craftsman is going down hill...get over it

[duneslider]

I find this all very interesting. I don't totally get this whole "american made" stuff. I am just as american as the next guy and I too want to help my neighbor and support my country, etc. But we don't live in the world of 30 years ago, or even 15 years ago. We can't just rely on America, especially the way our countries leadership is going. We live in a world economy. There is some stuff our country does very well at and stuff our country used to do very well at. I work at a small company that does over 50 million in sales each year, we have several service divisions that do repairs and installations. We have an EXTREMELY hard time finding good mechanics and millwrights. Its difficult to find guys who will show up, not do drugs, know how to turn a wrench, and some of our highest paid guys in the company are the millwrights and mechanics. These guys are making good money! Our country doesn't want to do this sort of work, we want the high paying jobs where we sit on our **** in front of a computer. We don't want the heavy labor construction jobs, or the labor intensive manufacturing jobs, so here comes China and Taiwan and etc and they want that work. On top of it, they even will do it cheaper than we can.

The problem here isn't out sourcing, the problem is accepting the diminished quality. China can make tools just as good as we can, they don't because we (our country in general) don't care about quality we want cheap. So, China complies and gives us cheap.

I see posts on here all the time about tools that are made in other parts of the world that look like quality tools and some are down right beautiful works of art. The US isn't the only place a quality product can be made. Anyone can do it, the US as a whole has decided we don't really care and we can pick up a $1 ratchet to use twice and then buy another for $1 when it breaks.

Our schools are trying to get out of the business of teaching trades, my local school districts are trying to phase out all the shop classes, welding, wood working, auto mechanics, etc. They want all the kids learning to use computers. This kind of society soon won't care about turning a wrench let alone know how to turn a wrench, so why would they care about quality American made wrenches? We will have to outsource our auto repair, or bring in immigrant workers who want to do it and know how to do it.

This is all probably less about money than it is about a societal shift we are experiencing.

We should all be happy that we have so many options to get good quality tools, even if we have to buy them overseas and have them shipped to our door.

 

[Bull]

I suppose this is one of those divisive issues that people will never agree on. Buying USA products is part of a philosophy, and embracing a "world economy" is part of another philosophy.

As far as Americans "not wanting" construction and manufacturing jobs, I'd say that the jobs walked away from the people and not the other way around. I say this as a general truth, despite your localized experience of finding druggie bums for those positions.

 

[duneslider]

Don't get me wrong, I would love it if America could support itself. It can't! We have grown beyond our borders. I think we could do a better job of utilizing our own resources and people but I don't think we can keep it all inside the fence anymore, not the way our society is now.

Maybe it is a localized opinion of mine but our company spans most of the western states and I don't seem to see any difference across the board. And then when we have to find local help outside of our normal working area we can't seem to find decent workers there either. I am currently sending my crews back to Virginia because the quality guys back there screwed things up so bad.

I wish it was just a localized problem, that would be easy to solve.

 

[Bull]

When I say "localized," I mean peculiar to your location and your time. If I look at the shrinking of American industry, the historical pattern seems to be that shops and factories full of workers close down as jobs are sent elsewhere. Trained workers then have no jobs. I don't see the historical trend being trained workers saying "screw this, I'm leaving this factory to go to college and get a desk job."

There has always been comparative advantage at play in manufacturing, and countries have always struggled with more expensive domestic goods competing with cheaper foreign products. That's what tariffs are for. But tariffs are an artificial external punishment to try and get people to buy domestically. I think a much better incentive to buy domestically is just to adopt it as a part of your philosophy, both as an individual and a culture. Should everything be made here? No. Should more be made here? Yes. Am I going to coninue to buy what is made here? Hell yes.

 

[Tucko]

I wonder how many people complaining about the decline of Sears/ Craftsman are the first ones in line at Harbor Freight when the coupons come out...Or do all your shopping at Walmart....

 

[sk farmer]

thank you bull for promoting you beliefs also. so many people try and twist things around and have an answer for why things can't possibly be a certain way. most of it is in their heads. i understand that not everything can be made here and i don't expect it to be either.

i refuse to accept the notion of people saying that we have to outsource, we can't compete and we have no choice. really? just give up?

if we fail, it isn't because we can't. it is because we have been convinced that we can't by the naysayers.

 

[duneslider]

I was in the construction trade, owned my own company, and threw in my hat and sort of changed. I had other schooling already but left my trade to follow the work and feed my family.

However, I also don't see the trend being that trade workers are throwing in the hat but what I do see is not enough new trade workers coming in. That is where our companies problems are. We have a staff of guys that have been with us 20 plus years but they are getting older and will retire and we don't have guys to fill their shoes.

How do we bring manufacturing back if we don't have people to do the work?

If given two similar choices with comparative prices, I too will buy american. Although, even "American made" means less than it used to in a lot of cases. It is rare to find something that is completely "American made" from source materials all the way up to the packaging when it is in your hands.

We sell A LOT of American made equipment and we are always waiting on parts coming from overseas.

 

[kythri]

I don't see the historical trend being trained workers saying "screw this, I'm leaving this factory to go to college and get a desk job."

I think you're right about a historical trend, but the current trend sure as heck seems to be an agenda these days of trying to convince everyone that they should go to college, that they're college material, and, by the way, here's a lot of money someone else earned that you can use to go to college.

There's far too much of an emphasis these days on pushing the college education when, the fact of the matter is, college isn't for a lot of people, a lot of people aren't for college, and college really isn't truly needed to perform the job for a lot of those listings out their stating their requirement of a college degree.

I think that this agenda has fostered an attitude amongst a lot of people that they're too good for a manufacturing or other labor-style job, and that college is the ticket to that great job, when, in reality, it seems to be that college is increasingly becoming the ticket to a lot of post-graduation debt, being slowly paid off by a $10/hr job that one could have obtained post-high school.

 

[sk farmer]

I wonder how many people complaining about the decline of Sears/ Craftsman are the first ones in line at Harbor Freight when the coupons come out...Or do all your shopping at Walmart....

do i shop at harbor freight and walmart? yes. do i do all of my shopping at those places, no. just like every other place you can get better things and worse things. i buy the product not the store. in the last 2 years i have purchased in excess of 1000 dollars on craftsman tools. probably over 95% us made. if i was to make those same purchases today it would not be the same % of us made items and the quality is less. sears won't be getting that amount of future sales because of it and neither will hf.

 

[Steinmetz]

I'd rather get a Chinese replacement for a broken tool than no tool at all. If Sears folds, what will we do with our investment in Craftsman tools???

I'm also tired of the Sears bashing. Sears is just trying to stay afloat, keep their people in jobs and keep a 100+ year old business going. They've got TREMENDOUS overhead because, at one time, they were a first rate company to work for. If they need to make tools in Asia to keep up with their competition then that's how it goes. If that's what it takes for them to stay in business and keep offering me a replacement tool, then PLEASE make tools in Asia.

I worked for Montgomery Ward and later worked at Sears during my college years. When I was 17, I was working part time while living in my parents' house - I made almost $15K that year! I had a commission job selling electronics and I think I averaged $12 an hour. That's when minimum wage was $3 something an hour. They offered serious training to their employees and they could pay adults a livable wage for working full time.

That was 1988 to 1998 and there was still some money in retail.

I worked at Sears in the late 90's, part time. A few months ago I got a notice from Sears about my pension plan. 1st, I didn't even know I had a Sears pension plan. 2nd, I haven't "kept in contact" with Sears, so they must have had to search for me. The notice said that because my current pension plan was under $5000 they are going to send me a check to close my pension fund. Can you imagine what Sears is spending, finding all of their old employees and sending them checks?

I think Sears is just trying to stay in business and not end up like Montgomery Ward. Let's hope they do.

It's not altruism. Sears has a legal obligation to notify you regarding pension benefits, and to pay you.

 

[TimDaToolMan]

I think everyone in this thread is missing one major thing...

If Cman is going to me made in China, they need to lower there prices.

If your paying $35 for a USA socket set, why in the hell should you pay $35 for a Chinese socket set?

If you want Chinese tools, might as well buy the evolve line.

 

[TimDaToolMan]

Here is another thing I want to point out.

Those that say "get over it"....I'm not going to get over it, and I'm sure a lot of people are not as well.

If I can't buy cman usa anymore. I'm going to have to turn to a more expensive line of tools.

If you truly don't care cman is being made overseas, you don't care about America, and so that just makes you a damn commie!

 

[Hafen_Kafer]

Tantrum alert!!!

Grow up tim.

If I can't buy cman usa anymore. I'm going to have to turn to a more expensive line of tools.

There you go. That's what every smart shopper is doing.

 

[mmack66]

I think everyone in this thread is missing one major thing...

If Cman is going to me made in China, they need to lower there prices.

If your paying $35 for a USA socket set, why in the hell should you pay $35 for a Chinese socket set?

If you want Chinese tools, might as well buy the evolve line.

They outsourced the production of Craftsman tools in order to increase their profits. Why does anyone think they would do that and not keep the same prices?

 

[Exceller8]

I find it funny that some people bag on China for the loss of jobs here in the US and the same people will post their Knipex collections. Does that make any sense? Import is import, right?

Edit: I didn't read the whole post.

 

[TimDaToolMan]

There you go. That's what every smart shopper is doing.

It's not really "smart". Other tool lines cost several times more. In some cases 10 times more. Is paying 10x for tools "smart"? No.

 

[Hafen_Kafer]

It's not really "smart". Other tool lines cost several times more. In some cases 10 times more. Is paying 10x for tools "smart"? No.

Quality is expensive. I buy what works.

 

[kythri]

I think everyone in this thread is missing one major thing...

If Cman is going to me made in China, they need to lower there prices.

If your paying $35 for a USA socket set, why in the hell should you pay $35 for a Chinese socket set?

If you want Chinese tools, might as well buy the evolve line.

I think you're missing one major thing:

For the longest time, Craftsman WAS made in the USA, and it's prices were lower than anything else on the market that was USA-made.

In the last decade-plus, Craftsman was never USA-tools at USA-prices. They were USA-tools at Craftsman-prices.

The move to China was definitely about profits, but it's more likely that it was about MAINTAINING a level of profits while at the same time maintaining low prices.

I've issued a similar challenge in the past, but here's your challenge:

Find a line of tools with the breadth of selection that Craftsman offers, sold at Craftsman prices, with the same Craftsman warranty and the same extremely-wide distribution as Craftsman (i.e. pretty much attainable anywhere in the US if you're willing to drive a short distance) AND is made in the USA.

The only thing that comes remotely close is the Masterforce brand from Menards, but it notably fails on the distribution and wide selection.

Craftsman was an oddity in the market.

 

[kythri]

Here is another thing I want to point out.

Those that say "get over it"....I'm not going to get over it, and I'm sure a lot of people are not as well.

If I can't buy cman usa anymore. I'm going to have to turn to a more expensive line of tools.

If you truly don't care cman is being made overseas, you don't care about America, and so that just makes you a damn commie!

Get over it.

Also:

 

[Rockuf8]

Mike isn't a real person IMO.

 

[Tucko]

I suppose this is one of those divisive issues that people will never agree on. Buying USA products is part of a philosophy, and embracing a "world economy" is part of another philosophy.

As far as Americans "not wanting" construction and manufacturing jobs, I'd say that the jobs walked away from the people and not the other way around. I say this as a general truth, despite your localized experience of finding druggie bums for those positions.

Well, let me throw something into the mix that people don't often talk about. As a union sheet metal worker, I believe in the right for a worker to be treated fairly, honestly, and humanely. This goes for all workers, regardless of where they live. The relentless drive downwards in wages affects EVERYONE, and inversly, rising wages also lift all boats. Unlike most people, I consider the person who made the product as part of the equation when I consider buying something. Am I alone?

 

[sberry]

I agree in the long term Sears is shooting itself in the foot but for now they are a bargain for the customer. No one is robbing you on a 35$ socket set, its USA and you were willing to pay over 200 for an end wrench set. Sears prices are cheap, been cheap for a long time and isnt screwing anyone if they make 5 dollars.

Vote with your wallet is right,,, every time they give a great deal on USA made you should "BUY IT" for a dollar but Nooooooo,, its a much better deal to pay 20 for a socket at 50% off.

I dont think its healthy for Sears, you can only go so low and they are not the monster they were in the day in their world.

Here are a couple different ones, I have bought several sets but believe the bottom was in about 82, the top prior to that. Its a lot better wrench. Looks like the old SK die?

 

[Hafen_Kafer]

Good point Tucko.

BTW, do you still have that 5" mic?

 

[Tucko]

Good point Tucko.

BTW, do you still have that 5" mic?

Yep, I sent you a PM.

 

[Brownsfan]

Well the sets are now china. I was at a sears in cincy and the 11pc 1/4 sets were now china. The cases are different and for some reason smell funny.

 

[cburnscrx]

In case anybody has an Ace Hardware, they often carry the Craftsman hand tools. In addition, they match prices when Sears has a sale. I picked up the the 26 pc combination set in both SAE and Metric made in the USA at Sears prices.

 

[bonneyman]

Tucko makes a good point.

I just wish that the former Craftsman makers (i.e. Western Forge, EASCO, etc) would start making tools and parts like they used to - without the C-man logo. I know people would give their right arm to have RHFT rats again!

 

[MN Falcon]

I think you're right about a historical trend, but the current trend sure as heck seems to be an agenda these days of trying to convince everyone that they should go to college, that they're college material, and, by the way, here's a lot of money someone else earned that you can use to go to college.

There's far too much of an emphasis these days on pushing the college education when........

True but I think Bull's point is really right on. Look at my community. A couple years ago Ford shuttered the doors on the production of the Ranger. Huge loss of manufacturing jobs. Ford needed to expend other production but rather than utilizing current capacity they paid to expand in Mexico. My community has to make the decision on where to spend education dollars. When the companies that provide the jobs choose not to utilize what is currently before them why should we commit to providing those workers. Instead, we have the largest congregation of medical device companies per capita. Their demand is for well educated engineers, scientists, business leaders etc. They have shown that they prefer to hire the best most educated.

So my community heavily supports those pursuits. Then "below" that comes the need for machinists, mechanics etc to support the mission, these companies need well qualified people to produce prototype products and create the machinery to ramp up production of any new device, so my community still funds the education for these jobs as well. It is sad that K-12 is eliminating much of the shop classes, but on a budget analysis method, they are the most expensive classes offered in the schools and when budget cutting keeps coming across the desks of the administrators, what can they do (I know what I can do to help out though as an individual)? Most of the suburban schools have teamed up with the VoTechs to fill in the gaps and provide Technical training to students that are serious about persuing the trades as a career.

This happened in other sectors as well, Northern MN was well known for its iron mining, well through technical advancements and the decline of quantity of iron ore, those jobs have declined also and following them were all of the support jobs that went with the mining, machine maintenance etc.

But in all honesty what should my community's commitment be to, the declining manufacturing jobs that are leaving even though we provide them with good workers, or should we be investing in the careers that are expanding?

 

[Bull]

Well, let me throw something into the mix that people don't often talk about. As a union sheet metal worker, I believe in the right for a worker to be treated fairly, honestly, and humanely. This goes for all workers, regardless of where they live. The relentless drive downwards in wages affects EVERYONE, and inversly, rising wages also lift all boats. Unlike most people, I consider the person who made the product as part of the equation when I consider buying something. Am I alone?

Heck no, you aren't alone. I believe in the dignity of labor. It's another reason why I treat an import from a country with a history of compensating workers fairly and valuing their products much different than, say, China or India or similar developing nation. So, in reference to what Exceller8 wrote, no, an import is not an import and I sure do treat Knipex differently.

For the record, these threads often get contentious and they can also be frustrating in their frequency. But for me, I'm not bagging on anyone for the choices they make, I'm just articulating my own opinion.

 

[d.mcfarland]

Let's not forget that a business has a main goal to remain in business. Sear's has competition from places like Harbor Freight, so in order to remain in business, they need to remain competitive. They might not sell as many items because they don't want to be seen as a HF type of import pusher, so they need to keep the prices the same so that the profit margins are better per item sold.

 

[sberry]

I dont think its always a straight line. If a person can buy competitive, a standard, cheap it should be rewarded. If it aides to work that would go other wise undone it may be an asset and the low purchace price may leave extra money to go in to local circulation.

There is no doubt one can buy a lot of junk from there, no argument and they have their fair share of items they try to scalp the public on but if you stick to commodity items there is a lot of stuff they are hard to beat. Laundry soap, dish soap, engine oil, once in a while a filter. some wiper blades, some tools. Silicone most of the time and some food items.

 

[sberry]

What you want to bet that somewhere along the way Sears people turned down an offer from Ace Hwd, maybe Farm and Fleet etc or e3ven Menards to shore up with that loser KMart.

Big stores were stonewalled in my area, we are the last holdout to get a Meijers and a Walmart, 40 yrs ago we would have had it and had a city build up right around it instead they resist in favor of Kmart and a couple vocal types and all the good shopping is somewhere else.

 

[Armstrong1720]

Dont stone me ! Im against what they did all the way ! But the reason everyone is mad is because we where raised to take care of and buy quality . Now kids are raised to buy throw aways and not taught to keep up with half their tools. So example they go to HF and buy a $10 plastic ratchet when they could have went to ebay and spent $15 for a half worn out proto pear head and it would have lasted them several generations. It amazes me when some people buy HF and wonder if it has a warrenty When it was not built to last !! HELLO common sense !!! Me im not a tool snob but my shop for my trucks are 30 min from town i dont have time to buy throw aways or to loose my tools. So another words crapsman will do wonderful because now Most buy throw **** and since they do it will hurt wright sk proto williams. If im on budget then i save and go to williams or go ebay So our pissin and moanin wont do anything And yes i have a bunch of older american crapsman. So if i need to replace one i will go to ebay

 

[d.mcfarland]

I don't think that nearly as many kids are getting tools for birthdays or Christmas presents anymore. I think what is happening is that the older generation of people who owned all kinds of high quality tools are passing them down and the younger generation doesn't need to go run out and buy new stuff becuase the older stuff has lasted. Any thoughts?

 

[otis66]

I got over it a long time ago....I no longer shop at Sears.

 

[ears]

I suppose this is one of those divisive issues that people will never agree on. Buying USA products is part of a philosophy, and embracing a "world economy" is part of another philosophy.

As far as Americans "not wanting" construction and manufacturing jobs, I'd say that the jobs walked away from the people and not the other way around. I say this as a general truth, despite your localized experience of finding druggie bums for those positions.

The global economy has been around forever, it's a good thing, lately used as a scare word. The only way for a country to get rich is to take the money from other countries. Take a look at a map of the eastern seaboard. All the older cities and towns are built at the fall line or on deep water. America was a dirt poor country madly shipping coal,cotton, tobacco, furs, etc. off to the global economy. We grew, things changed, industrial revolution came and we went to manufacturing, again shipping off to the global economy.

Thing is manufacturing is and always has been a race to the bottom. Henry ford didn't get rich making the finest car of his day. He figured out how to bang out a good car at a price the masses could afford. That was cutting edge technology at the time. You can't buy a model A anymore. If you're not at the cutting edge you die.

The mass produced, mundane, low level manufacturing has only one area left to improve and that's price. What once was cutting edge now anyone can do. We can't compete with the third world, nor should we. We need to move on to the next new thing. Cat, John Deere, and others are selling top of the line equipment all over the world. Bringing money home. They're not selling riding mowers.

As for American companies outsourcing. It's just not that black and white. Guy in Italy goes to buy a plastic laundry basket, he won't buy an American made one if there was one for sale. If its a Rubbermaid, made in china, we get some money, better than nothing. The third world is growing up, theyve learned to tie their shoes. Next step is to cut out the middle man. Why should Rubbermaid get anything? Soon it will be a wholly Chinese company.

The answer is to stay out front. Do the stuff others don't know how to do. When that guy in Italy buys an iPhone, made in China, 96% of the money comes here. Build it in the U.S. at a higher price sell far fewer and we lose money. China is our cheap labor. Doctors don't answer phones, fill out forms, or check your pulse. All that money coming in to the country means we can afford nicer stuff, like American made billet aluminum iPad holders. There is a place for regular manufacturing in this country. If its the major industry in the future we won't be doing well.

The thing about jobs walking away. In a way they did, it's neither good or bad, it's just reality, the jobs changed. The days of paying Laverne and Shirley to watch beer bottles roll down an assembly line are over. We have a huge shortage of labor in this country, it's not just localized. Right now there are 600,000 vacant manufacturing jobs. Manufacturers are turning down work because they can't fill the orders. These are highly skilled positions, trades robotics, computers etc. Gone are the days you can leave high school and expect $40 an hour to drive a forklift at the GM factory

 

[bw77]

My dad worked at Sears from 1944-1967. Most of what we bought came
from Sears, from clothing to sports to auto.

But those days are gone, probably forever due to economic realities.

Today, I don't care what Sears does, there are lots of alternatives.
If we were back before Internet and e-bay, I would care, but not now.

I am not buying Chinese stuff because:

- china supports spying on American corporations and government
- china allows pollution of air, land and water
- china is the demand which causes the slaughter of elephants, tigers etc
- china does not support human rights

 

[Too_Many_Tools]

I find this all very interesting. I don't totally get this whole "american made" stuff. I am just as american as the next guy and I too want to help my neighbor and support my country, etc. But we don't live in the world of 30 years ago, or even 15 years ago. We can't just rely on America, especially the way our countries leadership is going. We live in a world economy. There is some stuff our country does very well at and stuff our country used to do very well at. I work at a small company that does over 50 million in sales each year, we have several service divisions that do repairs and installations. We have an EXTREMELY hard time finding good mechanics and millwrights. Its difficult to find guys who will show up, not do drugs, know how to turn a wrench, and some of our highest paid guys in the company are the millwrights and mechanics. These guys are making good money! Our country doesn't want to do this sort of work, we want the high paying jobs where we sit on our **** in front of a computer. We don't want the heavy labor construction jobs, or the labor intensive manufacturing jobs, so here comes China and Taiwan and etc and they want that work. On top of it, they even will do it cheaper than we can.

The problem here isn't out sourcing, the problem is accepting the diminished quality. China can make tools just as good as we can, they don't because we (our country in general) don't care about quality we want cheap. So, China complies and gives us cheap.

I see posts on here all the time about tools that are made in other parts of the world that look like quality tools and some are down right beautiful works of art. The US isn't the only place a quality product can be made. Anyone can do it, the US as a whole has decided we don't really care and we can pick up a $1 ratchet to use twice and then buy another for $1 when it breaks.

Our schools are trying to get out of the business of teaching trades, my local school districts are trying to phase out all the shop classes, welding, wood working, auto mechanics, etc. They want all the kids learning to use computers. This kind of society soon won't care about turning a wrench let alone know how to turn a wrench, so why would they care about quality American made wrenches? We will have to outsource our auto repair, or bring in immigrant workers who want to do it and know how to do it.

This is all probably less about money than it is about a societal shift we are experiencing.

We should all be happy that we have so many options to get good quality tools, even if we have to buy them overseas and have them shipped to our door.

The hands on trades have no one but themselves to blame for the lack of qualified labor.

When you treat labor as an disposable item, people move to careers with more stability and higher wages.

 

[sberry]

The 10$ HF one is a known quanity, no more in it than a couple big Macs. Its not hard to waste 10$ anymore, it would be different if the HF ratchet was 50 and you could get the other one ebay for 15. Getting it at a disposable price may be an asset. Buy an expensive tool you got to worry about it forever. You never hear about anyone wanting a rebuild kit on an HF ratchet.

 

[Too_Many_Tools]

Good discussion guys and gals.