Compact Fluorescent vs Tubes

[rinny_tin_tin]

One thing that needs to be considered when people try to make comparisons regarding energy efficiency, initial cost, and ROI is how often something is used. While on paper it might be meaningful that X is more efficient than y (and we are talking about efficient bulbs to begin with right?), it may take more years to achieve ROI than the homeowner might live in the house.

Honestly, If i averaged it out, I might use my garage a couple hours/week and even less so in the winter months. i expect once the kids get a little older and I can spend more time in the garage and take up projects again, but for now it may as well be a show room. CFLs + cans are going to cost me $200 whereas LED (I'm guessing) are going to cost considerably more.

Anyway, good conversation guys. My goal is to explore reasonable options...and LED may as well get a strong look, despite my initial ideas.

True - ROI is clearly impacted by scale. LEDs shine (a pun) in many areas -and achieves especially high scores with respect to maintenance. While changing bulbs may not be too onerous for homeowners, it is an issue for larger scale operations - say commercial buildings, for example where many thousands of bulbs may be in use - requiring certain manpower. A 50,000 hour lamp vice a 10,000 hour lamp can certainly figure into manpower calcs and ROI. The Hg issue speaks to environmental stewardship - and LEDS provide this bonus without cost or compromise. I happen to love fish - however, I also know that each fish I consume also contributes to the Mercury level I store in my fat. Carbon footprint, etc -- all this adds up. However, just looking at cost of electric energy and luminance efficiency is sufficient to justify the LED alternatives over CFL/Incandescents'HID/Fl Tube, etc.

Use this Bot to calculate your energy savings and identify ROI - I think you will find it compelling. All that other stuff, Mercury/Carbon/Global warming, etc is bonus

http://www.creells.com/calculator.aspx

 

[Joe Reed]

In my typical 2 car garage, I installed a couple of those dome shaped light fixtures that seem to be used as bedroom fixtures in most of the new houses. Lowe's has them....2 for $19.99 - designed for 2 60w incandescent bulbs in each fixture. Instead, I used the 100w "equivalent" CFLs - actually 23w each. Since they draw less current and run cooler than the 60w bulbs the fixtures were designed for, there should be no problem with the upgrade. I chose the "daylight" bulbs, since I wanted the brightest, whitest light possible. Other than taking a few seconds to get to full brightness if the garage is cold, I can't think of a single other negative. I have a regular bulb in the garage door opener, so I can always just switch that on if needed. The positives are:

-Cheap and easy (I'm always broke and lazy )
-Plenty of light, and it's well disbursed since the light shines 360 degrees (much better than can lights in that respect)
-They look nice
-Since they are pretty well sealed, I don't have to empty bugs out of 'em like I always had to do the tube fixtures with the plastic diffusers
-the only intrusion into the insulation above is the small round plastic box (again, much better than can lights

I like them so well I'm going to install a couple more since they're so cheap and easy to do. The first two were installed toward the "front" of the garage - where most of the work is done. They actually light the entire garage pretty well, but I'm going to put another pair toward the "door" end of the garage to even it out a bit more....

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

rinny, what has been your experience with the directionality of LED lighting. My experience has been with automotive lighting as well as drop lights, and LED lighting doesn't "fill" areas. There are ways to project the beams, like inverted cone LEDs, so that the beam isn't straight out the end of the LED. My experience is that it takes a ton of LEDs to get a decent amount of "fill" light and typically they take up 3-4 times the space as what a standard bulb does. I have no experience with household LED lighting though. I'm more curious than anything, definitely no expert!

Hopefully these aren't the standard for LED light bulb prices!

http://greenhome.huddler.com/products/earthled-cl-5-led
http://www.besthomeledlighting.com/product/SP80B-120-E27-10W-W

LEDs are indeed relatively very directional, with conical spans of 15 to 30 degrees being typical. So....for 360 degree coverage on each plane is 24 * 2 = 48 LEDs. At say and average of 10 mA each that = 480 mA - or less than 1/2 ampere at say 5 VDC = 2.5 watts input power. Using average MCD values for the LEDs = we get about 1800 lumens = roughly what you get from a 100 Watt lamp (Input Power) = 120 VAC * 1.2 Amperes.

Remember - a typical incandescent lamp converts only about 15% - 20% of its input power into visible light, with losses owed to heat (heat, IR/UV, etc)

Prices: I have seen some high prices, and I have seen some reasonable prices. I have not yet seen low prices. Check with CREE distributors, but I note that China seems to be at the cutting edge of marketing this technology.

I truly believe that within this next admin, you will see the LEDs sitting as the centerpiece of drastic energy change policies

Best!

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

I typed "cfl dimmer" into Google.....
This was first in the list. Lots more choices as well.

a)How many you found; Several pages on the internet and I know HD has them.
b) $$ what it cost you; $10.32 on the Internet...not sure of HD's price
c) how you like it; and, In-laws use them...they are fine
d) range of dimming. First one I found was 100-10%

We only have one dimmable light in our house...ceiling fan...not a good use for CFL's due to vibration...LED's would be good but there is that issue of light direction....

For reference I found THIS site that sells LED lights. A 120 lum bulb cost about $25....go to the bottom of the page and read the note regarding the use of dimmers.

But I would like to read the paper.....

Time for another .

"a)How many you found; Several pages on the internet and I know HD has them.
b) $$ what it cost you; $10.32 on the Internet...not sure of HD's price"

You got an Internet string?

LEDs are very easy to dim and are typically run at between 3 to 5 VDC. However, many of the LED systems you see are based on 120VAC to accommodate retrofit applications. That is, they run 120VAC and stepdown/rectify/regulate at the appliance rather than run low-voltage DC through teh same cables.

 

[Fast Orange]

Not that I want to throw a bucket of cold water on everyones enthusiasm,but I believe a very important point is being missed in regards to any recessed light in a garage with living space above.IIRC,any wall or cieling between a garage and living space has to have a minimum fire rating.Any box fixture or other device mounted flush in the fire rated ceiling must have a fire rating equal to or superior to the rating of the wall/ceiling.Good luck finding that in a reasonably priced can or recessed flourescent.The best way to deal with this is to use surface mount your light fixtures,unless $ is no object.

 

[buening]

......assuming there is living space above. Most standard garages do not have living quarters above unless you are building a 2-story garage or if it is part of those bi/tri-level houses.

 

[a3tripod]

I've already contacted our fire marshal to talk about fire code for this project. the only requirement is to have a layer of 5/8" fire rated gypsum between the garage and the living space above it. I was already planning to build recessed boxes around each can to satisfy Icynene install requirements. Obviously I'm going to have to line the box with drywall if I decide to go with a recessed fixture solution.

Thanks for pointing out a very critical consideration. I mean this sincerely. My neighbor's house burnt down 6 months ago, (their car shorted and caught fire as it was sitting in the garage one night). The fact that their garage was up to fire code, enabled them to escape safely.

 

[a3tripod]

In case some of you are curious, I've attached some pictures of the garage. Yes, it needs a lot of work, (you'll be seeing a lot of me in the upcoming months), but at least you'll have some idea what I'm up against.

This is the front of the house. Notice the little octagon window..that is the outside wall of the master bath..hence we have living space above our garage.

The single bay:

Better shot of the single bay...see, there's a door back there!

Looking across form the single bay to the double bay:

Front of the double bay:

Looking across the double bay to the single bay:

 

[ddawg16]

I feel better now....I'm not the only one with a lot of stuff....

Nice looking house though....garage has a LOT of potential.

I should have 3 cans wired up by tonight......these 3 cans are actually outside in front of my garage. The idea is that I'll be able to work on my jeep with plenty of light and not have it shining into the neighbors yard...

The 3 6" cans are evenly spaced across the front of the garage opening. Where the ladder is is about where the left one is...one in the center and the last one on the right.

With the flash off on the camera, I should be able to get a good idea of the light and pattern.

 

[a3tripod]

Glad I could bring some comfort to you You're project is coming along nicely.

Actually, I'm going to be building a shed first so I can move most of that junk out. My plan is to keep the mitre saw, table saw, compressor, drill press and tool chests in the garage. Most of the rest of that is going in the shed.

 

[Danase]

Thanks for the info. guys. I was looking at lighting my new garage and was going to go with 4' tubes, but I had those in my last garage and they flickered a lot, ballast went out, and so on. It will be cheaper for me to just put 20 light fixtures with CFL bulbs and call it good. I'm not sure if I'll use the cans though. I might just go with the standard screw in open style fixture.

 

[hldtyt]

Can someone post some pics of their CFL cans installed? Just to see a visual of what a garage would look like with cans!

 

[ddawg16]

Can someone post some pics of their CFL cans installed? Just to see a visual of what a garage would look like with cans!

Funny you should ask.....I just hooked up the back set of lights tonight...I'm short 3 bulbs....but there is still plenty of light....I'm using 100W equiv Day Light bulbs. Excuse the mess.....we only just took down the temporary lean too we had on the back of the house that was storing all of our 'junk'......as soon as the upstairs is done, all the stuff goes up there and I'll have room for my jeep.....

There are 12 cans in the back half of the garage....

This is a view towards the front.....I have 6 cans in the front....positioned around the outside profile of the garage door when it is up.....I thought about putting some where the garage door is when it's up.....but when it's up, the lights are blocked.....I might try the idea that one member came up with where he put lights on the garage door.....