Conventional heaters wont work,need alternatives.

[2drx4]

They are also very effective in colder climates now to temps below zero.

Not using an air-to-air setup. Most of them hit a 1.0 HSPF/COP at about -18* Celsius/0* F. Maybe some are better now. Also, the coils will build ice below freezing, and the system will have to reverse itself to remove the ice on a periodic basis.

Maybe your idea of a 'colder climate' isn't the same as mine.

Disclaimer: My research may be totally wrong...

 

[jonesmechanical]

Yes, some do, many do much better, even in the 3-4 range in freezing weather. Climate is one of the first considerations when considering a air to air heat pump, and if its that cold during the winter, air conditioning is likely not much of priority.

Here in Utah, we have winter weather, but its not extreme. Average temps are at freezing during the winter.

If your only energy options are propane and electricity, a air to air heat pump has to be at the top of the list of things to consider. A COP of 1.0 (not that hard to achieve) only means it only matches the efficiency of the resistance heating system (and in this guys area, the dollar cost of propane also). As the temps go up, it only gets exponentially better from there in the running costs.

All the engineering data is out there. It is just simple math. A bit more complex than calculating miles to the gallon in a car, but not much.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

With all new or old construction you start every HVAC project with a proper heat load determined by specific construction, indoor and outdoor design temperature and in the case of radiant floor heating, the distribution system. Radiant floor heating lowers heat load.

Once you have the load and the heating type you can choose an appliance based on the cost of available fuel and the added cost of installation to get an idea of return on investment. Where radiant floor heating is concerned the return may not be all monetary as people will pay for comfort if they know what it is.

 

[brokenknee]

Although many do, It is illegal to use a solid fuel heating device in a residential/commercial "garage".

Illegal? Not in MN, at least not in my area; that being said some insurance companies may choose not to cover you. But that is another issue.

Here is a good online fuel comparison chart that allows you to factor in fuel cost and efficiency rates of the appliance.

http://pelletheat.org/pellets/compare-fuel-costs/

 

[Highbeam]

Yes, it is illegal. Even in MN. So is speeding but that doesn't mean that every cop will pull you over for it.

The national fire code prohibits solid fuel heaters in garages.

 

[Highbeam]

Illegal? Not in MN, at least not in my area; that being said some insurance companies may choose not to cover you. But that is another issue.

Here is a good online fuel comparison chart that allows you to factor in fuel cost and efficiency rates of the appliance.

http://pelletheat.org/pellets/compare-fuel-costs/

That's a great calculator, it actually updates as you type so you can make quick adjustments. Like determining that I would need a 90% efficient propane heater before using propane breaks even with electric.

Note that electric heat at 300% efficiency such as from a heat pump is cheaper than even NG. At least in my area.

I'm starting to think that electric is the way to go. The proof is in the numbers.

 

[Mike007]

Ive been told in some jurisdictions straight electric heat is not allowed by code. The same thing is happening with electric water heaters as well.

 

[Gary S]

Just how big would your "big heater" be? That will determine whether you can run it or not. I have a 1150 sq ft garage and 9kw of electric heaters. They run off my 100 amp service with no issues.

 

[Everett]

i was gonna say some like mayby the sun, as in skylights go solar on wall, solar panels on top too heat the water for the boiler and fan forced radent heat.

 

[2drx4]

Ive been told in some jurisdictions straight electric heat is not allowed by code. The same thing is happening with electric water heaters as well.

How does that make any sense?

If the power goes out, your oil/NG/LP furnace/boiler/space heater or pellet stove doesn't work anyways. About the only thing that still does is a wood stove.

Or is that entirely a response to over-consumption of electricity?

 

[Mike007]

How does that make any sense?

If the power goes out, your oil/NG/LP furnace/boiler/space heater or pellet stove doesn't work anyways. About the only thing that still does is a wood stove.

Or is that entirely a response to over-consumption of electricity?

Exactly. This is not something Ive seen written in stone though. It was being talked about at a trade meeting I attended.

 

[toyotadriver]

Wood burning stoves in a garage aren't illegal where I live.

I also recommend the Mr Heater type propane/NG heater.

 

[toyotadriver]

Yes, it is illegal. Even in MN. So is speeding but that doesn't mean that every cop will pull you over for it.

The national fire code prohibits solid fuel heaters in garages.

A code is a recommendation. If your jurisdiction decides that they want to enforce it as a law...then they do so. Mine does not enforce any fire codes...or any building codes for that matter. So, it is NOT law everywhere.

 

[dave67fd]

A code is a recommendation. If your jurisdiction decides that they want to enforce it as a law...then they do so. Mine does not enforce any fire codes...or any building codes for that matter. So, it is NOT law everywhere.

***** to be you..

 

[toyotadriver]

***** to be you..

Actually, it's pretty nice.

 

[Highbeam]

Actually, it's pretty nice.

It might seem that way at first. I doubt that is actually the case though.

Most laws/codes/regulations are actually a good thing. There are some bad ones but overall it is a benefit to all of us to have regulation.

 

[Mike007]

It might seem that way at first. I doubt that is actually the case though.

Most laws/codes/regulations are actually a good thing. There are some bad ones but overall it is a benefit to all of us to have regulation.

As annoying and frustrating I find dealing with building permits, I gotta agree we need them. I caught a story a few weeks ago on the news, some guy on Long Island NY decides to add a story to his home without permits. Apparently he was clueless because a whole floor collapsed onto another where people were. Now imagine if you were a poor sap who bought this house this idiot did his own work in that was never inspected.

 

[toyotadriver]

I would make further comments but that would be departing from the original intent of this thread by the OP.

I have not actually checked the current draw of my 45k BTU Mr. Heater but I can run it with a 1500 watt generator just fine. So, the current draw is very small.

 

[KPSquared]

Why not just run a radiant tube? They work awesome in a small space. My radiant tube sales guy has one in a tiny single car garage. I just picked up a 75000 btu 20 footer for my 30x36x12.

They make them small. They are efficient. Little power draw. Clearances aren't hard to meet.

Did I miss something in this thread why this wouldn't work? No fan, no noise, no dusty mess.

 

[dave67fd]

Why not just run a radiant tube? They work awesome in a small space. My radiant tube sales guy has one in a tiny single car garage. I just picked up a 75000 btu 20 footer for my 30x36x12.

KPS,
If you don't mind me asking, what was the cost of your radiant including installation unless you did it yourself ?

 

[KPSquared]

Right now it's sitting in my garage awaiting install. I'll be doing it myself but it's super simple. Even if you have to pay a guy to run some black pipe, it shouldn't cost that much.

I got a smokin deal on it. Retail on what I got is $2200. . .paid about a grand less than that.

 

[brokenknee]

A code is a recommendation. If your jurisdiction decides that they want to enforce it as a law...then they do so. Mine does not enforce any fire codes...or any building codes for that matter. So, it is NOT law everywhere.

1+

Yep, here they leave it up to the insurance companies as it should be. It is all about risk. I have a wood furnace, when I purchased the house the insurance agent came out to inspect it, and took pictures. I had to put some tin up on the ceiling the previous owner had taken down for what ever reason before he would cover using the wood furnace. I put it up, pay a $50.00 a year extra to burn wood.

 

[dave67fd]

Here, they use proffesionals for code enforcement. We have a building and electrical inspectors and the fire chief takes care of the fire codes (heaters/fireplaces etc..). Insurance agents know insurance buisness. I find it hard to believe that most if not all insurance agents know all the different building/fire codes for each application. I understand if the insurance agent passes it it will then be insured but i couldn't sleep at night knowing my agent didn't have clue about what Joe shmoe just installed.

I also know some inspectors can and are sometimes clueless. There was a Big Maxx thread on here some time ago where a guy did his own propane install, had it inspected and passed. You could clearly see the OP had installed a air/water ball valve for his shut-off instead of a gas valve. Makes you wonder more people don't blow themselves up.

 

[lessersivad]

ok guys i am planning on building 14'x 30'garage starting in june.I was talking to my electrician yesterday and after going through entire house's electric load,he strongly thinks i would not have enough left over amperage to run big heaters (mr freeze,etc) as it would put me over 200amp service that i currently have. He thinks by the time i get whole shop wired for hoist,welder,compressor,extra shop lights,etc there would be no room for ceiling mounted heater box as i originally had planned to install.

What are my options here?do you think radiat heat is the way to go even in a small shop? I personally thought(correct me if i am wrong) ceiling mounted heater would heat up small shop very quick compared to in floor heat...especially in a small shop i am planning to build.

Also i should mention that garage already has its own dedicated hot/cold water supply off of main house boiler(boiler is good for 7000sq.ft house), does a shop need to have its own separate boiler system or i can use same boiler from the main house?

Maybe I missed it but how far away is the garage going to be from the house?

Also, how many square feet is your house? (Being you mention the boiler is good for 7000 sq. foot house.)

IMHO, if the garage is going to be fairly close to the house and the total sq. footage of the house/garage isn't going to total near 7000 sq. ft. then I would opt for running radiant floor heat off of the house boiler.

As was stated, once you get the slab o' concrete up to temp it'll stay warm for quite a long time. Plus you'll have the added benefit of having a warm garage when you step into it without the "warm up time".

This will allow you to get on with the task at hand without the "thumb twiddling time" waiting for a warm shop.

This is only my opinion and your mileage may vary.

Heck, as an after thought, if you don't want the floor heat just find an old iron radiator from a salvage yard or remodel, and place a small fan behind it to help push the heat through the shop.

Another option. No electricity required but a gas line would have to be run.

http://www.mrheater.com/product.aspx?catid=50&id=41

 

[Sureshot]

Right now it's sitting in my garage awaiting install. I'll be doing it myself but it's super simple. Even if you have to pay a guy to run some black pipe, it shouldn't cost that much.

I got a smokin deal on it. Retail on what I got is $2200. . .paid about a grand less than that.

Go up in the attic and feel your rafters above the radiant heater. I did once and was shocked at how hot they were and how far up. I would definitely put a layer of tin with an air gap on the wall/ceiling by it. Mine was mounted in the front angled back in the shop.

I myself would stear away from that type of heat if possible in the future. I found it extremely dry as in nose bleed dry in the shop. To do it over again I guess I needed a humidifier.

We have a small nat gas boiler in our attached garage(26x28x10) that heats the house via a heat exchanger in a forced air furnace. I have the water lines uninsulated and run across the ceiling. That alone keeps the garage decent. The pump runs all the time and the furnace fan is on the thermostat. We find the house much more comfy with that heat than with the oil burner. The furnace does much longer on/off cycles utilizing the thermal mass of the house IMHO.

I rigged up a heater core with a squirrel cage fan monted to it for the garage but have never got it wired in. It got 'bumped' on the todo list about 10 yrs ago when the exposed lines worked so good. Maybe for next winter I will complete that project or take it out.

 

[jonesmechanical]

Ive been told in some jurisdictions straight electric heat is not allowed by code. The same thing is happening with electric water heaters as well.

You are correct. The type of heating that is banned in many areas for a primary heating source is Straight electric strip heating or also known as resistance heating. This is the least efficient heating source when using electricity. It is the base line for creating Heat Pump or other types of Electrically driven heating efficiency.

Strip heating is still widely used as a back up source for heat pump systems.

Just lately we have been installing and designing larger Heat pump systems (mostly Mitsubishi City Multi) for Commercial and Large Residential Projects. They utilize up to a 20 ton single outdoor unit. The units have the ability to load share within the building. So, essentially, it can heat and cool at the same time. If there is a room that needs cooling and another that needs heating at the same time, it can take heat from one area and give to another.

Also, even though the outdoor unit is very large, you can have dozens of individual zones that can range anywhere from a fraction of a ton, up to 8 tons. Even in Mountain areas like Park City, they are effective and have been used as the primary heating source.

Like it has been state already, design and equipment application is critical. If you simply select a system that is designed for the load, you will have a effective heating solution. From there, selecting something that fits your needs of up front costs, running costs, and future replacement costs is the next step. The most important thing in the end, is that you have someone that is qualified to do the work in a way that doesn't compromise efficiency, reliability, or effectiveness of the selected equipment. More often than not, systems are not installed correctly.