Craftsman from China - really that bad?

[finn]

There’s so much conflicting opinion here: Milwaukee products are almost exclusively sourced from China, yet the Milwaukee fan boy club completely overlooks that fact and extols the brand as high quality.

Similarly, HF is primarily Chinese, and, based on the Pittsburgh Pro combination wrenches I handled in their Newport News store last week, is of a quality level that doesn’t even reach marginal level for fit and finish or consistency, yet there is a large group that give them a pass.

Craftsman certainly has its Mulligans, especially the novelty tools, but, overall, still seems to have it place in the tool spectrum, Chinese or not.

 

[Mgdoug3]

I forgot one thing. I much prefer the older sockets like the V series. I don't know if the newer sockets need to be thicker because they're stronger or to beef them up since the metal is a sub par. You are right about the USA vs China as the G2 sockets are much thicker than my V series. The v series also doesn't have the double detent.

For me it's not so much USA vs China but new vs old. The old sockets to me are way better. Instead of buying new Craftsman, I'll go to the flea market and buy old sockets for less than a dollar. I never have broke a socket (not including impact sockets) if I'm using it correctly. I have broke some but only when I wasn't straight on a bolt and usually using a long extension.

 

[thwaller]

I forgot one thing. I much prefer the older sockets like the V series. I don't know if the newer sockets need to be thicker because they're stronger or to beef them up since the metal is a sub par. You are right about the USA vs China as the G2 sockets are much thicker than my V series. The v series also doesn't have the double detent.

For me it's not so much USA vs China but new vs old. The old sockets to me are way better. Instead of buying new Craftsman, I'll go to the flea market and buy old sockets for less than a dollar. I never have broke a socket (not including impact sockets) if I'm using it correctly. I have broke some but only when I wasn't straight on a bolt and usually using a long extension.

That is what I have concluded as well. There has been obvious quality changes with Craftsman. But just from those who have posted here, it seems that the change in quality is not exclusive to the move to China.

At least for my intent, I believe that is an answer I was seeking. Not buying a Craftsman tool simply because it is made in China (or just not USA) is not a logical decision as it relates to quality concerns. It does seem that the made in China ones need to be looked at a bit more closely, but the applies to the USA Craftsman tools made in 2011 and prior ... since the USA ones in later years also suffer of a lesser quality.

 

[thwaller]

So I have spent some time talking with an individual from Shanghai City (that is in China) on the quality of Chinese steel... yes he works in the steel industry. I am informed that "Chinese manufacturers can do ASTM standard as American customers require". Most USA facilities use ANSI standards, which are of a lesser standard than ASTM. So to that, I might opinionate that the issue is not China, but the USA brand that dictates the lower standard to be provided as a product. This becomes more interesting.

 

[Andres26tnt]

So I have spent some time talking with an individual from Shanghai City (that is in China) on the quality of Chinese steel... yes he works in the steel industry. I am informed that "Chinese manufacturers can do ASTM standard as American customers require". Most USA facilities use ANSI standards, which are of a lesser standard than ASTM. So to that, I might opinionate that the issue is not China, but the USA brand that dictates the lower standard to be provided as a product. This becomes more interesting.

Its simple, USA manufactures need to hit certain points before selling in the states, most of those are Price and Cost leading to a drop in quality to meet them.

 

[d.mcfarland]

Its simple, USA manufactures need to hit certain points before selling in the states, most of those are Price and Cost leading to a drop in quality to meet them.

And this whole post is a random guy that lives in China saying that his country "can" do better. Lot of opinion and not a lot of fact.

I agree that it's all about bringing cost down and profit margin up.

 

[thwaller]

Well, he is not a "random" guy. He is a manager at Cumic Steel Limited. I will be more than happy to ask any questions you have to him, as I also have interest in the answers.

EDIT: I am doing more than most .. I am bringing my question to many, including relevant people in the other country, at least to my abilities. What I am finding is that China is not fully to blame for the opinion that made in China tools are no good. It is looking more like the USA executives are the ones to blame for such things. I am starting to believe it is not that they can do better, but that they do worse at the request of the Western customer's request.

Proof, that is hard without a topic and specifics. Well, Milwaukee Tool is made in China. Milwaukee Tool is China owned. Milwaukee Tool is therefore a cheap product? I have a bit more than a handful of Milwaukee Tool products, all made and purchased after 2004 and I can vouch for the quality there. I also learn that Snap On has some of their stuff made in China. This is interesting because with the Snap On name attached, it seems to negate the "China Made" from it. Yet people still pay the high prices for them, and it is still a China made product.

 

[finn]

Every time someone brings up the fact that Apple products and Milwaukee Tools are made in China, all I hear is birds cheeping.....

 

[thwaller]

Every time someone brings up the fact that Apple products and Milwaukee Tools are made in China, all I hear is birds cheeping.....

Maybe that is the problem then? If you believe Apple and Milwaukee Tool are quality products, then "made in China" means what?

Not to mention Snap On, no one will address that one.

 

[thwaller]

Hey guys-
I have more first hand experience to add, this time on the negative side. I recently picked up some sale items from Sears, which were made in China Craftsman sets. I have here:
1. 999941 - Socket Wrench Set
2. 930024 - Socket Accessory Set
Those two items compliment each other and contain bit sockets like hex, torx, eTorx and an assortment of extensions and a ratchet.

Upon opening these items, I noticed straight away that the oxide finishes on the bits were dry, bone dry. There was even some discoloring and a dusty surface rust in small amounts here and there. A wipe down with some ATF quickly fixed this issue, but it is worth noting that the items were not oiled in the container.... the kits come in blow molded cases. Additionally, all of the non wobble extensions and universal joints in both kits had/have retaining ball issues (the ball that locks the socket in place). Most of them would not even insert into anything, socket or extension, at first. To remedy this, I again used some ATF and soaked the male ends (with the retaining ball) in the ATF for a bit, then exercised them with repeated insertions into a larger extension so I could have some grip.

Most everything is fine now. I would consider all of the bits with no issue, but I still consider the extensions to be of a poor quality, compared to the USA Craftsman and other extensions I have (both USA and Asian). Insertion still feels off, like it is out of tolerance or simply just not fitting and engaging as it is supposed to.

Just wanted to share as presenting all good and bad only helps in a real answer to the question I posed here.

EDIT: Some additional points I can make. The universal joints are serviceable. Meaning that there is a screw that can be removed at each of the joints vs just a pin. I do not recall id prior ones were like that, but some believe this is a good feature to have... me being one as you can disassemble to tighten back up and put back together when they loosen from use. None of the bit sockets are serviceable, but Craftsman never has done this except for their large sizes, like the T55 and T60 if my memory serves me right. All of the bit ends appear to be S2 steel, at least those that are marked. None are marked otherwise.

The drive end of the bit sockets have a good tight fit on a ratchet and extension. To test this, I used a Made in USA ratchet (Craftsman 3/8-Inch Drive Thin Profile Ratchet, 9-44995), a Tekton 3/8 breaker bar #SBH00118 and finally 2 standard and 2 wobble China Craftsman extensions that came in the kits. I felt this ok as it uses a USA and China Craftsman as well as a non-Craftsman breaker. The wobble extensions all seem to fit and function without issue, but I will say that all of the extensions and universal joints are not up to par. I am using a China made unbranded extension I ordered on eBay for like $1 for this comparison. Honestly, it has a better fit than the extensions in these kits.

The final 2 pieces are the 3/8-1/4 adapter and the ratchet. The adapter is junk. The retention ball is inset way too far and does not move much at all. It feels strange in my hand, so when I call Craftsman to get it replaced and they do not want it, I might cut it in half and have a look at the metal in there. It almost seems like where I scratched it trying to loosen the ball there is a hint of a copper coloring. Strange. Lastly the ratchet, well, it is a Craftsman ratchet. They never have been so good on the RP base models. This one is full polish and seems to be a bit longer and have a few more teeth. I counted 46 teeth, but that seems odd, but that is the count of clicks in a cull rotation. The reverse level is real stiff and somewhat bulky, but it does have a nice feel and works with no issues, skips or reverse problems.

With the cost paid being about 75 US cents per piece (averaging both sets and all pieces equally), I believe it is a good buy, especially if you need the bit sockets. If I were to throw away all but the bit sockets, I am still at a savings of at least 75% off of buying them in their individual metric/SAE kits... and luckily the bit sockets appear to be the best items in the kits quality wise.