Daisy chaining 220 welding outlets

[rotortuner]

Ok so my goal is to try and minimize my use of extension cords by adding more 220 outlets. My walls are pretty long 60-70ft and with wire running over a buck a foot I’m thinking of putting more than one outlet per circuit. I’m using 8ga and it seams like these Leviton outlets easily accommodate double lugging. Is this legal ?

 

[sberry]

Only 1 wire to an outlet. With a cable it might technically in a strict sense require 6 but in a small garage where you can see them all its not gonna burn the joint down. You need a deep 4x4 box to make a splice. If the first outlet is relatively close it doesn't add a lot to run another wire. A home for the welder is a good thing, sometimes some cord isn't all bad and as easy as fiddling with hookon. How many machines do you plan on owning, a plasma too? That's a pain to change out all the time . What class machine? There are a couple different ways to wire this circuit.
The easiest way for sure especially for diy is I outlet to a circuit. Even though the wall is long it doesn't need outlet all the way in a corner, might be worth working a little ergonomics out.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ok so my goal is to try and minimize my use of extension cords by adding more 220 outlets. My walls are pretty long 60-70ft and with wire running over a buck a foot I’m thinking of putting more than one outlet per circuit. I’m using 8ga and it seams like these Leviton outlets easily accommodate double lugging. Is this legal ?

No not ok

Only 1 wire per lug.

You will need to splice with wire nuts or split bolts.

Also, if your AHJ has adopted IBC code, then you cannot have multiple 240v outlets above 20a on same circuit

 

[Terry D]

These lugs are only designed for one wire

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[sberry]

I did one for a bud who bought a new 375 plaz and a 211 who was out of additional spaces. He had a 225 buzzer, we removed the outlet, made a jbox out of it, spliced 2 additional 10 to the old 6 and added 2 recepts.

 

[driftpin]

OK, I'm no 'sparky,' so I dunno what this type of switch is called or if what I'm thinking, is possible. It's an A-B knife switch/disconnect, and 'neither A nor B' in the center of the throw. That way, one line can power two devices, just not at the same time.

Do those boxes have a center-lockout where the lever to the knife switch cannot be in-contact with either set of knife switch contact pairs?

 

[Fasthotrod]

OK, I'm no 'sparky,' so I dunno what this type of switch is called or if what I'm thinking, is possible. It's an A-B knife switch/disconnect, and 'neither A nor B' in the center of the throw. That way, one line can power two devices, just not at the same time.

Do those boxes have a center-lockout where the lever to the knife switch cannot be in-contact with either set of knife switch contact pairs?

"Double throw disconnect" is likely what you're thinking of here. One like this might work, depending on the ampere rating needed.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-30-A...-Double-Throw-Safety-Switch-TC35321/202978650

Mark

 

[driftpin]

OK, I'm no 'sparky,' so I dunno what this type of switch is called or if what I'm thinking, is possible. It's an A-B knife switch/disconnect, and 'neither A nor B' in the center of the throw. That way, one line can power two devices, just not at the same time.

Do those boxes have a center-lockout where the lever to the knife switch cannot be in-contact with either set of knife switch contact pairs?

"Double throw disconnect" is likely what you're thinking of here. One like this might work, depending on the ampere rating needed.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-30-A...-Double-Throw-Safety-Switch-TC35321/202978650

Mark

Yep, I have one I've never-used, not sure as to the amps rating. I got it at a yard sale, BNIB and it's just sitting. This one you posted has a lockout flange which is what I wondered-about. I bet the OP could use one of these, to meet his needs and the code.

 

[sberry]

They don't need one here. This is all local and the components are to be designed so it cant be overloaded anyway.

 

[Brandon_oma#692]

I am going to put in a sub panel off my garage sub panel for this reason. I want 3 welder outlets plus a 14-50 in my garage as far away from my current sub panel as you could get. The new sub panel will be like a power strip for 240v outlets basically. It will be nice to alternate welding and plasma cutting without unplugging all the time.

 

[sberry]

I wired a neighbor deal recently, 2 on one breaker to prevent him from using a cord, he is really,,, less than,, well,,, ok about that kind of thing. 2 recepts on one breaker but not on the same wire. Breaker has provisions for 2 wires. If he tried to use both would trip it.
Its been so long since I read some of this but seems I recall somewhere about allowing 2 in a garage for a welder as a "convemnience" outlet expressly for the purpose of reducing cords.

 

[u2slow]

Ok so my goal is to try and minimize my use of extension cords by adding more 220 outlets. My walls are pretty long 60-70ft and with wire running over a buck a foot I’m thinking of putting more than one outlet per circuit. I’m using 8ga and it seams like these Leviton outlets easily accommodate double lugging. Is this legal ?

Check your equipment's manual for actual current and wire requirements. #8 is overkill in most cases. #10-12 wire is much easier to deal with, and cheaper.

FWIW, I use daisy-chained 6-20R outlets in my shop for the 240V compressor and welder.

 

[Cruzan80]

The issue here is for outlets over 20A. You are allowed to daisy-chain up to 20A outlets on IBC (see post #3).

 

[matt_i]

I did one for a bud who bought a new 375 plaz and a 211 who was out of additional spaces. He had a 225 buzzer, we removed the outlet, made a jbox out of it, spliced 2 additional 10 to the old 6 and added 2 recepts.

Ah, if I read this right this isn't a good idea in my opinion.

If originally a #6 circuit with circuit protection for 50-60A, adding in #10s to the Jbox under split bolts (etc) will easily overload the #10awg adders.

I would vote for wiring this as all #6 so the circuit protection is aligned with protecting the downstream conductors all the way thru, no matter how it gets used.

Or, pull out all the #6s and downgrade the breaker to 30A and rewire it all with #10 awg.

 

[Bert_]

Ah, if I read this right this isn't a good idea in my opinion.

If originally a #6 circuit with circuit protection for 50-60A, adding in #10s to the Jbox under split bolts (etc) will easily overload the #10awg adders.

I would vote for wiring this as all #6 so the circuit protection is aligned with protecting the downstream conductors all the way thru, no matter how it gets used.

Or, pull out all the #6s and downgrade the breaker to 30A and rewire it all with #10 awg.

That might be your opinion but the #10 on a 50 for welders is clearly allowed and accepted in the NEC

 

[u2slow]

The issue here is for outlets over 20A. You are allowed to daisy-chain up to 20A outlets on IBC (see post #3).

Yes - but its not determined if the OP needs that large a circuit in the first place.

 

[purplezr2]

Just use an extension cord, its not that bad.

 

[alfredeneuman]

OK, I'm no 'sparky,' so I dunno what this type of switch is called or if what I'm thinking, is possible. It's an A-B knife switch/disconnect, and 'neither A nor B' in the center of the throw.

It's called a transfer switch

 

[sberry]

I didn't daisey chain the 10. They are spliced to the 6. A 225 is legal on this 10 wire. Assuming he hooked it up to 1 and the 211 to the other and welded, the combination would trip the 50. They cant overheat the 6. He unhooked the 225 and plugged in a 375 plasma,,, another 25A machine like the 211, they are legal on 50A circuits so,,, neither will overload the 10 they are on, combination wouldn't overload a 6 or 8 for that matter due to duty cycle and the 50 will tolerate both at the same time.

 

[mike93lx]

Just use an extension cord, its not that bad.

Seriously. If anything use an extension cord until you learn your usage patterns enough to know where an outlet makes sense. How many different places in a shop are you really going to be Welding?

 

[sberry]

I removed 2 welder recepts in my last remodel. I I never used and 1 I used a couple times, it could be put back if ever needed. I welded there a bit ago, don't recall now what cord I used. I think I might have unplugged the pressure washer. So rare a cord or a replug is irrelevent. Keep 5 machines plugged in at their homes. Another one with breaker off. Just don't use it.
Pic 4, this machine has a home at this bench, reaches both benches. Can be welding in 30 seconds, neat enough we don't need a formal fire watch every time we run a little bead.

 

[rotortuner]

Ok lots of good ideas. I think I got my question answered that the double lugging in the outlet is pretty bad form. I may consider split bolt splices for a couple. Thanks guys.

 

[matt_i]

That might be your opinion but the #10 on a 50 for welders is clearly allowed and accepted in the NEC

And I agree with that. I was thinking more along the lines that it would get wired like that and someday someone could plug in an old electric range they found on the roadside to cure their powder coated parts.

Hey the 6-50 male plug fits just fine and the range fits right here where the welder used to be!

It might not even be you, the property could sell and it could be someone else's issue.

How this is handled is reliant on labeling and personal responsibility.

 

[sberry]

This has been in code for a long time. If people burned down they would have fixxed it with a pen over several,,, dozens of code cycles over the last 75 years. The code does assume some stuff,,, like the installers using correct plugs, most heavy ovens and ranges use a different plug.
I have studied plugs and cords, I am/was amazed the back and forth intracacies that are designed in are quite amazing, lots of it got to be thought thru, **** doesn't even occur to us especially at first glance.
What I have found is I really am above my pay grade if I try to outhink it all,, they wayyyyyyy ahead of me, they already thought of it even if it hasn't occurred to me yet. None of my thought, my ideas, a fault I think I found, none of it is original.
Old Hank used to do Miller/Hobart forums was a master spark used to say,,, wire it up with a 10 cable and use it. Just do it. I know some fire investigators, I asked about some of this,,, they said never ,, seen all kinds of fires from the end use but not from the primary wire on dedicated appliances.
Heaters on modified circuits and to extension cords, overload kitchen counter tops number 1, old ****. I was in a place had some new circuits but they all went to new additions with no load, whole place was daisy chained to 2 or 3 circuits, all had the fuses changed to 30. Neutral connected at weather head with a couple strands, about a number 16, kitchen and half the house on one old kt about a 14, wonder it didn't glow, maybe it did. A dozen different wires bootlegged on to it, all over the place for decades, wire laying across metal pipe, really scary.

 

[sberry]

I am going to strip some wire out of this,, ha.

 

[u2slow]

And I agree with that. I was thinking more along the lines that it would get wired like that and someday someone could plug in an old electric range they found on the roadside to cure their powder coated parts.

Hey the 6-50 male plug fits just fine and the range fits right here where the welder used to be!

It might not even be you, the property could sell and it could be someone else's issue.

How this is handled is reliant on labeling and personal responsibility.

Last I checked, a range plug has 4 pins and won't fit in a 6-50R.

Can't reasonably idiot-proof for future idiots... no telling what they'll be capable of.

 

[mike93lx]

Last I checked, a range plug has 4 pins and won't fit in a 6-50R.

Can't reasonably idiot-proof for future idiots... no telling what they'll be capable of.

But what if they change the cord on the range and plug it in? Or the receptacle? Think of the children!

 

[Cruzan80]

That resembles my main box. And it was rewired a couple of years ago. Guys that did it were idiots. Every time I have to go in it, I keep cleaning it up. Eventually it will look right.

I am going to strip some wire out of this,, ha.

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[brewchief]

I bought a 50' welder extension cord on ebay for 100$, with only 2 outlets in a 50x100 building it has worked out just fine. There are times were even if there was a welder plug every few feet along all the walls that we would still need some sort of longer cord then the welder came with.

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[ArcticGabe]

I am going to strip some wire out of this,, ha.

Hey, when did you sneak into my basement and take a picture of my panel? Lol! I inherited one quite similar when I bought this house. I started chipping away at cleaning it up, but still a lot to do yet.

 

[sberry]

It's a customer thing. I put 2 new circuits to kitchen counter tops and this is the other part of it along with adding another panel for more spaces. I finished the kitchen the other day, they were thrilled especially with the fact I didn't rip it up and require refinishing.

 

[sberry]

Seriously. If anything use an extension cord until you learn your usage patterns enough to know where an outlet makes sense. How many different places in a shop are you really going to be Welding?

There is some/a lot of wisdom in this. I got a "home" for the machines, an outlet for each one and do 99% of the work without ever moving them. There is some merit for an extra outlet if a guy is finding himself walking on the wire regular. I agree, its rare a guy has to weld in every corner of a place. Thesenew welders work with as light as 12 cords, good long ways. wouldn't hurt to put one on a 211 and leave it right there if he was moving regular. I did that in my old shop, had 70 ft of 10 cord I had on a 180. Had 2 and used mostly 1 outlet. Had another on the same 6 cable I had the dc buzzer on, really ran one at a time.

 

[nsula_country]

I daisy chained 4 and pulled a neutral also. Sized it for 50A, #6 wire. Reason for neutral was for an RV.

I have a 6-50 and a 14-50 outside under the lean-to and a 6-50 and 14-50 inside the shop. All 4 on the same 50A breaker. What I did was use deep 4 11/16 boxes for splice points to drop down to each receptacle. Used copper split bolts to splice.

CT

 

[sberry]

That resembles my main box. And it was rewired a couple of years ago. Guys that did it were idiots. Every time I have to go in it, I keep cleaning it up. Eventually it will look right.

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I shut it right off, took me all afternoon between stripping it out and mounting another panel next to it.
I could have saved myself an hour in hindsite. The whole point was to get new circuits to the kitchen counter tops. So, I added 2 new circuits and moved 6 additional to the new panel. I had to go to some tandems on the new. The old woulnt take them and as congested, some doubled. Every wire has its own circuit now. No double neutrals, added a second ground bar to the main panel, it was so congested.
It was QO. One of the benifit of HOM for main is the bars