Craftsman Drill Press

[HVACR1]

Good news for me! I got the chuck off of the spindle without screwing anything up. Remarkable. I tried a variety of different "tools" to insert into the holes on the chuck collar, punches, homemade grinded steel rod, all without success. I then pulled out my secret weapon, see the pic. A short screw that fit tight, along with a Phillips screwdriver pressing into the collar to help keep the screw in place, and that I could direct a hammer blow to very close to the collar, and viola it came loose. Frank's method of an allen wrench in the chuck and then tightened into a vise was the ticket. There is some amount of galling on the spindle surface. It doesn't look too serious to me. Opinions wanted. Should I clean it, smooth it out with some sand paper and if I do that is there a chance I could change the dimension or balance of the taper part of the spindle. I don't want to put the chuck on something "I have fixed"only to find out it doesn't sit plumb after the "fix". Or should I leave it as is right now? Ok, next is the spindle disassembly to replace the bearings. More later. thanks for reading.

 

[HVACR1]

forgot to insert the spindle galling pic. here it is.

 

[FrankLee]

Good news for me! I got the chuck off of the spindle without screwing anything up. Remarkable. I tried a variety of different "tools" to insert into the holes on the chuck collar, punches, homemade grinded steel rod, all without success. I then pulled out my secret weapon, see the pic. A short screw that fit tight, along with a Phillips screwdriver pressing into the collar to help keep the screw in place, and that I could direct a hammer blow to very close to the collar, and viola it came loose. Frank's method of an allen wrench in the chuck and then tightened into a vise was the ticket. There is some amount of galling on the spindle surface. It doesn't look too serious to me. Opinions wanted. Should I clean it, smooth it out with some sand paper and if I do that is there a chance I could change the dimension or balance of the taper part of the spindle. I don't want to put the chuck on something "I have fixed"only to find out it doesn't sit plumb after the "fix". Or should I leave it as is right now? Ok, next is the spindle disassembly to replace the bearings. More later. thanks for reading.

Yep, good news!

At this point, before dismantling the quill assembly, I would clean the taper with fine steel wool and measure runout on the taper.

 

[11b30b4]

Frank, have you ever seen one of these?
https://greenville.craigslist.org/bks/d/chesnee-the-drill-press-an-illustrated/7291596424.html

 

[FrankLee]

Frank, have you ever seen one of these?

Yes. I have about a dozen original old owner's manuals, catalogs and various other things including that one.

 

[row.inc]

Re: Custom Drill Press Lamp

Custom Drill Press Lamp

12/25/2020

I've always liked my magnetic-base led lamp on my drill press, but it does have it's drawbacks. Recently, there have been a few members post some really nice custom lamp projects, so I decided to give it a go.

I don't weld and I don't care to permanently modify these machines. I had several criteria for my design.

• it has to be simple
• it has to be inexpensive
• it has to be easy to r&r without a trace
• for the most part, I have to use materials I have on hand

Here's what I came up with. I did buy a swivel lamp fitting, but I did have everything else.

Parts list:

• 4" piece of strut
  I made a couple prototypes using 1-5/8" and 13/16" strut. I ended up using the 1-5/8" strut because I wanted the swivel mounted on the bottom.
  
  
• 2½" pipe hanger for strut
  I used a shorter bolt than was supplied and a couple washers between the clamp halves.
  These pipe hangers are available in several sizes which could work for the 2-1/4" and 1-7/8" columns.
  
  An automotive exhaust clamp would be a good inexpensive substitute for the strut and pipe hanger.
  
  
• lamp socket
  Because of the way my power is set-up for my machines, I used a lamp socket with no switch. Any switchable lamp socket will work, but an in-line cord switch may be required.
  
  
• swivel lamp fitting
  There are other options for this such as a bracket that can be bent in the desired position.
  
  
• 1" lamp ******
  Longer ******* can also work.
  
  
• nuts and washers
  
  
• lamp cord
  There are a couple different gauges of lamp cord. I used the thinner version and always tie a UL knot.
  
  
• PAR16 led bulb

​

It's a waste to have light bouncing around inside the head frame, so when I install this on my real machine, I will slide the assembly down so the bulb is extended somewhat below the head frame casting. I'll post an update when that's done.

​

634195




12/26/2020

The new lamp is installed on my keeper machine. I like it!

​

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50763015837_a4191ce023_b.jpg

Thank you for the design and detailed tutorial on the lamp, it's a nice, clean, simple design that I'll be able to use! Plus my husband was duly impressed with the cutaway!

 

[row.inc]

Frank and Row.inc, that spring worked out nicely, I am glad I ordered a set for myself. Row, outstanding find. I have been looking for a replacement spring for some time.

Also, Frank, the citric acid, worked out nicely. Thanks again for the help.

I too am excited about Frank's testing and have been watching it closely. I'll be curious to see if cutting it shorter then reshaping the end loop works (plus how to do it). I'm afraid of drilling any new holes in any part of the machine as I'm not really handy so might damage it permanently.

 

[Moonshine78]

So back to my multispeed spindle bearing replacement. I got the replacement bearings and installed them last night. It did not go as smoothly as I had hoped, but it got done.

First, I measured the distance from the bearing set to each end of the shaft, then I removed the old bearings with a set of 2 jaw 4 ton pullers I picked up at HDepot. They came off easily. The point on the puller made a bit of a divot in the top of the shaft, which is no big deal to me.

For the next step, I looked for something to use as a spacer to make a hard stop to locate the new bearings at the correct location on the shaft. Luckily, I had a piece of scrap aluminum tube from ceiling fan mount that was just the right size. I cut it to length and set it aside while I tended heating the bearings and cooling the shafts.

We were out of vegetable oil, so I decided to use the oven. I set it to 250F and put the bearings in a baking sheet with foil above and below and left for about 45 minutes. At the same time I put the shaft in the freezer. When the time came I worked quickly but the bearings did not go on by hand. For the next iteration, I tried to supercharge the cooling by hitting the shaft with an inverted can of compressed air (dust off). Still no luck, so I went to plan B.

Since my scrap tube was the right size to contact only the inner races of the bearings, I decided to tap them in with a hammer. For this, I cut a second piece of scrap to do the hammering. Again, I used the first piece of scrap (approx. 54mm long) as a hard stop to set the location. I used a small sledge hammer on the other piece of scrap to tap it down into position. I then followed with the second bearing in the same manner.

I put the spindle assembly back together and got everything mounted up. I used my wrench on the spindle shaft to tension the belt and set it in the column tube with the set screw. Seems all set now.

I'm hoping the bearing replacement on my motor project is slightly easier. I will be posting progress and pics on that one once my bearings get in.

 

[FrankLee]

Thank you for the design and detailed tutorial on the lamp, it's a nice, clean, simple design that I'll be able to use! Plus my husband was duly impressed with the cutaway!

Thanks. I really like this design because it was very easy to make with my limited skills and resources.

I too am excited about Frank's testing and have been watching it closely. I'll be curious to see if cutting it shorter then reshaping the end loop works (plus how to do it). I'm afraid of drilling any new holes in any part of the machine as I'm not really handy so might damage it permanently.

I did complete more testing, but I guess I didn't post the results.

So, I cut off the original loop and bent two full loops 90 degrees. The bend was in line with the outside of the barrel of the spring. It was difficult to bend so I could not the the bend to the center of the barrel like the oe spring. Sorry, I did not get a before photo with the fresh bend.

I installed the spring so the bend was at the bottom of the roll pin. I also used the hub pin in its new location. If using the original location, more spring should be cut or perhaps more loops could be bent.

The test did not go as well as I expected. The new loop failed sooner than I thought it would. I think maybe an extra half-loop or full loop would work better.

​

 

[FrankLee]

So back to my multispeed spindle bearing replacement. I got the replacement bearings and installed them last night. It did not go as smoothly as I had hoped, but it got done.

First, I measured the distance from the bearing set to each end of the shaft, then I removed the old bearings with a set of 2 jaw 4 ton pullers I picked up at HDepot. They came off easily. The point on the puller made a bit of a divot in the top of the shaft, which is no big deal to me.

For the next step, I looked for something to use as a spacer to make a hard stop to locate the new bearings at the correct location on the shaft. Luckily, I had a piece of scrap aluminum tube from ceiling fan mount that was just the right size. I cut it to length and set it aside while I tended heating the bearings and cooling the shafts.

We were out of vegetable oil, so I decided to use the oven. I set it to 250F and put the bearings in a baking sheet with foil above and below and left for about 45 minutes. At the same time I put the shaft in the freezer. When the time came I worked quickly but the bearings did not go on by hand. For the next iteration, I tried to supercharge the cooling by hitting the shaft with an inverted can of compressed air (dust off). Still no luck, so I went to plan B.

Since my scrap tube was the right size to contact only the inner races of the bearings, I decided to tap them in with a hammer. For this, I cut a second piece of scrap to do the hammering. Again, I used the first piece of scrap (approx. 54mm long) as a hard stop to set the location. I used a small sledge hammer on the other piece of scrap to tap it down into position. I then followed with the second bearing in the same manner.

I put the spindle assembly back together and got everything mounted up. I used my wrench on the spindle shaft to tension the belt and set it in the column tube with the set screw. Seems all set now.

I'm hoping the bearing replacement on my motor project is slightly easier. I will be posting progress and pics on that one once my bearings get in.

Good work! Thanks for posting your experience. I've never changed those bearings before, and iirc, there was only one other member in this thread who did. I don't recall who it was and can't find the post at the moment.

Yes, I believe the motor bearings should be easier. The tricky part is removing the end cap and bearing together on the terminal side of the motor. I have successfully used the heat/freeze bearing installation technique many times on motors. I have occasionally needed a small pipe to seat the terminal side bearing. The other end of the rotor should be against a solid immovable object when tapping on the terminal side bearing. I use the 4x4 leg of my work bench in that situation.

 

[DaveT]

Good news for me! I got the chuck off of the spindle without screwing anything up. Remarkable. I tried a variety of different "tools" to insert into the holes on the chuck collar, punches, homemade grinded steel rod, all without success. I then pulled out my secret weapon, see the pic. A short screw that fit tight, along with a Phillips screwdriver pressing into the collar to help keep the screw in place, and that I could direct a hammer blow to very close to the collar, and viola it came loose. Frank's method of an allen wrench in the chuck and then tightened into a vise was the ticket. There is some amount of galling on the spindle surface. It doesn't look too serious to me. Opinions wanted. Should I clean it, smooth it out with some sand paper and if I do that is there a chance I could change the dimension or balance of the taper part of the spindle. I don't want to put the chuck on something "I have fixed"only to find out it doesn't sit plumb after the "fix". Or should I leave it as is right now? Ok, next is the spindle disassembly to replace the bearings. More later. thanks for reading.

I know it’s to late now but they make wedges to get the chucks off. Search Jacobs wedge set, they are not very expensive. Then you just squeeze them together with a c-clamp.

 

[Cruzan80]

Re: The Classic Craftsman 100/150 Drill Press

The problem is that these chicks have a "safety collar" which is threaded. Wedges wouldn't work in this case.

Sent from my IN2015 using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[Outlawmws]

Hmm,

Frank does that spring happen to have a pitch that a standard screw thread could wind into. Does it wind tighter? or would it loosen? I'm thinking that a screw modified to thread in and a hole to catch the pin? if it is a "wind tighter" direction then the spring is unlikely to come off, and would be easy to add a strong thread locker yo help keep it there?

 

[PDX]

The test did not go as well as I expected. The new loop failed sooner than I thought it would. I think maybe an extra half-loop or full loop would work better.

Did you happen to anneal the bend area? If not, give that a shot - heat until "cherry red" hot and allow to slowly cool; or preferably, bend while still red hot (this will minimize the chance of it breaking while bending). Might be easier said than done with a coil spring like that, but maybe you can wedge the coils apart with some sort of steel scraps to help isolate the area you want to work on from the rest.

 

[Outlawmws]

Did you happen to anneal the bend area? If not, give that a shot - heat until "cherry red" hot and allow to slowly cool; or preferably, bend while still red hot (this will minimize the chance of it breaking while bending). Might be easier said than done with a coil spring like that, but maybe you can wedge the coils apart with some sort of steel scraps to help isolate the area you want to work on from the rest.

This, plus an oil quench would probably work

 

[FrankLee]

Craftsman 113.24261 Band saw

Hmm,

Frank does that spring happen to have a pitch that a standard screw thread could wind into. Does it wind tighter? or would it loosen? I'm thinking that a screw modified to thread in and a hole to catch the pin? if it is a "wind tighter" direction then the spring is unlikely to come off, and would be easy to add a strong thread locker yo help keep it there?

Did you happen to anneal the bend area? If not, give that a shot - heat until "cherry red" hot and allow to slowly cool; or preferably, bend while still red hot (this will minimize the chance of it breaking while bending). Might be easier said than done with a coil spring like that, but maybe you can wedge the coils apart with some sort of steel scraps to help isolate the area you want to work on from the rest.

This, plus an oil quench would probably work

Yep, I've got more testing to do when I figure out how to slowly cool the spring after heating. I'm thinking a small bucket of sand and the bbq grill.




Once again, drill presses around here are too much or too far away. So, when this 113.24261 band saw popped up, I went for it. There are a few minor missing parts, but also a few nice nice parts. It did run decently at the seller's place. He is moving out of state, so he was quite motivated to sell.

​

3/22/2021

Got the '67 113.12110 motor cleaned up today.

​

 

[Outlawmws]

Frank, does that B saw have multiple pulleys for metal cutting?

 

[FrankLee]

Frank, does that B saw have multiple pulleys for metal cutting?

No, just the standard 2" and 5" pulleys.

 

[lafester]

Nice pedestal and belt guard on that saw!

I just picked up the later plastic model, along with a 6x48 sander, table saw and... a craftsman 100 bench top model for $150. $37.50 each is about the best I have done on a craftsman dp, and it isn't even in bad condition. I noticed quite a few new dps for sale this weekend and hopefully that trend continues.

I'll get some pics soon.

 

[11b30b4]

Frank, if there was a low cost method to ship that pedestal and cover I would beg you for it but I fear the shipping would be a deal breaker. Anyway, nice grab.

Lafester, this reminds me of a question I have had for some time. I have seen several Craftsman band saws that have printed on them band saw/ sander. However, in all the pics I have seen, I only see a band saw. I do not understand how a band saw is also a sander unless there is some sort of attachment?

 

[FrankLee]

Nice pedestal and belt guard on that saw!

I just picked up the later plastic model, along with a 6x48 sander, table saw and... a craftsman 100 bench top model for $150. $37.50 each is about the best I have done on a craftsman dp, and it isn't even in bad condition. I noticed quite a few new dps for sale this weekend and hopefully that trend continues.

I'll get some pics soon.

Yes! Pictures!

Frank, if there was a low cost method to ship that pedestal and cover I would beg you for it but I fear the shipping would be a deal breaker. Anyway, nice grab.

Lafester, this reminds me of a question I have had for some time. I have seen several Craftsman band saws that have printed on them band saw/ sander. However, in all the pics I have seen, I only see a band saw. I do not understand how a band saw is also a sander unless there is some sort of attachment?

I suspect you're right about shipping.

 

[lafester]

Yeah, if you look at the manual there are some parts you need to convert it into sanding mode. I've never seen one with these parts included, but I also don't really look for these very often.

https://c.searspartsdirect.com/mmh/lis_pdf/OWNM/L0903675.pdf

Frank, if there was a low cost method to ship that pedestal and cover I would beg you for it but I fear the shipping would be a deal breaker. Anyway, nice grab.

Lafester, this reminds me of a question I have had for some time. I have seen several Craftsman band saws that have printed on them band saw/ sander. However, in all the pics I have seen, I only see a band saw. I do not understand how a band saw is also a sander unless there is some sort of attachment?

 

[lafester]

Yes! Pictures!





I suspect you're right about shipping.

It's had an easy life...

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

 

[FrankLee]

It's had an easy life...

Yep, looks good.

Interesting over-stamp on the motor date code.

 

[11b30b4]

Lafester, thanks for that. I do not believe I would ever spend the energy to set up a ½” sander and then set the saw back up. Although, I assume someone thought it a cool idea. I figure if you are buying a 12” band saw, you most likely already have a belt sander.

 

[Moonshine78]

Does anyone have any experience with the Craftsman DP collet chuck (PN 2467)? I ordered one, hoping to do some very light milling, like finishing/squaring off the ends of thin aluminum bars. I've done a good amount of milling work on a bridgeport in the past, so I know this is not a substitute, but I think it will be able to handle some light duty tasks. I have a cheapo HF slide vise that will need some mods before it's usable.

 

[Hoorn]

I realize this is not a 100 / 150, but that table lift is going on my 1958 150 after a full restore.
I found this on CL today for $100. Rare pulley full cover, MSA pulley, and that table lift -which I think is much tougher to track down in the wild than a Vari-Slow.

 

[FrankLee]

I realize this is not a 100 / 150, but that table lift is going on my 1958 150 after a full restore.
I found this on CL today for $100. Rare pulley full cover, MSA pulley, and that table lift -which I think is much tougher to track down in the wild than a Vari-Slow.

Fantastic find! Congrats!

It's machines like that that keep me searching!

 

[Reversepolarity]

Re: The Classic Craftsman 100/150 Drill Press

That is a dandy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[FrankLee]

Does anyone have any experience with the Craftsman DP collet chuck (PN 2467)? I ordered one, hoping to do some very light milling, like finishing/squaring off the ends of thin aluminum bars. I've done a good amount of milling work on a bridgeport in the past, so I know this is not a substitute, but I think it will be able to handle some light duty tasks. I have a cheapo HF slide vise that will need some mods before it's usable.

I guess not much experience with those. My opinion is that since you know the limitations of the machine, it should work for light duty milling. That was designed and made for it.

 

[HVACR1]

Hey, I got the chuck off of the spindle, disassembled, and cleaned and as polished as I could get it. There is damage to the chuck body where the jaws slide through above the two piece nut. One jaw has a very thin thread it is the thread closest to the jaw itself in the pic. Does this chuck body damage mean it is not usable and does the thin thread mean it will not work properly? Before disassembly and the reason I did disassemble it was due to an occasional catch, when turning the jaws in and out it would occasionally be hard to turn and it felt like something catching. Comments appreciated and thanks for reading.

 

[FrankLee]

Hey, I got the chuck off of the spindle, disassembled, and cleaned and as polished as I could get it. There is damage to the chuck body where the jaws slide through above the two piece nut. One jaw has a very thin thread it is the thread closest to the jaw itself in the pic. Does this chuck body damage mean it is not usable and does the thin thread mean it will not work properly? Before disassembly and the reason I did disassemble it was due to an occasional catch, when turning the jaws in and out it would occasionally be hard to turn and it felt like something catching. Comments appreciated and thanks for reading.

That all looks perfectly normal.

Those loops may be closed, open or broken. The jaws must be reinstalled in a specific order to line up correctly. If you didn't label them during removal, it may take trial and error to get it right.

​

 

[HVACR1]

thanks Frank! got the orings too. going to put it all back together this weekend barring any work interruptions.

 

[HVACR1]

That all looks perfectly normal.

Those loops may be closed, open or broken. The jaws must be reinstalled in a specific order to line up correctly. If you didn't label them during removal, it may take trial and error to get it right.

​

Good to know. Thankfully I did mark the jaws. I had not heard of green lock tite, if I cannot find it locally this weekend is there an alternative I can use on the feed stop bracket for a short while until I order some in? I got the chuck back together and it works smooth as silk now. That is a testament to this thread you started and monitor, not to my ability, so thanks again. I read the section about reassembly and when following the directions my feed stop rod does not zero out at the indicator. To get it to be at Zero when the quill is fully retracted I cannot seat the feed stop bracket up against the snap ring. Am I missing something simple here? I don't think I have the bracket in upside down, or do I ? Please see pic. Thanks for reading.

 

[PureLeaf]

Does anyone have any experience with the Craftsman DP collet chuck (PN 2467)? I ordered one, hoping to do some very light milling, like finishing/squaring off the ends of thin aluminum bars. I've done a good amount of milling work on a bridgeport in the past, so I know this is not a substitute, but I think it will be able to handle some light duty tasks. I have a cheapo HF slide vise that will need some mods before it's usable.

Theres some discussion of this on forum practical machinist. The overall opinion there was drill presses are drill presses, don't use them to for milling as the horizontal pressure will cause stress on the bearings they were not intended to deal with.

Check out the practical machinist forum and search for craftsman drill presses though for a bunch of discussion on that topic and replacement chuck topics.

 

[FrankLee]

Good to know. Thankfully I did mark the jaws. I had not heard of green lock tite, if I cannot find it locally this weekend is there an alternative I can use on the feed stop bracket for a short while until I order some in? I got the chuck back together and it works smooth as silk now. That is a testament to this thread you started and monitor, not to my ability, so thanks again. I read the section about reassembly and when following the directions my feed stop rod does not zero out at the indicator. To get it to be at Zero when the quill is fully retracted I cannot seat the feed stop bracket up against the snap ring. Am I missing something simple here? I don't think I have the bracket in upside down, or do I ? Please see pic. Thanks for reading.

Because you have a later 150 with the quill snap ring, you don't need the retaining compound for the feed stop bracket. I use it on earlier machines without the snap ring to help prevent the feed stop bracket from sliding down the quill when it bumps against the head casting.
Check this post:
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4880745


There was a recent discussion regarding the scale on the feed stop rod starting here:
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8874555

 

[FrankLee]

.......
.

 

[HVACR1]

I realize this is not a 100 / 150, but that table lift is going on my 1958 150 after a full restore.
I found this on CL today for $100. Rare pulley full cover, MSA pulley, and that table lift -which I think is much tougher to track down in the wild than a Vari-Slow.

I have a couple of questions if you don't mind answering them. What model and year is this DP from? What is the purpose of the hole in the cover, if you remove the center pulley (vari-speed?) does it allow the column to come through the cover? Looks sorta like a beluga whale. I like the looks of this model. Thanks

 

[HVACR1]

.......
.

Except for the electrical revamp I am done for now with the rehab of my Craftsman 150 DP. When I bought this it drilled elongated holes and was very noisy. After rehab I am happy to say it drills round holes and is not noisy. I am going to get a shorter belt the 44" forces the mount stud that goes into the quick latch to be almost all the way unscrewed from the headstock and the belt is loose. I also think the 1/2" wide belt, which measures just over 1/2" (.512)is too wide for the pulleys, I will try to get a 3/8" wide belt and see what the result is. Here is what I did/replaced for this rehab: cleaned the column to 320 grit using WD 40, and Aero Kroil. Cleaned the tables to 400 grit. Gutted the head stock, cleaned all components and bore holes, disassembled the chuck and cleaned using Grez-Off, Citric Acid and sanded all components to 600 grit and buffed with tripoli. Cleaned all handles ect using Grez-Off, steel wool, WD 40 and paste wax. I applied Johnsons paste was to the column, tables, head lock and table lock components. I replaced the pulley bearings. Replaced the quill bumper oring and the Preload bearing rubber oring. I applied Super Lube to the quill, spindle, pulley spindle and hub and pinion assy, cleaned the motor with compressed air and paste wax (I did not disassemble the motor, save that for another day), oiled the motor bearings liberally over the course of several days (the wicks were dry) I cleaned the Panel band with Cleaner Wax (there is some old paint I will get off when I understand what product I can use to get it off of there without damaging the Panel). Applied anti seize to the motor support rods, Blue Threadlocker to the pulley support machine screw ends and anti sieze to the balance of the threads.
I thought I had put something back together incorrectly when the feeder rod would not zero out on the indicator. It is hard to tell from the pic but when I got it home the feeder was at zero, I guess the bracket was not seated up against the oring bumper on the quill?. I applied WD-40 to the exterior of the headstock to loosen some surface rust and shine it up a bit. I am undecided as to whether I want to strip all to bare metal and repaint it another color. Someone on this thread painted the center raised metal section on the front of the headstock a different color and I liked it, it made that design feature stand out. Thank you to all who helped me do this. When I got this home I thought either you are going to get lucky and not screw anything up or" you are in for a learning experience by screwing it up", then I found GJ! The original owner bought this DP in 64 I believe along with a 113.29900 table saw I am going to rebuild. He was a former customer of mine and was a fine craftsman (no pun intended) who built most of his first house, cabinetry and all their furniture using this DP, table saw, and radial arm saw. He hand planed all he built. He passed away recently and his daughter remembered he wanted me to have most of his tools. I was fortunate to get them and to find GJ. Now I fear rebuilding might become an addiction. I rebuilt this DP in my house, no room in my small garage, and had a lot of fun, some angst, and satisfaction doing it.

 

[HVACR1]

Don't know why all the pics did not appear in the above post, here are a few others :