Concrete Cookie for Pole Barn

[karoc]

Guys it looks like no one sells these concrete cookies in size I need local. Looking for 16" x 4-6" thick so I was thinking that I would just make them out of sonic tube and bags of concrete. Yea its lot of work but I don't know who else to check w/ that is local. I figure I could make couple each day after work but I don't know if a bag of concrete has that rating of 2800lbs or more. Looking for suggestions for purchase or DIY concrete cookies that poles set on.

 

[metaleltr]

You can buy 5000psi concrete in bags, its more expensive than the regular stuff. Lowes website lists the standard yellow bag of Quikrete at 4000psi. Water content and proper mixing will affect psi rating but is seems you have plenty of room to meet the minimum requirements.

 

[rangerfredbob]

I just did the math on the amount of concrete needed and just mixed it and poured directly in the hole... It was 1.5 80# bags on my 24" holes...

My brother talked sense into me, that's a heavy chunk!

 

[Sureshot]

I would talk to the ready mix guys about what they do with excess or about taking your forms to a job and filling them with any leftovers. Leftovers can be a pain for them and you may be doing them a favor.

 

[astroracer]

Do the math and dump it directly in the hole. Talk to your inspector first though to be sure that is okay. I've never set cookies here in MI. but the codes here don't require them.
Mark

 

[plout99]

I made mine, they were available local however I wanted 22” dia x10” thick pucks for the 24” holes I drilled. I cut up a 55 gallon drum to use as a form, put welded wire in the middle and attached wire to it for a lifting point. Hauled them from my garage to the build site with the 3 point on my tractor. I was able to make 4 per day using a borrowed electric mixer. It isn’t that hard or labor intensive compared to DYI the entire building. I also bought a pallet of the 4000 psi quickcrete from lows it’s less $$$ that way.

 

[plout99]

Forgot to load the picture

 

[PLOWJEEP]

Long ago before these cookies were available guys used to put solid cmu’s in the bottom of the holes.

 

[karoc]

Thanks for all good ideals, I did not know about the bag mix being different so good info. In my area the concrete company is about hr away and I have no local codes to follow so going by the set of my pants and little what makes sense. As hard as what ground is during the summer I don't think I need 14" holes but 12" or 14" it will cost me the same. I sure like the ideal of just mixing it up and pouring in hole which would make life so much easier. Now if Tx will get out of this usual cold weather.

 

[ace10]

A concrete disc 16" X 5" would weigh close to 100lbs.

That's not something I'd want to try to drop into a hole.

 

[Dumber than lumber]

I have in my indoor junkpile (a/k/a garage) three pieces of metal duct. Diameters of 12 and 14 inches. If i used a piece of that i would put a lifting eye in there.
Another approach could be the plastic drums. Cut a slice with sawzall and pour in place. Or roll it to the desired location once dried.

 

[firebirdparts]

If it interests you, you could also just add a little portland cement to sack concrete. I don't really like sack concrete; The aggregate is too small. But that's just a minor gripe from me.

The hole is the place to create it, for sure. Got its own form down in there. Last summer, I built a new deck, and after the first few holes I started trying to dig inverted funnel shaped holes by hand. It's actually pretty easy here in the red clay of Tennessee.

 

[Dragfluid]

If it interests you, you could also just add a little portland cement to sack concrete. I don't really like sack concrete; The aggregate is too small. But that's just a minor gripe from me.

The hole is the place to create it, for sure. Got its own form down in there. Last summer, I built a new deck, and after the first few holes I started trying to dig inverted funnel shaped holes by hand. It's actually pretty easy here in the red clay of Tennessee.

Exactly. Just dump the mix in there and a little water on top of it and get on with life. Several pros told me to do it that way, so I did.

 

[teal95]

When they did mine they just dumped 2 bags in each hole, dry.

 

[danfromsyr]

same here, and sometimes my hole(s) were (half)filled with water..
just pour the concrete sackk in I have a 6ft pipe with a 3in disc on the end..
it tamps, it stirs, it burns air bubbles.

When they did mine they just dumped 2 bags in each hole, dry.

 

[Diesel Dan]

I just brought in a concrete truck.
Post pads/footers/cookies have a spec. Mine was 24" diameter x 12" thick. Throwing dry sacks in the hole has zero consistency for mix and strength.

Tossing a cookie in the hole is asking for settling issues if loose material gets under one. We had to cut loose a header and jack it up just for that reason once.

https://up.codes/s/post-frame-accessory-structures

 

[karoc]

I just brought in a concrete truck.
Post pads/footers/cookies have a spec. Mine was 24" diameter x 12" thick. Throwing dry sacks in the hole has zero consistency for mix and strength.

Tossing a cookie in the hole is asking for settling issues if loose material gets under one. We had to cut loose a header and jack it up just for that reason once.

https://up.codes/s/post-frame-accessory-structures

Neat information, going to try and print that. And to make sure that dirt under the cookie is solid.

 

[Hank11]

Why do you think you need cookies? That no one near you sells them might be an indication that no one near you uses them.

And mixing in the hole is good enough for a mailbox post or light duty fence, but not much else.

 

[karoc]

Why do you think you need cookies? That no one near you sells them might be an indication that no one near you uses them.

And mixing in the hole is good enough for a mailbox post or light duty fence, but not much else.

Good point, but it may help me feel better

 

[NUTTSGT]

How big of poles are you going with and how big of a hole are you putting them in ?

 

[Diesel Dan]

How big of poles are you going with and how big of a hole are you putting them in ?

When I did mine in NE Ohio a 30x40 required 24" diameter x 12" thick pad/cookie under each post. With a 48" frost line, something they don't need in Texas...yet.

 

[karoc]

How big of poles are you going with and how big of a hole are you putting them in ?

After talking with couple of Barn Builders and to take it one step up or better, poles will be 6x6 and 4' deep and 8' on center. I really don't think I need them cause the BB's that I talk with does not use them. And as one of other posters saying if they don't sell them then not needed. The ground is soft first 6" then after that its pretty dang hard even after raining. But in my little simple world a 5.5x5.5 pole is so many sq in pushing down I think would be better to push down on say a 14" disk which is more sq in's. I haven't price bags of concrete with the higher rating yet but figure two bags hole will make it better. And this will be our living space w/shop space. With todays camera's I plan to document the build with all details when day comes to sell cause I'm in a rest home will have some documentation.
But I also have to admit my budget is limited, already had some unexpected issues that I did not plan on, so my pockets are not deep. But to cut corners on main frame or foundation is not good thing, but I don't want to throw money away either. So I look at concrete as being little investment, am I being scattered brain?

 

[Diesel Dan]

Many builders love to fall back on the appeal to tradition fallacy, aka "this is right because we've always done it this way."

You are looking at a shop/house "shouse" or barn/house "Harn". They have started clamping down on those in my local area. One of the big reasons I was given by head of building/zoning on these none traditional builds is wind load deflection. Traditional pole barns are not designed for human habitation so have different wind load deflection specs.

You can still build a post frame building for living quarters too. It will have to have stamped engineered prints showing it meets all habital structure standards. It will have more structural lumber than a "traditional" pole barn too.

In the end it's up to you. As stated I would, and did, pour actual pads under the posts. You can also go along with the "we've always done it this way" in Texas and deal with frozen water pipes next ice storm too.
Or you can build it better. Is ~$400 for a short load of concrete for your homes foundation excessive? That's your call too.

 

[danfromsyr]

I am always amazed that CODE is the minimum standard that MOST adhere to.

we had a Wal-mart in our snow zone 10miles north of me have to close because the roof built to code didn't handle a 5 or 10yr event.
sure other buildings failed in that same year too. built to minimum standards..

tightening up the rafter spacing only costs a couple more rafters. but like the pole hole concrete it's better with it than w/o..

 

[rangerfredbob]

My 36x48 shop has 12' spacing on the posts (all 14 of them) in 24" diameter holes, 6"x6" poles set on 6" of concrete mixed and poured directly in the holes (except for one...) with the top of the concrete being 48" from ground surface. The bottom of the poles have a 12" treated 2x4 on the bottom of each flat pointed outward nailed on with I think 6 nails, then the holes are back filled with gravel tamped every 8" or roughly one wheelbarrow with a scrap 4x4. If it matters the roof trusses are 4-12 and the 2x6 perlins are spaced 24"

The one hole that is different than the rest was a PITA, when I was digging that hole I hit lumber... 15 wheel barrows worth of lumber scraps and at least a hundred pounds of scrap metal (I live 4 miles from a truss company, I'm pretty sure it's scraps from that) was removed and after I'd rented a mini excavator (I WAS NOT going to shovel lumber by hand over my shoulders) the hole was over 6' diameter at the top and it was 70" deep, I made a plywood box for that and that post has 10 bags of concrete in it... and probably half a load of gravel...

 

[Dragfluid]

The one hole that is different than the rest was a PITA, when I was digging that hole I hit lumber... 15 wheel barrows worth of lumber scraps and at least a hundred pounds of scrap metal (I live 4 miles from a truss company, I'm pretty sure it's scraps from that) was removed and after I'd rented a mini excavator (I WAS NOT going to shovel lumber by hand over my shoulders) the hole was over 6' diameter at the top and it was 70" deep, I made a plywood box for that and that post has 10 bags of concrete in it... and probably half a load of gravel...

Good Lord!

 

[karoc]

Many builders love to fall back on the appeal to tradition fallacy, aka "this is right because we've always done it this way."

You are looking at a shop/house "shouse" or barn/house "Harn". They have started clamping down on those in my local area. One of the big reasons I was given by head of building/zoning on these none traditional builds is wind load deflection. Traditional pole barns are not designed for human habitation so have different wind load deflection specs.

You can still build a post frame building for living quarters too. It will have to have stamped engineered prints showing it meets all habital structure standards. It will have more structural lumber than a "traditional" pole barn too.

In the end it's up to you. As stated I would, and did, pour actual pads under the posts. You can also go along with the "we've always done it this way" in Texas and deal with frozen water pipes next ice storm too.
Or you can build it better. Is ~$400 for a short load of concrete for your homes foundation excessive? That's your call too.

Diesel Dan that is what kinda worries me is wind load, which most or all companys in these parts are saying rated for 110mph. Barndominium's is big business here. Where I'm moving I did not expect any hurricanes to make where my place is, but it did. It took down power lines and some trees,etc. So with that in mind I want to make it as strong as possible with lot of cross bracing, plus the internal framing of some walls about mid ways down. Will install Simpson ties where possible but I don't know what else can be done to roof metal. Spray foam would help make roof stronger but I wonder about rusting between foam and metal. But may not have choice just do foam for the strength benefit. Thanks for that table that you provided

 

[pofc]

The part of Michigan i live does require them . I got my at the local lumber company not a lowes or home depot. Don't forget ground contact treated posts.

 

[karoc]

The part of Michigan i live does require them . I got my at the local lumber company not a lowes or home depot. Don't forget ground contact treated posts.

Yes sir for sure, Mr Surly has a good thread on his build where he got the poles rated for .6 CCA I believe. Which I had no ideal about in ground contact, till reading his thread. Here's his link to his build, lots of good information https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364330

 

[rangerfredbob]

Good Lord!

This is just before the excevator was rented and I needed a ladder to get in and out of the stupid hole... I need to get some more pictures off my phone onto the computer, there's one with the ladder and 22" concrete box...

 

[karoc]

This is just before the excevator was rented and I needed a ladder to get in and out of the stupid hole... I need to get some more pictures off my phone onto the computer, there's one with the ladder and 22" concrete box...

Good grief, I thought I was tight. That's big hole, one down 15 more go

 

[Dragfluid]

This is just before the excevator was rented and I needed a ladder to get in and out of the stupid hole... I need to get some more pictures off my phone onto the computer, there's one with the ladder and 22" concrete box...

I don't recall any of my holes being that size.

 

[SALIV8]

My Amish builder used the concrete pucks. The delivery truck drove around and kinda dropped them in the footers.

Why would anyone not use them?