Cutting a garage door

[markvfr]

I need some opinions guys. After putting my garage up, and realizing that less than 12 inches of clearance between the top of the door and the ceiling would be a problem, I'm a little stuck. The problem is that, during the door opening, the first panel rubs on the ceiling before flattening into the trajectory and ending up around 5 inches off the ceiling.

Do to this s*itty arrangement, there is no room for the conventional opener, so I got the LM3800 which is fine since I really like those. Now, the problem is, that when you set the limits and the door drags on the ceiling, it stops the garage door from opening. Because they are 3800, I was told that the low clearance solution (double tracks) won't work. So the only option I've concluded is to cut the top door panel (since I have room from the top of the door to the top of the door opening) about three inches and thus also cutting the tracks at the bottom allowing for more clearance.

Is there other options that I could entertain or am I resigned to taking a skill saw to the top of the door, exposing the insulation (is there a cap to cover that?) and live with it?

Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks.

Mark

 

[PassnThru]

I wonder if moving the top roller brackets up a little would cause it to crown sooner and miss the ceiling?

 

[nehog]

Sounds like a candidate for a two track installation...

 

[timewarp]

I don't see why the 3800 won't work with a low clearance double track system. I thought that was the benefit, that they didn't need much room?

 

[Addrock]

+1 on the liftmaster 3800

 

[jstroede]

I wonder if moving the top roller brackets up a little would cause it to crown sooner and miss the ceiling?

This is the first thing to try if possible. There are a few ways to do this. Take a picture of the top of your door and post it and I can post recommendations.

Another option would be to use quick turn top fixtures if the first suggestion doesn't work

What is the radius of the horizontal track? That would be the next easiest thing to change.

Whatever you do, do not cut the door!!

And yes, you were told correctly, the 3800 will not work with a low headroom arrangement. This is because you move the cable drums to the outside of the bearing plates and the springs have to be wound backwards, and thus the shaft turns backwards.

John

 

[LIVELY]

Without pics it is hard to see.

The quicker turning radius should do it .BUT if not

I have cut the ceiling out and recessed the area where the door rubs.

Alot of the doors are highest at the turning point compared to the rest of the movement -up and down.

Also, the back of the tracks[ farthest from the door opening ] can be lowered some , too.If needed .

I know this goes against the norm for the PRO but it does work .

 

[timewarp]

And yes, you were told correctly, the 3800 will not work with a low headroom arrangement. This is because you move the cable drums to the outside of the bearing plates and the springs have to be wound backwards, and thus the shaft turns backwards.

John

Why would the 3800 care which direction it rotated for up or down? I don't have one but am just curious. Doesn't it spin the other way if you change it from one side of a door to the other, I've seen you can do that?

 

[pfmg]

Quick turn brackets should do the trick

http://overheaddoorparts.com/qutubr1.html/

 

[markvfr]

Ok, thanks guys. I'll take a few pictures tonight and post them up for analysis. Another kink in the plan is, the 3800 needs the horizontal track to be perfectly horizontal or slightly angled towards the door opening in order to allow the gravity to take care of the door when closing. I was just playing with the smaller nine foot door and the cables jumped off the drum since the tracks are angled away from the door opening. Grrrr. That is why I thought cutting the tracks and the door would be the best solution since I think the idiots who delivered the door delivered them too big (thus over 4 inches of room on top).

Just curious, why cutting the door is such a bad idea?

Anyway, pictures coming.

 

[markvfr]

ok, here is the first pic showing the radius, the slope to the back and clearance to the ceiling

The 9' door from far showing vertical clearance to door:

Not much room to move the rollers. Actually the installer did move them to allow more clearance but then the door wouldn't be fully vertical when closed and had a huge gap at the top.

Another angle. Crappy pics but its -20 right now and didn't feel like staging pics.

Let me know what you think.

Cheers,
Mark

 

[markvfr]

Quick turn brackets should do the trick

http://overheaddoorparts.com/qutubr1.html/

Hmm, cool. Would these work now that I've posted photos? Sorry, but I don't know much about doors and I'm definitely not calling the guy back who installed the doors.

 

[1320stang]

It would seem to me that you could lower the horizontal rails down to the bottom slot on the bracket where the cable wheels are, this would involve cutting the vertical rail so you could move the curve down as well. Then the top rollers would be loosened and moved out as they would be higher up on the curve, therefore further back. If you don't have enough room to move them far enough back, you could fabricate a plate that attaches to the angle they bolt to and the roller bracket itself.

 

[jstroede]

Why would the 3800 care which direction it rotated for up or down? I don't have one but am just curious. Doesn't it spin the other way if you change it from one side of a door to the other, I've seen you can do that?

It doesn't matter which side it is mounted on, it still turns the shaft the same direction. It is also not as simple as just flipping things around due to the fail-safes that are in place (photo eyes, cable tension monitors, etc). I have wondered about possibly doing something like a ceiling mount flipping the whole unit around, but that still leaves the cable tension monitor, which is a problem because of where the cables are located on LHR track.

John

 

[jstroede]

Ok, thanks guys. I'll take a few pictures tonight and post them up for analysis. Another kink in the plan is, the 3800 needs the horizontal track to be perfectly horizontal or slightly angled towards the door opening in order to allow the gravity to take care of the door when closing. I was just playing with the smaller nine foot door and the cables jumped off the drum since the tracks are angled away from the door opening. Grrrr. That is why I thought cutting the tracks and the door would be the best solution since I think the idiots who delivered the door delivered them too big (thus over 4 inches of room on top).

Just curious, why cutting the door is such a bad idea?

Anyway, pictures coming.

How tall is the door? How tall is your opening?

Cutting the door will cause the section to fail...it will not be if, it will be when. You could cut down the old wood doors, but not so with steel doors such as you have.

John

 

[jstroede]

ok, here is the first pic showing the radius, the slope to the back and clearance to the ceiling

The 9' door from far showing vertical clearance to door:

Not much room to move the rollers. Actually the installer did move them to allow more clearance but then the door wouldn't be fully vertical when closed and had a huge gap at the top.

Another angle. Crappy pics but its -20 right now and didn't feel like staging pics.

Let me know what you think.

Cheers,
Mark

Ok, I will comment on everything I see here. First of all, YIKES. That downhill run on that track is bad. Why are they sloped that far down? Your point of least clearance is generally up as the top section is moving through the radius. Speaking of which, what is the radius of the horizontal track? It looks like 15" radius, but it is hard to tell. Common options on track radius are 12" and 15".

Next, looking at your top roller carriers, you have a little room for adjustment, but not a lot. With that, you have a couple of different options. One you can shim out what you have with a block of wood. With that, you can move the bracket all the way to the top of the door and it will move through the radius without going as high. They will however lose clearance for you at the back if you really are that close that you had to drop the back of the track that much. There is a larger bracket for that application that is used in commercial doors that would work as well, but again, same scenario at the back. The third option is the quick turn fixtures as shown in the link. I do not normally like to use those, but this application is one where they make sense. I will say however that the price in that link is really high.

Overall, my first impression in seeing that is that I would decrease the radius of the track first. If this is a new install, call them back and make them fix it. If that is 15" radius like I suspect, go to 12". If it is 12" radius, they do make 10" radius and again it is something that I do not like to use, but we have it for a reason. You could also cut a little bit off the bottom of the vertical track and move everything down, which has the same affect as moving your top fixtures, but that entails a moving a lot of parts and pieces.

I'm sorry to see that you have such a mess on your hands. There are ways to address it, but it will take some work.

John

 

[timewarp]

It doesn't matter which side it is mounted on, it still turns the shaft the same direction. It is also not as simple as just flipping things around due to the fail-safes that are in place (photo eyes, cable tension monitors, etc). I have wondered about possibly doing something like a ceiling mount flipping the whole unit around, but that still leaves the cable tension monitor, which is a problem because of where the cables are located on LHR track.

John

Thanks for the response.
Caleb

 

[stevefasano]

removed due to

 

[stevefasano]

removed due to

 

[stingry]

Ok, thanks guys. I'll take a few pictures tonight and post them up for analysis. Another kink in the plan is, the 3800 needs the horizontal track to be perfectly horizontal or slightly angled towards the door opening in order to allow the gravity to take care of the door when closing. I was just playing with the smaller nine foot door and the cables jumped off the drum since the tracks are angled away from the door opening. Grrrr. That is why I thought cutting the tracks and the door would be the best solution since I think the idiots who delivered the door delivered them too big (thus over 4 inches of room on top).
Just curious, why cutting the door is such a bad idea?

Anyway, pictures coming.

Your door is too tall!! it should only be as tall as the door opening. Have the "idiots" (probably wouldn't call them that when you call them!!) come back and put a smaller panel in and lower the tracks. Bad installation.

Cheers
Steve

 

[BrianS]

As your 3800s,,remove and pack them in a box and sell ,,then use a center openers..
I bought the 3800 and it lift ok and thats it...The door will not go down..the 3800 needs gravity to go down..I has to have one panel down to start the gravity but i have a 8 high door and i like to open the door all the way up..not have one panel down so i hit my head...
The 3800s need some more testing before they hit the market..They work nice on some setups but not all setups...

You can still use the 3800 jackshaft openers even when you don't have enough clearance to allow the last door panel to hang. You have to use what are called "pusher springs". The installer did that on one of my doors with low overhead clearance. These springs are mounted to the end of the track so when the door comes up it compresses the spring a few inches. This spring gives it the push to start coming down without the need for gravity.

 

[markvfr]

Your door is too tall!! it should only be as tall as the door opening. Have the "idiots" (probably wouldn't call them that when you call them!!) come back and put a smaller panel in and lower the tracks. Bad installation.

Cheers
Steve

That is exactly what I think too. Its now -25 and will be -30 tonight, and I'm not working on it in this cold. I got the door together with the garage package, and then had an installer come to put it in. I'm up sh*t creek anyway, even if I get the smaller panel, I still have to disassable the door and alter the tracks since the slope of the rails is wrong. (or get the guy to do it, and pay for it again). For fack sakes.

 

[markvfr]

This is the first thing to try if possible. There are a few ways to do this. Take a picture of the top of your door and post it and I can post recommendations.

Another option would be to use quick turn top fixtures if the first suggestion doesn't work

What is the radius of the horizontal track? That would be the next easiest thing to change.

Whatever you do, do not cut the door!!

And yes, you were told correctly, the 3800 will not work with a low headroom arrangement. This is because you move the cable drums to the outside of the bearing plates and the springs have to be wound backwards, and thus the shaft turns backwards.

John

John, I just measured the radius and it is 15". I just talked to the store that sold me the package and they said they haven't seen any of those problems that I am experiencing. I just measured the size of the door vs the height of the garage and its correct (ie. the door is not too tall). Wall height 9'10", door height 8'10". Maybe they sold me the wrong radius of the track? Thanks.

 

[Zeke]

I think you should have bought a 5 panel door instead of the 4.

 

[35mastr]

Low overhead track would stop it from hitting on top if that is the issue. All my doors have less than 12 inches from the top.

 

[stingry]

John, I just measured the radius and it is 15". I just talked to the store that sold me the package and they said they haven't seen any of those problems that I am experiencing. I just measured the size of the door vs the height of the garage and its correct (ie. the door is not too tall). Wall height 9'10", door height 8'10". Maybe they sold me the wrong radius of the track? Thanks.

If you have four inches of door over the top of your opening, your door is too tall!!! A shorter door will lower the entire track system and your problem is solved.

Steve

 

[jstroede]

John, I just measured the radius and it is 15". I just talked to the store that sold me the package and they said they haven't seen any of those problems that I am experiencing. I just measured the size of the door vs the height of the garage and its correct (ie. the door is not too tall). Wall height 9'10", door height 8'10". Maybe they sold me the wrong radius of the track? Thanks.

How tall is the door opening? How tall is each section?

John

 

[jstroede]

Low overhead track would stop it from hitting on top if that is the issue. All my doors have less than 12 inches from the top.

Low headroom track will not work with his jackshaft openers.

John

 

[stingry]

Here is an exerpt from the Clopay Door site:




Garage Door Installation

How-To-Measure For Your New Residential Garage Door
Use the drawing and instructions below to measure your garage door. Take these measurements to your local retailer to purchase the Clopay garage door that is right for you.


Step #1 Measure the width and height of the door opening in feet and inches, which will determine the garage door size you need. The rough opening should be the same size as the door.
Step #2 Measure for sideroom - 3-3/4" is required on each side for installation of the vertical track for standard extension springs, standard torsion springs and the EZ-SET Torsion Spring System; 5-1/2" for EZ-SET Extension Spring System.

Step #3 Measure area labeled “headroom” – distance between the top of the door opening (“jamb header”) and the ceiling (or floor joist). 10" is required for the standard extension spring or EZ-SET Extension Spring System, while 12" is required for standard torsion spring and EZ-SET Torsion Spring System. If you have restricted headroom, special hardware is available. Additional headroom is required for installation of an automatic garage door opener. NOTE: If door height extends above the opening, the headroom measurement should be adjusted proportionately.
Step #4 Measure area labeled “backroom” – distance is measured from the garage door opening toward the back wall of the garage. Door height plus

 

[35mastr]

Low headroom track will not work with his jackshaft openers.

John

Can you explain why. My neighbor has 6-8" of headroom on his door and I put a 3800 on it. I just mounted it to the wall and a used # 60 chain and some Martin gears with a 1" keyed shaft. It can be done. Been working flawlessly for years now.

 

[Winneratalosinggame]

I need some opinions guys. After putting my garage up, and realizing that less than 12 inches of clearance between the top of the door and the ceiling would be a problem, I'm a little stuck. The problem is that, during the door opening, the first panel rubs on the ceiling before flattening into the trajectory and ending up around 5 inches off the ceiling.

Do to this s*itty arrangement, there is no room for the conventional opener, so I got the LM3800 which is fine since I really like those. Now, the problem is, that when you set the limits and the door drags on the ceiling, it stops the garage door from opening. Because they are 3800, I was told that the low clearance solution (double tracks) won't work. So the only option I've concluded is to cut the top door panel (since I have room from the top of the door to the top of the door opening) about three inches and thus also cutting the tracks at the bottom allowing for more clearance.

Is there other options that I could entertain or am I resigned to taking a skill saw to the top of the door, exposing the insulation (is there a cap to cover that?) and live with it?

Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks.

Mark

With the low clearance track and a 3800 operator it will work. Trim the bottom of the track to gain extra clearance. Do not cut the top panel or operator will tear the door in half Contact door manufacturer for a short panel, Panels come in 18" 20" and 24" Height's for residential panels.

 

[Winneratalosinggame]

You can still use the 3800 jackshaft openers even when you don't have enough clearance to allow the last door panel to hang. You have to use what are called "pusher springs". The installer did that on one of my doors with low overhead clearance. These springs are mounted to the end of the track so when the door comes up it compresses the spring a few inches. This spring gives it the push to start coming down without the need for gravity.

Right, Or they also offer Counterweights to give the initial pull.

 

[jstroede]

And yes, you were told correctly, the 3800 will not work with a low headroom arrangement. This is because you move the cable drums to the outside of the bearing plates and the springs have to be wound backwards, and thus the shaft turns backwards.

John

I talked about this before. LHR track two separate horizontal tracks, with the top roller carrier in the separate top track and the other rollers riding as normal in the lower track. What this does is allows the top of the door to move more back than up as it is starting to move. Also, paired with this horizontal track configuration are a couple of other changes. The first change is that the vertical tracks are shorter. Secondly, the drums are mounted on the outside of the end bearings, and the door uses a special bottom fixture to mount the cable on the outside of the track. One of the downsides of this configuration is that the springs must be wound the opposite direction as normal, and thus the shaft turns the opposite direction of a standard 12" or 15" radius configuration. The 3800 cannot account for that. One other downside to this type of track is that the door will not pull up as far out of the opening when the door is in the open position.

John

 

[jstroede]

With the low clearance track and a 3800 operator it will work. Trim the bottom of the track to gain extra clearance. Do not cut the top panel or operator will tear the door in half Contact door manufacturer for a short panel, Panels come in 18" 20" and 24" Height's for residential panels.

Cutting the verticals short really doesn't make it low clearance track. Also, many companies make 18" and 21" panels for residential and 21" and 24" for commercial, but there are many other configurations as well. Some manufacturers make 19", 20", 24", 28", 32", and other sizes of panels, but they are not nearly as common.

John

 

[markvfr]

ok, thanks guys for all the suggestions. It ended up being a simple fix in theory as many of you suggested. The vertical tracks were too tall. I had a 12in radius after all, and the vertical tracks had to be at 95.5in and they were at 98.5. I hired another guy to fix all the mistakes and it would have been easier to just start from scratch. I ended up paying for the job twice, since I already paid the first guy a few months ago when he installed the doors. The full flaws didn't come out 'til he came back to install the openers. Oh well, live and learn.
The funny thing is, I have built the whole garage myself except for the concrete and garage doors. What ended up being effed up and a battle on my hands? Concrete and garage doors.

 

[jkruger1]

i have 3800's with 12" radius and there is no clearance for the cable tension monitors because it lowers the drum to close to the door so i would do some research before you buy 12" radius track. reading this gave me the idea to go get 15" turns thanx

 

[Schtauffer]

LHR track is what you need my friend, no question.

3800's only work standard rotation. They will work on LHR if the torsion spring is set up for standard rotation; most LHR is done with reverse rotation to help pull the door open as far as possible.

To get this particular door working, the best thing would be LHR with a trolley opener. If you are set on using the 3800, then install LHR track with the horizontals pitched uphill as much as possible and the spring set up to standard rotation. It should work, but probably not well. You really need LHR and a trolley op.

 

[Schtauffer]

Oh yeah, don't cut that door down. That particular brand and model is not a good one for that.

 

[Beaner242]

I think I would just adjust those upper rollers to get your clearance then add a piece of trim and weatherstrip to the outside to fill the gap.

 

[nissan_crawler]

Do you guys read? It's fixed.