Concrete floor opinions

[Renegade1LI]

In my experience, one of the hardest things to do in concrete is properly getting a thin overlay to stay putn an existing slab.
There are many things in construction that look good on paper or in theory but the real world is a different thing.

Pouring a new slab over what's there is fine, we pour working mats below slabs all the time, we call them mud mats. Just pour 4" from the high point, I'm sure the contractor would rather do that then rip it out. On the plus side you'll have a little more positive slope away from the building.

 

[Beemer]

Pouring a new slab over what's there is fine, we pour working mats below slabs all the time, we call them mud mats. Just pour 4" from the high point, I'm sure the contractor would rather do that then rip it out. On the plus side you'll have a little more positive slope away from the building.

I wonder if all the little jagged points and rough surface on the top of the existing slab are going to be the cause of cracks in the overpour due to restricted movement when the shrinkage occurs.

I really don't know for sure but I wouldn't want to find out.

We have used mudslabs but only under heavily reinforced concrete foundations, generally mats that needed a stable working base to accurately set the rebar and keep it out of the fragile soil below. Never put a mudslab under a floor slab.

 

[Jack of all trades]

He poured that **** on purpose cause truck couldn’t get in and it was either send 2100 dollars of concrete back or do that but hindsight not sure why he did not just pour a section I’m thinking might be best to just pay to have it removed

 

[Jack of all trades]

He did that cause they couldn’t get truck in and he didn’t want to send it back but I’m afraid he made a big mess t he at needs to be removed not sure that’s why I’m asking on here thanks for impute

 

[Fixr]

As thin as that layer looks, and it apparently being on top of black poly, I suspect that removing it might be a matter of driving all over it with a skidsteer and having a crew throw the pieces into the skidsteer bucket. Then start over with a better contractor and written specifications.

 

[Jack of all trades]

So you think he just did that to try and save the 10 yards that he’d ordered? And that it will not work pouring on top just make a mess?

 

[Beemer]

It would be interesting to know the future history of the results if it is not replaced.
Good education for many.
Maybe for the owner's benefit he might consult a local authority (Structural Engineer) to step up and give an accountable opinion.

 

[BigGarage]

It would be interesting to know the future history of the results if it is not replaced.
Good education for many.
Maybe for the owner's benefit he might consult a local authority (Structural Engineer) to step up and give an accountable opinion.

The "future history", that's one of the funniest things I've ever read.

Good luck waiting for the OP to tell anything. Call me a skeptic or worse if you'd like

 

[Jack of all trades]

The "future history", that's one of the funniest things I've ever read.

Good luck waiting for the OP to tell anything. Call me a skeptic or worse if you'd like

I truly don’t know what to do he said it be fine but I think be best to just remove it and start over I’m not sure I can see that if he adds to it and I raise it say inch and half I’d have the 1-2 inch rough then have 3-5 inch finished pad/floor on top of it but still not sure which way to go wished it would of never happened

 

[Jack of all trades]

Pouring a new slab over what's there is fine, we pour working mats below slabs all the time, we call them mud mats. Just pour 4" from the high point, I'm sure the contractor would rather do that then rip it out. On the plus side you'll have a little more positive slope away from the building.

So it want cause top slab to crack out or any other problems he poured that cause truck couldn’t get to site and instead of him being on hook for the 2100 dollars of 10 yards of concrete he put it in rough and said when yard dries he’d pour another 20 yards on top and finish out it’s 4k psi concrete he did not add the fiber to that mess what do you think

 

[Jack of all trades]

So it want cause top slab to crack out or any other problems he poured that cause truck couldn’t get to site and instead of him being on hook for the 2100 dollars of 10 yards of concrete he put it in rough and said when yard dries he’d pour another 20 yards on top and finish out it’s 4k psi concrete he did not add the fiber to that mess what do you think

It’s a 40x50 garage

 

[Jack of all trades]

It's more about the money currently in play than a verbal or written contract because it takes a lawyer to enforce a contract, which rarely provides full relief if any at all. If the OP hasn't paid anything yet, he could fire the guy and take his chances with a lien but he'd still be on the hook to remove the mess. If he has paid in advance, he's probably better off working out a solution and hoping the contractor is a stand up guy. That's just the reality of it.

I haven’t paid him nor for the 2100 in concrete still debating trying to get solid info on what to do remove it or pour over it not sure seems to me I’m not a concrete expert but seems to me would be best to remove it if pour over it not sure if it would cause top pour to crack out or not ??

 

[Beemer]

You might get a local professional opinion that potentially can be backup in court if it ends up that way.
Any opinions given here won't be of any value in that occurrence; all hearsay.

 

[Jack of all trades]

You might get a local professional opinion that potentially can be backup in court if it ends up that way.
Any opinions given here won't be of any value in that occurrence; all hearsay.

Want be court if I think needs removed I’ll just pay to remove it and he be stuck with 2100 dollars for concrete and I’ll try and find somebody else to pour it ***** that it’s hard to find somebody who does good correct work

 

[Beemer]

Want be court if I think needs removed I’ll just pay to remove it and he be stuck with 2100 dollars for concrete and I’ll try and find somebody else to pour it ***** that it’s hard to find somebody who does good correct work

You might be in court if he doesn't get paid. You'd have to defend your stand.

 

[Jack of all trades]

You might be in court if he doesn't get paid. You'd have to defend your stand.

I didn’t order concrete and I maybe I got a broken driveway and a mess in my garage

 

[NUTTSGT]

He didn't want to be on the hook for $2100 worth of concrete, but wants you to be on the hook for it ?


Tell him to remove it, fix it at his cost or hit the road. He screwed the pooch on this one not you.


Actually if it were mine, I'd tell him to Get Lost and he's not getting paid. I'd remove it myself get so he didn't screw anything else up.

 

[Jack of all trades]

He didn't want to be on the hook for $2100 worth of concrete, but wants you to be on the hook for it ?


Tell him to remove it, fix it at his cost or hit the road. He screwed the pooch on this one not you.


Actually if it were mine, I'd tell him to Get Lost and he's not getting paid. I'd remove it myself get so he didn't screw anything else up.

Thanks that’s what I think I don’t think pouring over it will be as good as a solid pour

 

[ConCretin]

Something to keep in mind. It's adding insult to injury but if your contractor doesn't pay for the concrete, you are exposed to a lien from the supplier. Sounds crazy considering the circumstances and probably unlikely but it's a possibility. The supplier provided materials to your property and has a right to be paid regardless of the ineptitude of your contractor. You want to take this into account as you decide who to pay and how much.

 

[Jack of all trades]

but he ordered it in his name ? This is one big mess I’m trying to figure out what to do should of just did it myself thanks

 

[NUTTSGT]

but he ordered it in his name ? This is one big mess I’m trying to figure out what to do should of just did it myself thanks

Yep, this varies state to state with liens being filed.

 

[Jack of all trades]

This is a bunch of bs I don’t think he should have poured that **** should have just formed up a section why do people think they can half way do stuff ? Anyone on here a concrete contractor?

 

[NUTTSGT]

There are several red flags:

• No metal in slab.
• Apparently no compacted fill under slab.
• No screed boards; very difficult to get level floor.
• Your floor area is large enough that their crew will have work really hard to get
  concrete spread out if the plan is to chute it in.... The temptation will be to thin
  it out to be easier to work.

I had a 6" slab poured last month... this is with foam insulation over compacted fill,
1/2" rebar on 24" centers over previously poured footings. Since access on the
30x48 slab is from one end, the concrete was pumped in...

Those aren't red flags.

• No metal in slab. Not every pour requires metal, be it wire or rebar. Many slabs are poured everyday with fiber mesh and it's just fine for the application.
• Apparently no compacted fill under slab. How can you tell that ? Because the truck broke through the driveway or couldn't get through the yard ? That has nothing to do with the pour. I do atleast see a vapor barrier.
• No screed boards; very difficult to get level floor. Not every concrete guy uses screed boards. May simply use a wet screed with a laser. Nothing to remove and nothing to get in the way.
• Your floor area is large enough that their crew will have work really hard to get
  concrete spread out if the plan is to chute it in.... The temptation will be to thin
  it out to be easier to work. That job is way to big for using a chute, you can tell that by looking at the first picture. He already mentioned the contractor has a buggy to wheel it in. If no buggy, wheelbarrows would work just fine and you can move alot of concrete in wheelbarrows with a few guys worth their salt.

 

[NUTTSGT]

This is a bunch of bs I don’t think he should have poured that **** should have just formed up a section why do people think they can half way do stuff ? Anyone on here a concrete contractor?

Yes, it's wrong. Some contractors do shady stuff all the time, some get by with it. This is why, You, as the owner and the person with the contract in hand (or should have one if you have any doubts about who is doing the work) should do your due diligence and research who you are hiring.

How many quotes did you get for the concrete work ? Was this guy the lowest bidder ?

Doug is a concrete contractor, @ConCretin Did you read his link like he advised you too ?

EDIT: maybe he advised in another thread. He has a link in his Sig

The Concrete Underground's Guide to Floor Slabs

There have been many GJ discussions on garage slabs but I'm hoping a simple outline will be helpful to those who haven't done a lot of concrete work and are getting ready to place a slab. So let’s lay out the basics that will give the average guy a good shot at a great slab. Base - What’s...

www.garagejournal.com

 

[Jack of all trades]

I’ve gotten 4-5 estimates and no he wasn’t the cheapest I always throw out the cheapest and the highest also I hired this guy to pour my driveway it looked good then hired another crew to pour a second driveway and it was a mess then this guy did this in my garage and I looked. At where the truck broke driveway it’s cause this guy poured a driveway that varies some places 3 1/2 inches but where truck broke was 2 inches!!!! I asked about rebar in driveway he said you don’t need it same with garage all been a waste of a lot of money

 

[Jack of all trades]

The link is in my signature line below and is a sticky in the Flooring forum.

Approximately how thick is is the concrete that's in place? You'd be fine to add three or four inches of concrete at the high point. Maybe you could get by with a 5 1/2" slab and a single additional plate. It doesn't seem like this would create undue problems with the interior framing.

Just curious why you feel you'd be 'taking the hit'. It seems like this would be on your contractor.

So you a concrete contractor? And by adding to the top of this will be ok? Hold up? Not cause more problems down the rd? Thanks for your help

 

[Beemer]

I didn’t order concrete and I maybe I got a broken driveway and a mess in my garage

The craziest claims end up in court, justified or not.

 

[ConCretin]

So you a concrete contractor? And by adding to the top of this will be ok? Hold up? Not cause more problems down the rd? Thanks for your help

Yes. I've been a commercial/industrial concrete contractor for almost 30 years and worked for a large GC doing concrete for 10 years before that. First the obligatory disclaimer, there are obviously a lot of variables and I haven't seen your actual conditions. With that said, I'll mostly just reiterate what I've posted previously.

The situation is not ideal and a partial overlay will not be as good as a single placement -but- the margin is so small you'd likely never know the difference. If you can start over with no financial, legal or other negative impacts, that's what I'd do.

If not, I'd proceed as follows; I'd want a minimum of 3" of overlay at the high point of the existing fill. The rough texture of the existing concrete should provide an adequate bond but at a minimum, I'd fully saturate (no standing water) the existing concrete before placing the overlay. A step better would be a spray on bonding agent such as Weld-crete to improve the bond. There are more effective bonding agents available but it starts to get complicated, expensive and unnecessary.

If done properly, you'll end up with a perfectly serviceable slab that will behave very similarly to one placed monolithically. If you found my Guide to Floor Slabs, you'll know some of the other steps to follow to avoid new problems.

The biggest risk of an overlay that comes to mind is crack control. A slab as big as yours will very likely develop shrinkage cracks. They are typically hidden in the bottom of saw cut or tooled control joints. In your case, parts of the slab will be bonded to hardened concrete that may already have shrinkage cracks and there is no guarantee new cracks will occur where you want them. Random visible cracks aren't uncommon in new slabs and are an aesthetic rather than a structural issue.

I hope that helps.

 

[Jack of all trades]

Yes. I've been a commercial/industrial concrete contractor for almost 30 years and worked for a large GC doing concrete for 10 years before that. First the obligatory disclaimer, there are obviously a lot of variables and I haven't seen your actual conditions. With that said, I'll mostly just reiterate what I've posted previously.

The situation is not ideal and a partial overlay will not be as good as a single placement -but- the margin is so small you'd likely never know the difference. If you can start over with no financial, legal or other negative impacts, that's what I'd do.

If not, I'd proceed as follows; I'd want a minimum of 3" of overlay at the high point of the existing fill. The rough texture of the existing concrete should provide an adequate bond but at a minimum, I'd fully saturate (no standing water) the existing concrete before placing the overlay. A step better would be a spray on bonding agent such as Weld-crete to improve the bond. There are more effective bonding agents available but it starts to get complicated, expensive and unnecessary.

If done properly, you'll end up with a perfectly serviceable slab that will behave very similarly to one placed monolithically. If you found my Guide to Floor Slabs, you'll know some of the other steps to follow to avoid new problems.

The biggest risk of an overlay that comes to mind is crack control. A slab as big as yours will very likely develop shrinkage cracks. They are typically hidden in the bottom of saw cut or tooled control joints. In your case, parts of the slab will be bonded to hardened concrete that may already have shrinkage cracks and there is no guarantee new cracks will occur where you want them. Random visible cracks aren't uncommon in new slabs and are an aesthetic rather than a structural issue.

I hope that helps.

Thank you for all the info and help and taking the time to write that out.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I’ve gotten 4-5 estimates and no he wasn’t the cheapest I always throw out the cheapest and the highest also I hired this guy to pour my driveway it looked good then hired another crew to pour a second driveway and it was a mess then this guy did this in my garage and I looked. At where the truck broke driveway it’s cause this guy poured a driveway that varies some places 3 1/2 inches but where truck broke was 2 inches!!!! I asked about rebar in driveway he said you don’t need it same with garage all been a waste of a lot of money

Same guy poured the 2" driveway and slopped the mess in the new build ?

 

[Jack of all trades]

Same guy poured the 2" driveway and slopped the mess in the new build ?

Yes but didn’t notice the driveway till the concrete truck broke it trying to get to garage he slopped that mess cause he didn’t want to get stuck with 2100 dollar concrete that he couldn’t get to site he was supposed to come by Sunday to look everything over for pour Monday morning but he called and said they wanted to book out that he’d come over early Monday morning to make sure we ready wow what a mess money down drain