but if you are above the standard and short run you are better than it needs to be. It may only need 10A but is on a 14 circuit or a 12,,, no point in going to 10 and may invite potential problems,,, granted they are small risk problems but to add to this its basically intermittent load to boot so efficiency is pretty well a non issue.
What could be a potential are conductors and grounds larger than they need to be electrically and closer in size to ground conductors.
These things are a micro issue and mental ************ for geeks but if I lived in lightning areas would take a look at helping myself with a new service install.

 

[sberry]

A lot of strikes are mis diagnosed and the result is damage to well equipment as in the end it was the best ground in an old or poor system. Casing wasn't grounded by a larger wire, the stand pipe or pump was grounded electrically with the power conductors.
Given a choice, 6 to a case or 12 to a pipe a 6 will take it first.

 

[sberry]

I remember quizzing one of the guru about a well I was going and when I said lug to case he even implied not to use rods for this service,,, why give it a choice when there is 160 ft of welded steel post in the ground 10 ft away.