Craftsman : series time frame ?

[lauver]

MAD,

I just wanted to follow up again on post #71:

Can you supply approximate dates on your WF and PR drivers?

Can you supply approximate dates on your older garage sale finds; 5/16" blade with F series code (possible Miller Falls), another F series "Super Tuff", and G-circle series "Super Tuff". I could live with your purchase dates as approximations for their actual dates (with the understanding that they are probably older since you bought them used).

 

[lauver]

MAD & philw (are you guys out there?),

Ran across a new series code today. I was looking at a 7 piece set of professional nutdrivers (PN 52570). Six of the nutdrivers in the set had "W PR" series codes and PN's starting with 52***; however, one nutdriver had a different series code of "U PR3" and a PN of 47150.

Have either/both of you seen this series code before? Got any ideas? I'm thinking the manufacturer is Pratt Reed but may be a different manufacturing facility. Do either/both of you know where Pratt Reed facilities are?

Another possibility is that PR may have outsourced this one tool (perhaps a size they don't make) to a foreign manufacturer to meet Sears specifications on this set.

Your thoughts please.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Thought I'd add pics of my old Craftsman channel lock pliers. Never really thought anything about them, then noticed on the alloy artifacts site the grip pattern on pliers they show and thought it looked familiar. Diamond grip pattern and circle P mark. No idea when dad might have acquired these pliers.

Charles

 

[wrenchr]

I have a very old 3/8 craftsman breaker bar, The C in craftsman goes all the way underneath the logo. no pics

 

[MAD]

MAD,

I just wanted to follow up again on post #71:

Can you supply approximate dates on your WF and PR drivers?

Can you supply approximate dates on your older garage sale finds; 5/16" blade with F series code (possible Miller Falls), another F series "Super Tuff", and G-circle series "Super Tuff". I could live with your purchase dates as approximations for their actual dates (with the understanding that they are probably older since you bought them used).

I have seen and purchased both the WF (Western Forge) and PR (Pratt-Read) screwdrivers on and off through the years. I don’t think the dates of these purchases are very significant. Both makes have been for sale in the past year. My original set bought in the early 1980s was a WF set if that helps you. According to this article PR bought out A&L handle company in 1999 so it could make complete screwdrivers
http://www.constructiondist.com/publication/article.jsp?id=164

I noticed an H code on my short metric nut drivers. This same H code can be seen on nut drivers on the A&L Handles site (division of Pratt-Read) so I guess H is also Pratt-Read, perhaps a different plant than the PR marked tools.
http://www.alhandles.com/pages/specialty-items.htm

Perhaps I can tell you the dates of the F and G series screwdrivers including the big 1/2" flat blade as soon as Harbor Freight comes out with a cheap C-14 radiocarbon tool dating kit

 

[lauver]

wrenchr,

Pic's not required, but can you find a series code anywhere on the breaker bar (it could be stamped or forged into the tool)? This would be a necessary piece of information. Also, I'm assuming this is something you picked up used, or are you old enough to have picked it up new. If purchased new, can you supply and approximate date of purchase?

Remember the goal of this thread is to identify manufacturers and approximate production dates.

Thanks for the post,

 

[lauver]

Charles (In GA),

Nice find. You know the P-circle is Wilde, right? Can you make even a wild *** guess (a decade would be close enough) when your dad may have purchased that plier?

 

[wrenchr]

wrenchr,

Pic's not required, but can you find a series code anywhere on the breaker bar (it could be stamped or forged into the tool)? This would be a necessary piece of information. Also, I'm assuming this is something you picked up used, or are you old enough to have picked it up new. If purchased new, can you supply and approximate date of purchase?

Remember the goal of this thread is to identify manufacturers and approximate production dates.

Thanks for the post,

I will go look!!

 

[wrenchr]

Ok,
3/8 breaker bar has BE stamped right next to the logo and the handle it knurled.
1/2 ratchet has the screws that clamp the plate instead of the newer c clamp and there is a V.
Combination wrench 3/4 & 5/8 old logo there is a CI stamped on the back side.

 

[lauver]

wrencher,

Good work. We've already got reasonable and reliable date ranges for the BE and CI series tools. I'm interested in your V series 1/2" ratchet though; this is a newer tool than the others, and could likely have been purchased new by you. Do you remember about when you purchased it (plus or minus a few years)?

 

[wrenchr]

wrencher,

Good work. We've already got reasonable and reliable date ranges for the BE and CI series tools. I'm interested in your V series 1/2" ratchet though; this is a newer tool than the others, and could likely have been purchased new by you. Do you remember when you purchased it (plus or minus a few years)?

Sorry, I bought this @ the fleamarket and it does have the newer script on it. There is a oil hole in the top as well.

 

[wrenchr]

What are the date ranges for the BE and CI??

 

[wrenchr]

I will take pics but I do not know where the Wife put the camera.

 

[wrenchr]

The wrench was my Dads, And I do not know when he bought it. He passed going on 11 years ago.

 

[lauver]

MAD,

Good to hear from you again, I was beginning to think you skipped town or something.

I know you were kidding about carbon dating, but that's for the academic research anyway. We are doing field (garage) research, down and dirty (or down and greasy as the case may be). So your best recollections are going to have to do.

Nice piece of work on the PR/A&L connection. I like your idea about the H series being another possible code for PR, perhaps from the A&L production site. Most of my H series tools are in the socket accessory category (extensions and speeder handles) which doesn't fit. Sears has some of these H series socket accessory tools on their racks as we speak. Are you aware of PR or A&L producing these kinds of tools? If not, this makes H=PR less likely, or confounding at best. Your thoughts please!

 

[lauver]

wrenchr,

See post # 69 (above) for our working list of known series codes (this will be updated as new information is provided).

BE series production dates were from about 1931 - 1947

CI series production dates were from about 1930 - 1945

 

[lbgradwell]

Gary,

I was working at a client's this week and we got to talking tools...

He had a pair of US-made Craftsman locking pliers which would no longer be found among current stock in Canada. He wasn't sure when he bought them, but it was within the past 20 years for certain. They had the I-Circle mark which I've never encountered/noticed before and I see you attribute to Parker Mfg Co.

I've never heard of this company. What makes you believe them to be the manufacturer?

 

[lauver]

lbgradwell,

I hear what you're saying and I knew this was going to happen sooner or later. Here's the deal, I listed Parker Mfg Co. as the "possible manufacturer" (not the known manufacturer). This was based on a patend number found on one of the I-circle tools; the patend was issued to Parker Mfg Co. MAD did the patend search on this and until I have some other plausible manufacturing candidates (as of now we have none) I'm sticking to my story.

My post (#69) was/is a "starting point", it was our best guess at the posting time. I will be updating this information as new and more compelling information becomes available. You will note, however, that there has been very little new or more compelling information submitted since I went public with post #69. You will also note that I have posted several more times seeking questions, concerns, and more importantly, additional information regarding the many unknowns in my starting point list. By all means, if you got something new on the I-circle series code, bring it on. I look forward to resolving the I-circle (and other series code) manufacturer uncertainty.

 

[MAD]

Gary,

I was working at a client's this week and we got to talking tools...

He had a pair of US-made Craftsman locking pliers which would no longer be found among current stock in Canada. He wasn't sure when he bought them, but it was within the past 20 years for certain. They had the I-Circle mark which I've never encountered/noticed before and I see you attribute to Parker Mfg Co.

I've never heard of this company. What makes you believe them to be the manufacturer?

The patent on my I-circle ratcheting box wrench was issued to Parker mfg. I stumbled accross this when I poked around some more.

http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/308/308.F2d.705.6716_1.html

 

[eschoendorff]

It would be cool if there were some way to get guys like Bill Kiss or Henry Ferris (Craftsman brand directors) in on this project... I looked for ways to contact them, but maybe others will have more luck.

Another interesting read is the message from Chairman Ed Lampert, addressed to investors:

http://www.searsholdings.com/invest/

This statement (under resources) sort of highlights the general philosophy behind the brands and may provide some clue as to why Craftsman quality is not the same as in previous years:

"One of our most important resources is the great brands we own, in particular DieHard, Craftsman, Kenmore, and Lands’ End. All four of these brands have significant equity with customers and provide tremendous opportunity for value creation. To illustrate, let me discuss one of them, DieHard, in more detail. Based on brand recognition studies, DieHard leads in customer recognition among car battery brands by a wide margin, but it lags dramatically in market share. Why? We believe it is due to fewer points of distribution. As a proprietary brand, DieHard is only available in 900 Sears Auto Centers and 1,400 Kmart stores. Yet it is competing with other batteries that are available in thousands of locations across the country. Further, a car battery purchase is a duress purchase event, in which the customer is looking for the nearest, most convenient solution. Unfortunately, it is not always us, but there is an opportunity for us to rethink our brand distribution strategy to create value. "

Interesting read, anyway.... it seems that the emphasis is being put on apparent brand recognition rather than quality. They seem to be letting brands rest on reputations that are quickly showing lapses in quality. but it really doesn't matter if their is brand recognition.. that is until the lack of quality catches up with them. By then, the damage is done and the brand name will mean little...

It's so sad, it actually kind of pisses me off. It's an insult to our intelligence!

 

[lbgradwell]

Sorry guys!

I should have read the earlier posts more closely... I'm on side with the presumption of Parker Mfg Co. (whoever they are or may have been) for I-Circle until proven otherwise!

 

[paramudduck]

I know every one wants to forget them. But has anyone mentioned the ? 80's?
Taiwanese E series Craftsman Series?

 

[lbgradwell]

I know every one wants to forget them. But has anyone mentioned the ? 80's?
Taiwanese E series Craftsman Series?

I've never seen any Taiwan E-Series, but I have US-made E and EE series from Easco from that time...

 

[lauver]

Paramudduck,

I'm with lbgradwell, I've never seen a Taiwanese E. I have to say, though, I don't own any E's. I do have a number of the Easco USA-made EE's.

Do you have any E's? If so, what is the country(s) of origin and about when did you purchase them?

 

[lauver]

lbgradwell,

Your post #103 above gave me an idea. Would you double check your E and EE tools:

Do you have any that were manufactured outside the USA?

Do you have any that were purchased outside the date ranges I currently have posted?

What is your earliest E and your earliest EE?

Do your E's and EE's have overlapping date ranges or do they have nonoverlapping date ranges?

If the E's and EE's are nonoverlapping, what are the sub date ranges for E's and EEs?

I wouldn't ask but I have no E's and few EE's.

Thanks

 

[paramudduck]

If I remember right I got them as a gift in the 1980's. I will have to wait until the swelling in the calf goes down.Then I will go dig them out and make sure. But I was looking at them a couple of days ago and I remember the E. I have sockets Ratchet and wrenches still around from that set.

I don't have a Camera right now I'll have to see what I can do about pics. The ratchet is the round head style.

 

[lauver]

Paramudduck,

Photo's not required. If all your E's are all from one set, your date of 1980's is all I need date wise (if your E's were bought at different times I need other purchase dates). So the unresolved question is where your E's were manufactured. Simply check all your E's for country of origin and post your results. If all were made in USA that's pretty easy. If all were made in a foreign country that's pretty easy. But, if some were made in the USA and some were made elsewhere, it's a little more complicated and might indicate multiple purchases (i.e. would require multiple purchase dates and multiple countries of origin).

 

[T56 Impala]

I'm not real sure what kind of information you are lookng for. I have dang near evey leter of the alphabet on my Craftsman tools. G, VV, VupsidedownV, BF, BH, some with no alphaumeric code at all. I have some, with what appear to be Craftsman/sears numbers on them but do not say Craftsman or sears. Some, that I think came in the same set, have different letters too. It would be very hard for me to even put an approxmate date of purchase on most of this stuff.

I do have a set of slip lock pliers from the 1980's that are Craftsman made in Japan. No code of any kind on them, Just Craftsman and Japan.

 

[Chris Adams]

Since you guys are the experts, perhaps you can help me with a ratchet I just picked up from my sister.
She was going to take it in for a trade as she thinks it slipped once.
She inherited it from a close friend who was a collector of old cars. He actually made living providing period cars to the movies.
Anyway, among the many tools she got was this ratchet;
It's got a Circle around a U which seems to be the date code. I will post pictures shortly if needed.
The selector lever is on the front, not the back and is stamped metal, not cast or forged.
The handle says Craftsman on one side and Forged in USA on the other. That's the only marks.
Its 1/2 drive.
Bright looks almost aluminum colored.
She wants to know if it's worth more than trade in at Sears value.
Any help would be appreciated.

 

[lauver]

T56 Impala,

Let's start with a few general questions:

About how many Craftsman tools do you have (approximate, don't count)?

About when did you start buying C-man tools?

When was your most recent C-man purchase?

Were your tool purchases fairly even between your first and last purchase?

 

[lauver]

Chris Adams,

I think a couple of readable pictures would help me and others try to identify the ratchet. We need to see both sides of the ratchet. We need to be able to read anything stamped or forged on the tool (usually on handle). A couple close up shots (both sides) of the ratchet head would be heplful too.

It sounds like an early ratchet, pre 1946. Do not take it to Sears and trade for a newer one!!! Let's get a look at it first.

Post away. I'll be online till 11:00 or 12:00 tonight.

 

[Chris Adams]

It is actually in pretty good shape.

 

[lauver]

Chris,

Now you've gone and done it. You've come up with a Series code (U-circle) we've never seen before. We need to let some of the guys who collect these tools have a look at your photo's. I'm fairly certain from the general design of this ratchet that it is not an early ratchet. I'm thinking modern, about 1946 - 1949. Regardless of the actual date, it's still a "collectable".

One thing that would help is a close up picture of the Craftsman script (aka logo) on the handle. Make sure that the script is very readable. That will help determine it's age. Also, is there a Craftsman part number anywhere on the ratchet? If so, can you post the number? If not, no big deal. Thanks.

 

[wrenchr]

I'm willing to bet that ratchet is from the early to mid 50's.

 

[wrenchr]

Chris,
I think the gear is in backwards as well, that is the same design that Fleet used from the 50's.

 

[wrenchr]

I have won this and will advise the code when it arrives.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200210192525&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=010

 

[Chris Adams]

Possible the gear is in backwards. I can take it down in the morning and see if it fits both ways.
I have the feeling that is is from about 1959-1964 as I faintly recall seeing something like it around that time.

These are as good as I can get without using my wife's better camera or sweet talking her into doing it in the AM.

 

[old salvage]

Chris,
I think the gear is in backwards as well, that is the same design that Fleet used from the 50's.

Thats the first thing i thought.
I bet Penens or Proto was the mfg for Sears.

 

[lauver]

Old Salvage,

What's your estimate of the date range on the ratchet? Have you seen the U-circle series code before? Do you know what the finish/plating is on this ratchet? Does the finish/plating lead you one way or the other between Penens or Proto?

 

[lauver]

Chris,

Thanks for the latest photo's. This ratchet is definitely a modern series, likely from post WWII era. It is probably not worth a whole lot of money, but it is definitely a "keeper". It would be a shame to trade this ratchet in for a new one!

I agree with wrenchr; the ratchet mechanism has been assembled incorrectly. Disassemble it, clean it, lube it, and reassemble it correctly. You'll have a nice piece of history that should serve you well for the rest of your life.