COO vs. Local retailer

[Yankee]

The improvement of the Craftsman wrenches (I like to call them "Generation 2 Chinese" ) has made me think about future tool purchases. (Yes, I have been in the past a loyal Craftsman buyer up until they went overseas) If they get the quality back to where it was, would I still buy online to purchase Made in USA or support the local Sears Hometown store and Ace Hardware that's just down the street... A difficult question to answer since both options affect American jobs. This can also include other brands of tools. Made in USA or Asian from Local retailers. It's a no brainier to buy USA from a local retailer, but if you had to chose.....

I hope people who would respond on this thread would be able to express their opinions while respecting others that may differ. If not, (Moderator) please kill this thread because I hate the bashing back and forth as much as you do....

 

[Chevy350]

I told my local Sears manager in a very nice conversation that they would I would not be purchasing any Chinese made C-man tools. She thanked me for the input and said the decision comes from much higher sources. I told her if I was going to buy imported stuff it would be from Harbor Freight for a fraction of the price.

I will gladly pay and buy a US made quality tool/product from to keep someone employed at a company that wants to survive rather than a company that will not listen to its customers.

 

[firebox40dash5]

Sorry, but it's not my job to prop up any business who is making poor decisions. I've all but stopped buying hand tools from Ace... although I hardly bought any there to start, and I give them plenty of other business. If they wanted to bring SK or Armstrong or something in, I'd probably buy more than I did before.

As far as Craftsman and Sears in general, screw 'em. They've been circling the drain for years. If the attitudes of about 90% of the employees I've met are any indication, no wonder. I might feel bad about them losing their jobs, but most of them act as if they don't want them. I couldn't sell a good product with assholes like that, let alone trying to peddle junk at mediocre prices. As said above, they put themselves in a pricing bind. There was a pretty clear changeover from domestic to imported, and there's years of pricing references on their products. Emotion aside, they killed the quality, and kept the price the same. What informed consumer would buy that? They had a huge advantage, with a household name and about the only US-made, nationally available, reasonably priced tool line you could walk into a store and buy. They totally screwed that up, and I think a lot of the reason was an attempt to prop up their other unprofitable segments. Even if the quality returns, there are other options with that same quality, possibly made in the same factory, at lower prices, and usually with better service.

 

[Tucko]

I do what I can to buy USA made goods and products from local stores. What pisses me off is oftentimes not even having the choice because the item I want isn't made in the USA at all. Are there any Made in USA power tools anymore? Impact drivers, cordless tools, etc? Some items can be bought with great effort, like Made in USA clothing. I always try to use the Made in USA websites that are out there. Many of them have a long list of US products in many different categories, however actually finding them in a brick and mortar store can be hard.

 

[BFHtime]

Tucko, please post a link. TiA

 

[Super Sport]

I think that manufacturing jobs are more important than retail jobs, so my support goes with COO over local retailers. Plus, retailers often have a choice of selling USA-made goods or imported goods. I don't blame them if they opt to sell cheaper goods for lower prices, as that is what the majority prefers. That's just not what I prefer, so I'll take my money elsewhere.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

IMO The quality of Craftsman tools fell before they moved a lot of it out of country. Seems that if you walk in to a store with a tool in your hand you can't find anyone that works there. Even if I did find someone working there they had some excuse (usually we don't have that in stock). I won't even visit their stores to attempt to return tools with "lifetime" warranty.

 

[Zbrums]

Unfortunately where I reside my choices are so limited I don't really have a choice. We have a sears and a lowes, neither of which are pleasant to be in. We have two Snap-on trucks also but I don't turn wrenches for a living so they aren't very interested in my business.

I usually just go to sears but the employees **** and finding a made in USA anything is a gamble now.

 

[Aberdale]

I don't know.

I'll make the choice on a case-by-case basis, depending on my needs at the time.

I'm growing weary over the whole COO argument over the last 10 years. At this point, I could pretty much care less where things are made, or by who. It doesn't matter to me any more. And based on the number of foreign cars, motorcycles, appliances, clothes, electronics, tools, and even food, no one else seems to care either. The way I see it, is we buy stuff from them. They make money, and then buy stuff from us. It's called trade. And it's been going on since before the silk/spice road was established between Europe and China in the 4th century.

What does matter to me is buying quality products that last. I feel pride in supporting a manufacturer of quality goods, and I will continue to support manufacturers that promote quality and value above all else, regardless whether they are in the United States, Canada, Mexico, England, Germany, Spain, Italy, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, China, India, or Zimbabwe.

As a matter of fact, I own some excellent quality tools from every country that I listed. (Okay . . . I don't have any tools made in Zimbabwe, or at least I don't think so.)

To all of you purchasers that choose buying American regardless of quality, good for you. If it makes you feel better, great. If it saves an American job, great. If it gives you civic pride, great. There's nothing wrong with that if that's what torques your nut.

I just don't need one more level of complication in making a purchase decision. For me, it's enough work just trying to base the decision on quality and value.

'dale

 

[bobemmerich]

I REFUSE to pay good $$$ on C-man tools that are made overseas. I would GLADLY pay the $$$ for C-man USA made tools. I can't justify why they're selling cheaper tools for the same amount of money that you can buy a US made tool.
Case in point.
I was looking for a set of offset wrenches. The Sears I went to has them priced at 79.99. I can get a set of US made SK for slightly more. WTF???

 

[Spudland_Dave]

IMO The quality of Craftsman tools fell before they moved a lot of it out of country.

I was killing time the other day in Sears...first time in a real sears store in over a year and WOW...Circling the drain is a correct statement.
That being said...the new Chi-Com tools are probably BETTER then the USA Stuff especially towards the end of the USA Run.
Either way, I'm not loosing sleep over it...I quit sears/Craftsman a while back.

 

[Strouty]

At some point, there will be no more local retailer. I can see the future and it would be you order an item and then hit print. The item is delivered to your house via a printer. Amazon will probably be the first to do this, and they will subsidize the printers to start the market. It would save on shipping and warehousing costs. The printers need to get a little better and faster, but with technology, things move pretty fast. It will be the new amazon prime. Another way they could go about this would be to have the printers in house at select locations, they could be the new distribution hubs. The future is definitely not in a brick and mortar the way they are today. I can see stores becoming more of a library, we had a store that was like that years ago and it went out of business. Today it would be on the cutting edge. "Service Merchandise" was the store, you could walk through it like IKEA (only a lot smaller), when you found what you wanted, you took a tag to the register, paid for the item and then went over to the pick up area. After a few minutes your item came from out back and someone would confirm the purchase and you would be on your way.

 

[ibedayank]

if a local place has what I want at a resonable price I will buy from them if not I order it

 

[jfish]

I'm as busy as anyone these days. That is to say I'm as lazy as anyone and make excuses why I don't do the important things I should. That's why I love buying things online, I click, it comes to my door. EASY! With that said, it is exhausting to find the stuff I want to buy online because I want to be certain about the quality. Research, compare, read reviews, search garagejournal, compare price with s/h.....

I always go to the locally owned hardware franchise that is a few miles from my home, Mclendon hardware. If they have what I need I just buy it, no waiting for shipping. I am also a Milwaukee tool *****, whenever ever I can I buy second hand Milwaukee power tools that are made in USA. BUT, I still stand by ANY of the Chinese Milwaukee tools I've bought online. The few times a tool has failed me Milwaukee also stood behind it.

If Craftsman tools from China measure up, I'll buy them. Otherwise, my first priority it's quality, second is my budget. Where those two lines intersect is where I buy.

Let's face it, China is a modern country. With every technological and industrial advancement we have. Would it be so hard to believe that their country can build skyscrapers AND a decent tool? Not for me.

 

[joel63]

I choose made in USA any time I can.

With electronics, there's practically no choice.

 

[thinman]

There's only so much money in the budget for tools. Heavy use then Snap-on or S-K make sense. Truck box that mostly just rides around unopened then HF, Lowes, Sears tools all work. The warranty is not too critical on something that costs $10 or less.

The COO thing makes less and less sense, at least to me. Ram pickup manufacturing is now owned by Fiat. Italian made pickups seems odd to me but if you like high performance motorcycles a Ducati sounds cool and perfectly natural.

Competition in performance leads to the best performer -- in my tool neighborhood that's usually Snap-on. Competition in price leads to the cheapest available -- in my tool neighborhood that's usually HF. And so it goes from pickup trucks to cell phones or anything else.

 

[Davefr]

Let's face it, China is a modern country. With every technological and industrial advancement we have. Would it be so hard to believe that their country can build skyscrapers AND a decent tool? Not for me.

No, it's not hard to imagine that they couldn't produce world class tools ASSUMING higher costs were allowed.

However the move to China has been in pursuit of obtaining the absolute lowest possible cost first and foremost.

It would be interesting if someone approached the Chinese and asked for quality commensurate with best of class US. (SO, SK, Wright) and were willing to allow cost to rise to accomplish this goal. To my knowledge this has never been tried.

 

[zkling]

This topic has been beaten to death on numerous threads, so I know you didn't search but again.....

There is no alternative to the old craftsman you have you to give up something. Companies are in business to make money, plain and simple. Craftsman is probably realizing that so many people are bitching about the lobster claw china wrenches that they probably better do something otherwise they will loose more business and thus more money.

Realize that we are truly a global economy. Very rarely will 100% of your dollars spent stay in America. Yes even with products like Channellock and Snap On that pride themselves on USA made. I can guarantee a percentage of their money goes to a foreign producer somewhere along the line. The fact is we are a global economy and it is going to stay that way. Thinking otherwise is just foolish. Between a combination of what seems that everyone wants to be in management or a desk job and people want new goods super cheap, outsourcing is the only option for the bean counters.

I prefer to purchase used, not only does it fit into my budget, but I know that 100% of my dollars are going into American hands. What they do with them, who knows.

No, it's not hard to imagine that they couldn't produce world class tools ASSUMING higher costs were allowed.

However the move to China has been in pursuit of obtaining the absolute lowest possible cost first and foremost.

It would be interesting if someone approached the Chinese and asked for quality commensurate with best of class US. (SO, SK, Wright) and were willing to allow cost to rise to accomplish this goal. To my knowledge this has never been tried.

I wonder this as well. Even with their lack of safety regulations, why couldn't they produce products that were like USA produced goods in the 30-50's? Back when safety regulations weren't what they are today?

China is definitely a very interesting country. They have so many ambitious and intelligent people, yet so many horrendous problems. If you look through history China has never really prided itself on producing high quality goods though. Everything about their mentality towards manufacturing is disposable, yes sadly this includes the workers.

 

[cheechi]

No. The lobster claw change was 100% to save money on materials. More metal even if lesser quality is still more metal, so to save materials, shipping weight, etc they changed the tooling back to the original size and maybe also went with better steel.

I want these new wrenches to be at least good, if not 'just as good'. But I will not hold my breath on that.

The whole rest of this thread, whatever. It's been talked to death.

 

[Fretters]

Personally, I couldn't give two hoots where something comes from. Quality is quality. I most definitely would not help prop up some UK business, for example, who was turning out tat, just because they were a UK company.

As someone eluded to earlier, if that's the type of thing which give people a cosy feeling, then all well and good.Stick with that philosophy. Still doesn't mean one's getting better quality gear though.

If you look through history China has never really prided itself on producing high quality goods though.

I think you'll find that's grossly incorrect. Their antique porcelain products, for one example, are of the highest quality, and they were turning out quality gear whilst this country was still in the dark ages and centuries before your country, as we all know it now, even existed.

One also has to look at why countries like China, amongst others, are turning out cheap tat. Is it because that's all they can produce? Not by a long shot. If people wish to blame someone for the cheap tat flooding the markets, look no further than the people who buy that tat as well as the companies who constantly switch country of production just so that they can keep their costs down by having cheap tat produced for them through that which is little more than than slave labour.

 

[ibedayank]

Personally, I couldn't give two hoots where something comes from. Quality is quality. I most definitely would not help prop up some UK business, for example, who was turning out tat, just because they were a UK company.

As someone eluded to earlier, if that's the type of thing which give people a cosy feeling, then all well and good.Stick with that philosophy. Still doesn't mean one's getting better quality gear though.




I think you'll find that's grossly incorrect. Their antique porcelain products, for one example, are of the highest quality, and they were turning out quality gear whilst this country was still in the dark ages and centuries before your country, as we all know it now, even existed.

One also has to look at why countries like China, amongst others, are turning out cheap tat. Is it because that's all they can produce? Not by a long shot. If people wish to blame someone for the cheap tat flooding the markets, look no further than the people who buy that tat as well as the companies who constantly switch country of production just so that they can keep their costs down by having cheap tat produced for them through that which is little more than than slave labour.

People buy what is available you ******. Put more blame on owners and stockholders screaming for more profits at any cost. Better look into investment groups buying tool companies then what happens to them after said sale.

 

[Fretters]

People buy what is available you ******. Put more blame on owners and stockholders screaming for more profits at any cost. Better look into investment groups buying tool companies then what happens to them after said sale.

Well structured and composed response. I would point out the flaws in what you've said, but judging from the above, it's obvious the type of content, attitude and opinions this thread is going to generate, so I'll leave you to play with yourselves on this one.

 

[jfish]

EJECT! EJECT!

Wait...

MODS, CUT THE BLUE WIRE! or is it the red wire.

Now that this thread has derailed can we jack it and discuss something we can all agree on? Something fun like religion or politics?

 

[zkling]

I think you'll find that's grossly incorrect. Their antique porcelain products, for one example, are of the highest quality, and they were turning out quality gear whilst this country was still in the dark ages and centuries before your country, as we all know it now, even existed.

One also has to look at why countries like China, amongst others, are turning out cheap tat. Is it because that's all they can produce? Not by a long shot. If people wish to blame someone for the cheap tat flooding the markets, look no further than the people who buy that tat as well as the companies who constantly switch country of production just so that they can keep their costs down by having cheap tat produced for them through that which is little more than than slave labour.

Read again, I never said China wasn't capable of producing high quality products, but more so they are known for functional, somewhat crude, short service life products. Say 1900's till present. Sure they do have their exceptions like as you mentioned ceramic products, textiles, or their pioneer work in fireworks and explosives. If you look at semi modern mechanical products produced in China, I think you will find my statement holds true.

No. The lobster claw change was 100% to save money on materials. More metal even if lesser quality is still more metal, so to save materials, shipping weight, etc they changed the tooling back to the original size and maybe also went with better steel.

I want these new wrenches to be at least good, if not 'just as good'. But I will not hold my breath on that.

The whole rest of this thread, whatever. It's been talked to death.

Here is the thing, can you prove that? Companies have been known to go to great lengths just to appeal to consumers via marketing and product image.

 

[cheechi]

Companies, sure. Sears? hmmm. I can see where you say product image, as in photos that don't have lobster claws look better. Until someone uses one and confirms they are actually better than the claws, it's just a cosmetic change. I think at this point the burden of proof isn't with me, an engineer who knows how manufacturers will cut costs. It's with Sears, who wants to sell you something inferior with the same part number, packaging, and everything else.

Don't get me wrong I want them to be better. I want them to be even better than the USA ones at some point. But I'll wait it out.

 

[Tucko]

Tucko, please post a link. TiA

http://www.madeinusa.org/

There's one. A quick google search gives you a few more.

 

[Supe]

Personally, I couldn't give two hoots where something comes from. Quality is quality. I most definitely would not help prop up some UK business, for example, who was turning out tat, just because they were a UK

...and what significant industry does the UK have these days? What do you make? Not having a go but a service and banking based economy is not a solid foundation to develop the technologies of tomorrow which in turn creates new jobs. There's only so many barista jobs going around. With the U.S there's still industrial capacity and capability. I would view this as strategic to a nations long term economic health.

 

[zkling]

Companies, sure. Sears? hmmm. I can see where you say product image, as in photos that don't have lobster claws look better. Until someone uses one and confirms they are actually better than the claws, it's just a cosmetic change. I think at this point the burden of proof isn't with me, an engineer who knows how manufacturers will cut costs. It's with Sears, who wants to sell you something inferior with the same part number, packaging, and everything else.

Don't get me wrong I want them to be better. I want them to be even better than the USA ones at some point. But I'll wait it out.

Again, how do you know the new items are inferior to the old items? Do you have any solid test reports to back this statement? You, as an engineer should know that there different ways to strengthen a design, materials, geometry, volume, etc. The question is then why did they in the first place have to add bulk to the open end compared to the older USA made wrenches? Reduce raw stock quality, then beef it up with geometry to offset strength? Maybe the new non lobster claw china wrenches are of a better material quality and thus don't need the extra geometry. Maybe they just built then to tolerate less before deforming.

You also have to realize that the high product knowledge on this forum represents a very small percentage of Craftsman buyers. Say when Joe A goes in to exchange his old USA made wrench with a now china wrench, which one do you think he will pick a lobster claw or a non lobster claw based on visual inspection? Guy might think "Hum why is this one different than my old one?"

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

I'm not one of these people that tries to look too deeply into what ramifications every purchase decision I make will create. If you feel like every business transaction is a form of charity and you're not really making a decision based on value, I don't think you're really doing anybody a service.

 

[Askme42]

I think that manufacturing jobs are more important than retail jobs, so my support goes with COO over local retailers. Plus, retailers often have a choice of selling USA-made goods or imported goods. I don't blame them if they opt to sell cheaper goods for lower prices, as that is what the majority prefers. That's just not what I prefer, so I'll take my money elsewhere.

Pretty much exactly my thoughts.

All these stores have a choice in what they sell.

 

[cheechi]

...and what significant industry does the UK have these days?

I think you will find this enlightening


zkling you are misunderstanding what I meant. I'm not saying they can't, or they haven't improved. I'm saying until it is proven to be better, they haven't changed my mind about craftsman china. I want them to be better. I'm willing to admit they can be better. But they have to prove it to me.

And I will buy a HF tool before the equivalent chinese CM version. It's not solely about COO to me.

 

[Gregg33]

I always choose COO over the retailer. However I do prefer to support small businesses when possible, usually they are more helpful and knowledgeable and the prices (despite what many think) usually are competitive. Plus I have a philosophy that privately held companies and businesses are better to support than publicly traded companies as a rule. But if the "big boxes" have the products I want or if I need to buy something outside of bankers hours I will support them.

Almost all the tools I buy (other than power and cordless tools) are made in Canada or the U.S.. The same with groceries and building materials. But (as others in thread alluded to) for items like housewares, electronics and clothing it is often difficult, if not impossible to buy domestic made goods. But I do the best I can, sometimes I have to buy Mexican or Taiwan made goods, but that's still better than China imo.

 

[nicksnothereman]

The improvement of the Craftsman wrenches (I like to call them "Generation 2 Chinese" ) has made me think about future tool purchases. (Yes, I have been in the past a loyal Craftsman buyer up until they went overseas) If they get the quality back to where it was, would I still buy online to purchase Made in USA or support the local Sears Hometown store and Ace Hardware that's just down the street... A difficult question to answer since both options affect American jobs. This can also include other brands of tools. Made in USA or Asian from Local retailers. It's a no brainier to buy USA from a local retailer, but if you had to chose.....

I hope people who would respond on this thread would be able to express their opinions while respecting others that may differ. If not, (Moderator) please kill this thread because I hate the bashing back and forth as much as you do....

I tend to actually prefer the taiwanese stuff. Easier for me to find; price is right. I buy what's in my price range. Oddly, the stuff I use sporadically is mostly us. Quality wise the difference between the taiwanese stuff and the usa stuff (that I've bought; generally low(er) end stuff) is marginally different. I guess I'm the guy that buys duplicates or spends less for more options. I'd rather have more options than less; that's how I work. I'm pretty careful with my stuff so if I can't crack a bolt right away with a ratchet I'll go right to the heat gun and penetrating oil instead of laying into it.

 

[nti06]

Corporate greed has tossed the responsibility of providing quality goods out the window and are only concered with giving reach arounds to the share holders. I see it everyday.

 

[zkling]

Corporate greed has tossed the responsibility of providing quality goods out the window and are only concered with giving reach arounds to the share holders. I see it everyday.

It's not just corporate greed but consumer greed to be blamed as well.

 

[Davefr]

It's not just corporate greed but consumer greed to be blamed as well.

^^^ What he said. There's nothing retailer's would rather do then sell high end/quality USA goods because that's where the margin is.

The problem is that 99% of demand would go "****".

The typical American consumer has a love affair with cheap Chinese goods. Until that changes, retailers/manufacturers will do their best to provide cheap Chinese goods.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

I waved good bye to Craftsman as the boat sailed.

 

[Steinmetz]

It's not just corporate greed but consumer greed to be blamed as well.

Right. Nothing will change until Americans value high wage jobs more than low prices. And that will never happen.

 

[MackMan]

This is an interesting question. Here's my take.

A few years ago I considered Craftsman as acceptable quality, reasonably priced USA made tools. Sure they weren't Snap-On, but neither were they Harbor Freight. So here's the problem. In the years since, Craftsman quality has gone down, HF quality has gone up. Relative price has stayed pretty much stationary, now the "good" HF stuff is made in Tiawan, and Craftsman is made in the China. So I can get a better tool, made in a "more prestigious" location at a better price from HF. That's my problem with Craftsman.

When it comes to supporting the USA store, remember if you order online, there's still USA jobs affected. Amazon (or whoever) is still paying someone to pack and ship, etc and so on. Maybe lower impact work than a local store owner, but an American job nonetheless.

Personally the new stuff I've seen from Craftsman is about the lowest quality of any name-brand tools out there, so even if I would ignore COO I'd probably go KOBALT or Pittsburgh Pro.

As it is, I've mostly gone with used Snap-On.

 

[ibedayank]

Show us where all the high quality craftsman tools are like powertools cordless tools and hand tools that proudly bear and stand for QUALITY made in the USA??

If you can I will be happy to buy them as I did 20 years ago. Until that point better check the stock prices to see what is really going as since KMART bought SEARS out.

To have high paying jobs in the usa we have to keep making the stuff here NOT sending it overseas. Like danaher did when they bought Diamondtool and Horseshoe that put over 300 people out of work. That plant is now a parking lot.