Convert 220 to 110 ?

[4everRS]

Convert 240 to 120 ?

Hi all. I live next to a river in central MN and use a sprinkler pump for my irrigation system, sucking water from the river. It uses a 220v circuit with the plug pictured below:

I have made an ice rink on the river which is a lot of fun. However, when it gets dark, the fun is over. And as many of you know, it's dark pretty early. Sooo, to extend the use time, I'd like to run a couple 500 watt halogens. I'd love to be able to use that power source as its so close, but not sure if its possible.

Keep in mind I want to use my sprinkler pump starting in the spring. Can I use some kind of step down voltage converter.

Is it possible? (And hopefully without digging into the electrical box)

 

[G_P]

Yeah you will need to find a decent sized stepdown transformer as you only have 2 hots and a ground. No neutral.

But open the box anyway. They may have run a neutral out there but capped it off.

Or go on CL and find a 220v floodlight.

sent from the toilet via tapatalk 2.

 

[pattenp]

Technically the outlet is 250V/125V but was most likely not wired that way. It is an old style ungrounded outlet. The dogleg prong is actually for the neutral. If you are lucky and the wire is UF and the ground/neutral is insulated and the metal conduit is connected/grounded back at the source panel technically you already have 110V at the outlet by using one leg of the 220V and the dogleg prong as the neutral. You will need to make an adapter plug with a pigtail to the case for a ground. This is all subject to the way the outlet is wired.

 

[nehog]

Maybe look for some (surplus) Halide lamps that run on 240 volts?

 

[Jose G]

maybe the white wire is in the box not connected... have a look.. Then you could just change the box and add 1 or 2 110v outlet. In the summer, just use the 220v one... and in the winter, use the 110v...

 

[Charles (in GA)]

As noted a couple of Metal halide 400 watt floods on some posts would work nice. Probably find some used ones on Craigslist.

They would need to have ballast capable of 240v, either straight 240v or a multitap ballast.

Charles

 

[jvitez]

Yeah, your pump is in all probability a dedicated 240V unit, so no need for a neutral wire. But sometimes a larger 2 conductor wire is more expensive than a 3 conductor, so they might have run that (or sometimes just what the electrician has on his truck). So open the box and see if there's a white wire. If so you can add a 120V plug.

 

[4everRS]

Those type of lights would work good. However, upon further thought, I would prefer to step down the voltage. I may want to run a small utility pump as well to maintain the rink with new water/ice. Great ideas though.

I will check my panel tonight and have a look tonight. I know the wire is the gray, flat, UF wire. The home was built in 2005 and irrigation system in 2006.

 

[nehog]

If you find there is a neutral (white) wire in the cable, make sure it is attached to the neutral buss in the panel before trying to use it! It would be possible that whoever installed the circuit used the correct cable but didn't bother to connect the neutral. (And just hope they didn't foolishly cut it off short!)

 

[rsanter]

Stick a volt-ohm meter on that. Most 240 circuits are just 2 120 circuit legs. If this is what yours is than you can get another plug and a piece of wore to a box that will have 2 separate 120 plugs

Either that of get a couple of 240 light fixtures and bulbs

Bob

 

[lametec]

For the lights, connect the two fixtures in series.

Get a plug that goes into the outlet, a piece of two-plus-ground wire and a 2-up receptacle. On the receptacle, break off the tab that connect the two receptacles together on the hot terminal side, then apply your 240V to the two hot terminals.

Plug a light into each receptacle, and voila, you have light. At least until one bulb goes out, then you won't have any light.

Won't pass any code inspections, but it'll work.

Know what you're doing if you try this. If not, it might be the last thing you do.

 

[4everRS]

Plug a light into each receptacle, and voila, you have light. At least until one bulb goes out, then you won't have any light.

Audibly laughed.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

For the lights, connect the two fixtures in series.

Get a plug that goes into the outlet, a piece of two-plus-ground wire and a 2-up receptacle. On the receptacle, break off the tab that connect the two receptacles together on the hot terminal side, then apply your 240V to the two hot terminals.

Plug a light into each receptacle, and voila, you have light. At least until one bulb goes out, then you won't have any light.

Won't pass any code inspections, but it'll work.

Know what you're doing if you try this. If not, it might be the last thing you do.

I did this for a friend. She had me run a new wire underground to a new well she had drilled. I ran two hots and a ground for 240v. A few months later, after she had a guy build a little house over the well and tank, and winter came, she realized it needed to be heated, and I realized that I had not provided for a neutral. I took a piece of treated 2x6 and routed a pathway for wires and screwed two porcelin lamp sockets to it with a cord wired in SERIES and a NEMA 6-15 plug I had in the junk box. I wired a piece of cord and a NEMA 6-15 female connector to the hot side of the pressure switch and that way she could plug and unplug the light when needed.

Charles

 

[4everRS]

Just saw this on amazon

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000IUL9P2/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Would this work, with the correct plug of course?

 

[madosta]

Where does the return 120v current go if there's no neutral?

 

[Zeke]

Just saw this on amazon



Would this work, with the correct plug of course?

That's not what you think it is. Not a 240v to two 120v plugs anyway.
It's a 120v twist lock adapter with 2 plugs.

 

[4everRS]

That's not what you think it is. Not a 240v to two 120v plugs anyway.
It's a 120v twist lock adapter with 2 plugs.

Thank you. My mistake.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Stick a volt-ohm meter on that. Most 240 circuits are just 2 120 circuit legs. If this is what yours is than you can get another plug and a piece of wore to a box that will have 2 separate 120 plugs

Either that of get a couple of 240 light fixtures and bulbs

Bob

NOT quite. What you suggest is NOT legal and NOT safe.

A 240V circuit is two 120V legs, but it is NOT necessarily two 120V circuits. For two 120V circuits you'd need two hots, a neutral and a ground.
If this circuit is straight 240V for a pump then there is either no neutral, or they used the neutral as a ground and there is no ground.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Where does the return 120v current go if there's no neutral?

If this is a straight 240V circuit there is NO 120V "return" current.

 

[budss396]

??? the 220v circuit uses 3 wires + a ground.
2 wires are 110V
1 wire is a neutral
1 wire is the ground

both of the wires are tied together to get 220v so if you tap 1 of the power wires and use the neutral and the ground you would have a 110v circuit

 

[4everRS]

Alright guys. I checked the wiring. It is 10/3 with ground.

Here are a couple shots of the panel

The white is connected to the ground bar(is this called the neutral buss?) Also, there is a pump start relay on the circuit. Not sure if this will be a problem or a non-issue?

So, I am thinking I may be able to change the plug outside, to a 4 prong and then split it?

What'ya think?

 

[Speedy Petey]

??? the 220v circuit uses 3 wires + a ground.
2 wires are 110V
1 wire is a neutral
1 wire is the ground

both of the wires are tied together to get 220v so if you tap 1 of the power wires and use the neutral and the ground you would have a 110v circuit

"220 circuit"???
Well, a 240v circuit uses two hots and a ground.
A 120/240V circuit uses two hots, a neutral and a ground.
Some older 120/240V circuits (ranges and electric dryers) used two hots and a neutral, with no separate ground.

The one in the pic in post #1 is an older dryer receptacle. It is HIGHLY doubtful that they ran 4-wires to this. Most likely they are simply using that receptacles as a straight 240V receptacle.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Alright guys. I checked the wiring. It is 10/3 with ground.

Wow! Score! You got lucky.

So, I am thinking I may be able to change the plug outside, to a 4 prong and then split it?

Sounds like a plan.

What'ya think?

I think you need to replace that 50A breaker with a 30A.

 

[ishiboo]

As Petey said, the breaker is 20A too large for that wire.

The pump relay is 1-2HP, so 50A would never have been needed for that particular pump. You will be fine leaving the pump relay in the picture, however its job is to turn on the big pump with a small 24V signal when sprinkling is called for, so you will need to use the sprinkler timer to activate power out there. This could be good as the ice rink lights could automatically go on at night

If you want to have an outlet out there, you will need it breakered at 20A... you can do that in the panel or at a transition point with a breaker outside.

 

[pattenp]

Am I missing something.... the 10/3 goes to the start pump relay. What is the cable coming out of the relay? Is it 10/3 also? Looks like the 10/3 is used because of the timer.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Yes, change the receptacle to a 30 amp four prong. Install a matching plug on the pump cord connecting the pump to the two hots and the ground. Then make a splitter box with a matching plug, cord and two 120v receptacles sharing the neutral.

You can also buy something similar to the one 4everRS posted that is actually designed to split a 240 into two 120v, although they seem to be rather expensive and you would still have to replace the plug.

If you happen to own a generator..... with a 30 amp 240v twist lock, it is a L14-30 and if you have a extension cord for the generator, you may want to install twist locks in the box and on the cord to allow you to utilize this extension cord.

And yes, replace that breaker with a 30 amp, unless the pump blows the 30 on startup, in which case you may need to upsize it.

www.fruitridgetools.com is a very good source for receptacles and plugs cheap. I just ordered some cord plugs and connectors including a L14-30 receptacle to allow me to use my generator extension cords with the welder.

Charles

 

[justsam]

Is the only place that 10/3 goes from the panel is to the pump relay box, and then to your outdoor outlet?

If so, you need to open up that relay box, and confirm that the white wire from the panel is tied to the white wire coming from the outdoor outlet. In your current install it should not be connected to the relay in any way, put MUST be passed through to the new outdoor outlets to get 120v.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Am I missing something.... the 10/3 goes to the start pump relay. What is the cable coming out of the relay? Is it 10/3 also? Looks like the 10/3 is used because of the timer.

He needs to open the start relay and make sure that the neutral passes thru to the output wire, and open the outdoor receptacle to make sure that there is enough white wire to work with (may have to move the receptacle to get more wire).

Charles

 

[Jose G]

To be able to use your lights right now... just change the outside box (buy a bigger one where you can put your existing 3 prongs 240v and just add one 120v or 2 outlet) Just buy a big outside box.

and when you have the time, change the breaker, 50A is too much for a 10 gauges wires, you shoulf use a 6 gauges wire for 50A, just keep the 50A breaker when you'll want to add a welder plug in your garage (you can let it in the planel unhook until you want to use it)

 

[4everRS]

To be able to use your lights right now... just change the outside box (buy a bigger one where you can put your existing 3 prongs 240v and just add one 120v or 2 outlet) Just buy a big outside box.

and when you have the time, change the breaker, 50A is too much for a 10 gauges wires, you shoulf use a 6 gauges wire for 50A, just keep the 50A breaker when you'll want to add a welder plug in your garage (you can let it in the planel unhook until you want to use it)

How would I wire the box that had a 240 and a 120 receptacle?

 

[4everRS]

How would I wire the box that had a 240 and a 120 receptacle?

Nevermind.

#notthinkingstraight

 

[Speedy Petey]

To be able to use your lights right now... just change the outside box (buy a bigger one where you can put your existing 3 prongs 240v and just add one 120v or 2 outlet) Just buy a big outside box.

This is NOT code and is not OK.

A standard 15 or 20 amp receptacle CANNOT be protected by a 30A breaker, which is assume he needs due to the pump size.
He needs to somehow and somewhere drop down to a 20A breaker for the 120V receptacle.

 

[4everRS]

Ok guys. I want to use this year after year. I guess it's temporary in the fact that I will use it seasonally, but it will be every season. I prefer to do this the correct way. Maybe I'm a wuss. If it were something to get me by for a coupe weeks, I may be more inclined to cut a corner.

How about something like the pic below.

Can I keep a 30 amp breaker in the panel, and use 20 amp breakers in a "portable" box I can keep outside. I understand I would need a version that can be used outdoors. This one is also more than what I need. All I want is something with a duplex receptacle. If this seems good, where do I find an outdoor version, I could mount on a 2x4.

 

[lametec]

This should work:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/350589942297

 

[madosta]

Hmmm, you'd have to replace the 30amp 120v with a double pole and appropriate wiring/receptacle, but yea, that's not a bad idea!

 

[madosta]

LOL, all this work just for some lights?

Wonder if OP has just been using the ground as a neutral... lol tsk tsk.

 

[4everRS]

LOL, all this work just for some lights?

Wonder if OP has just been using the ground as a neutral... lol tsk tsk.

Haha. I have yet to do any of the work. I would hardly say snapping a couple pic and posting them is a lot of work. What a great forum to ask these questions to! Thanks a bunch guys.

Hockey is a big deal here in MN! I've even pondered having a little warming shack down there! (That's mostly a joke, but I do think itd be great)

Again, thanks everyone for the valuable input.

 

[VHF]

The idea of using a pre-made RV panel is interesting. As already mentioned, you'd need to replace the 120V 30A TT ("travel trailer") recepticle with something more appropirate for your irrigation pump and put in a 30A 240V double breaker, but this gives you a weather-ready panel with weather-protected "in-use" recepticles.

You should change the plug you use for the irrigation pump to something other than the old-style 3-conductor 30A dryer recepticle. Options include:

14-30R -- 4-conductor 30A dryer recepticle (your pump wouldn't use the neutral)
6-30R -- 3-conductor 240V no neutral (used for some welders, heaters, compressors)
L6-30R -- 3-conductor 240V in a twist lock

Twist lock might be tempting for the irrigation pump, however, twist-lock plugs don't typically come in a right angle plug and might not fit under the closed weather cover. If using the RV panel above, you'd also want a recepticle that would fit the hole in place of the TT recepticle.

 

[Jose G]

This is NOT code and is not OK.

A standard 15 or 20 amp receptacle CANNOT be protected by a 30A breaker, which is assume he needs due to the pump size.
He needs to somehow and somewhere drop down to a 20A breaker for the 120V receptacle.

i did not get into detail but he could install a L5-30R (or 2) with an adapter to 5-15R/20R... no need to install another breaker for the 110v. However, he needs to change the panel breaker sometime soon. (still, its wired this way for a long time, there is no rush, the end of the world is not at his door...but he HAS to do it)

if he ever sell the property, just rewire the 240v outlet alone..

so many way to do it... the TT receptacle is a great idea and probably the best for outdoor use.