Damaged drill press--have a question

[thebeekeeper1]

I got stupid--and lucky--last Sunday and may have bent the spindle on my drill press. It is a 1960s Delta, was in excellent condition, and now has significant wobble in the chuck. The tapered portion of the spindle is not visible enough (only about 1/8") to tell if that's where it's bent or not.

My question is, can the chuck be canted on the taper, as in is the taper steeper than the inside of the chuck so it only rides on the topmost portion and could be knocked off, inducing a wobble?

I'm very lucky to not have been injured or inflicting damage to other stuff. If anyone cares, I was drilling out two broken lug bolts from a tractor hub. The hub is tall and round, so I couldn't figure out a way to clamp it in place, so I figured it was heavy enough (probably 15#) to not be grabbed and spun by the bit. I figured wrong.

The first one went smoothly, and the second one did, until the last little bit of the largest bit. It spun at 550 RPM for a number of revolutions, then flew off and bounced around on the concrete floor. In front was . . . me, and to the immediate left was an Anderson sliding patio door. Elsewhere was a radial arm saw and other stuff. It managed to miss everything, and not even break when it landed on the concrete floor.

I wasn't so lucky with the DP chuck, however.

I tried to remove the chuck but knew better than to pound on it. A wedge wouldn't budge it, so I'm hoping someone can give me advice. Thanks!

 

[zkling]

What model of press and chuck? Can you post a picture? More than likely with that much mass the spindle is bent. Hopefully not though.

 

[thebeekeeper1]

I couldn't find a model # on it, but I can take a pic this weekend. It lives 250 miles from where I do. It's old enough it doesn't have the guard over the belt, so it had to be sold (lucky they didn't scrap it) from the local Park District once the new "Safety Guy" saw it. Luckily I had a buddy there and he gave me a heads-up on the auction.

I got it, and was thrilled at $200 because it was like new, having been used VERY little by their carpenters. Old school USA made is nice!

I'm just sick over damaging it.

Edit: I know for sure it is a Jacobs chuck--and will allow a 5/8" bit in with no problem.

 

[zkling]

Do you remember if it is a MT taper spindle (female taper) or a JT33 short stub spindle (male taper)?

 

[thebeekeeper1]

Do you remember if it is a MT taper spindle (female taper) or a JT33 short stub spindle (male taper)?

No clue--I don't even know what that means.

 

[zkling]

Post a pic when you get a chance. That is going to be the best way to give you the most accurate advice.

 

[spongerich]

When you get some pictures, head over to owwm.org. Someone will definitely be able to ID it for you. You can go to their sister site vintagemachinery.org and almost certainly find a parts diagram.

If you just bent the spindle, you'll be OK. Parts for the old Delta's show up for sale pretty regularly. If the bearings are shot, those can be a PITA to find for some models.

 

[rsanter]

I had almost the exact thing happen to me
I will about guarantee the spindle is bent
It's been 15 or so years since that happened to me but I think it cost me about $30 and was not hard to swap out

Bob

 

[Davefr]

Get a dial indicator and a magnetic base and start measuring:

1. Chuck
2. Arbor
3. Spindle

You should be able to find a spindle for it if needed.

 

[pcmeiners]

Your lucky your OK...
Ebay has drill press spindles and associated parts show up fairly often; you may need to purchase as a package with the quill. Google search produce replacements but at absurd prices. You might as well get replacement bearings also, if those are original bearings or over 15 years old they are dried out.

 

[454ragtop]

I'd try straightening it first, what do you have to lose? I've straightened drill press spindles before, they're not that hard to bend, as you found out. Set up an indicator, and try to work it back straight. If you can find a long 5/8" rod to put in the chuck, might be able to pull on it by hand, or a few careful taps with a dead blow usually will do the trick.
Good luck, Jim

 

[thebeekeeper1]

Thanks to all for the advice and insight.

I'd try straightening it first, what do you have to lose? I've straightened drill press spindles before, they're not that hard to bend, as you found out. Set up an indicator, and try to work it back straight. If you can find a long 5/8" rod to put in the chuck, might be able to pull on it by hand, or a few careful taps with a dead blow usually will do the trick.
Good luck, Jim

I'll give this ^^^ a try this weekend and come back with pictures. Thanks again!

 

[andywander]

......My question is, can the chuck be canted on the taper, as in is the taper steeper than the inside of the chuck so it only rides on the topmost portion and could be knocked off, inducing a wobble? ...

To answer your question, no the chuck can't be canted on the taper. the female taper in the chuck, and the male taper that fits it, are tapered the same, to exactly fit each other. The friction from this exact fit is what holds the chuck on, and drives it.

 

[thebeekeeper1]

To answer your question, no the chuck can't be canted on the taper. the female taper in the chuck, and the male taper that fits it, are tapered the same, to exactly fit each other. The friction from this exact fit is what holds the chuck on, and drives it.

That's what I figured--thanks.

Edit: How come it is so hard to get off then? Do they use Loc-Tite or something??

 

[spongerich]

That's what I figured--thanks.

Edit: How come it is so hard to get off then? Do they use Loc-Tite or something??

There's a significant amount of friction created by a well fit taper... a lot more than you'd probably expect.

 

[thebeekeeper1]

There's a significant amount of friction created by a well fit taper... a lot more than you'd probably expect.

You are certainly correct on that!

I'll be back tomorrow night with pics and hopefully I can get a new spindle. Man, ignorance is NOT bliss--it's a PITA and expensive to boot.

 

[OctoMan]

You might consider looking for another one to part out.

 

[thebeekeeper1]

Okay, I'm back. I took pics, but I think I've narrowed it down to a "DP 220" model. That is cast into the main housing, left side as you face the front. Google found this manual, and the pic looks just like mine: http://www.ozarkwoodworker.com/DELT...s-DP-220-Instructions-Parts-Manual_p_239.html

Anyone familiar with this model, and <hopefully> know where to find a quill/spindle? Do I need both the quill and spindle, or just the spindle? Is the chuck transferrable or does it need to be replace also?

 

[zkling]

Anyone familiar with this model, and <hopefully> know where to find a quill/spindle?

Yes, I had one for ~10 years before I upgraded to a 1940 17". The 14" DP220 is one of the most common old delta presses.

You need to figure out what part is actually damaged. Remove the chuck with a pair of chuck wedges. Then rotate the spindle by hand and see if the spindle stub is bent. The spindle on those drops out real easily by lowering the quill (use the handle like you would be drilling into a piece). Look into the front "window" and there will be a set screw with collar ontop of the quill. Loosen the setscrew and the spindle will drop out. More than likely the chuck is fine, but the spindle is bent. Let us know which and we can then proceed to the proper fix.

Here is a manual for it.

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1141/884.pdf

 

[thebeekeeper1]

Okay, I'll do that this weekend. I did loosen that set screw on the collar, but nothing happened. Is it typical to have to tap on it, or otherwise "persuade" things to let loose?

Edit: Thanks much for the manual--I printed it out.

 

[WWIIjeep]

Remove the chuck with a pair of chuck wedges.

If the chuck is seated very tightly on the spindle taper, wedges are not the best way to remove the chuck on the old Delta 14" drill presses with the DP 220 head casting. If significant pressure is required, the wedges are more likely to deform the lower collar or bend the small pin that holds the collar in place than they are to remove the chuck from the taper nose. The lower collar is relatively soft metal. It deforms easily, and if that happens, it will no longer fit into the drive tabs on the lower spindle bearing in the quill. All of the above will be obvious after the spindle is removed, so do that first, as zkling further described:

The spindle on those drops out real easily by lowering the quill (use the handle like you would be drilling into a piece). Look into the front "window" and there will be a set screw with collar ontop of the quill. Loosen the setscrew and the spindle will drop out.

Yes. ^^^ Do that first.

I did loosen that set screw on the collar, but nothing happened. Is it typical to have to tap on it, or otherwise "persuade" things to let loose?

Sometimes the set screw in the upper collar galls the spindle enough to prevent it from sliding out of the quill. Take the set screw out and you'll probably see a divot in the spindle. You can either give the spindle a light tap or two from the top with a brass or dead-blow hammer, or pry the collar up a little to clear the divot so you can clean it up. Then the spindle should drop out of the quill. "Drop" being a key word. Keep the table up near the chuck, or put a block of wood under the chuck to keep the spindle from dropping too far--like to the floor, or your foot.

Here's a photo of one that should look like yours:




If the spindle still doesn't want to move, the lower collar may have gotten deformed when the spindle bent, and it's stuck on the drive tabs of the lower spindle bearing. A little extra "incentive" on the top of the spindle with a brass or dead blow hammer should loosen it.

Here's what the spindle looks like out of the quill, and what the spindle looks like with the chuck removed:



Bent spindles are a common problem on those old drill presses. As someone already mentioned upthread, they can frequently be straightened with a few well-positioned blows of a hammer instead of replacing the spindle. That's best done in a lathe instead of on the drill press itself, and progress is checked with a dial indicator. And obviously, you don't hit the spindle directly with a steel hammer. Hit against a block of hardwood, or use a large brass hammer. Success here depends on how badly the spindle is bent.

The easiest way to get the chuck off of those spindles is to drill a hole inside the bottom of the chuck. Then you can either use a press to remove the chuck, or tap the hole for a 1/4" or 5/16" socket head capscrew and use that to push the chuck off of the spindle. Doing the aforementioned to a chuck doesn't hurt it in the least; in fact, many chucks drilled that way and countersunk so a flat head screw can be used in a tapped hole in the end of the spindle to positively lock the chuck in place. Such is particularly beneficial if the spindle is ever side-loaded, such as when using a fly-cutter or expansion bit in the drill press.

 

[Packard V8]

Agree with WWIIjeep on most all the above. It is obvious he has much experience with the Delta DP.

However, I beg to differ on this last suggestion:

Such is particularly beneficial if the spindle is ever side-loaded, such as when using a fly-cutter or expansion bit in the drill press.

No DP is designed to take side loading, especially when a chuck-held tool is used. I learned this the hard way various times and ruined more than one workpiece before I read the book. Don't try to use a flycutter, router bit, milling cutter or any cutting tool which feeds sideways in a DP chuck. It's like cheating on the wife; might get away with it once or twice but it will inevitably be a very expensive lesson.

jack vines

 

[thebeekeeper1]

Will do--again, thanks so much for the information.

 

[WWIIjeep]

Agree with WWIIjeep on most all the above. It is obvious he has much experience with the Delta DP.

However, I beg to differ on this last suggestion:



No DP is designed to take side loading, especially when a chuck-held tool is used. I learned this the hard way various times and ruined more than one workpiece before I read the book. Don't try to use a flycutter, router bit, milling cutter or any cutting tool which feeds sideways in a DP chuck. It's like cheating on the wife; might get away with it once or twice but it will inevitably be a very expensive lesson.

I agree with you in general, Jack. However, many drill press makers or sellers, including Delta and Craftsman, offered various spindle attachments for routing and shaping, and other similar operations on drill presses. It was certainly not ever the best way to do such things, but it could be done. And, when using large diameter cutters of any sort, including hole saws and Forstner bits, the work absolutely must be securely clamped to the drill press table.

One thing we probably completely agree on is that side-loading should never be done with a drill press chuck that is solely held in place by a Jacobs or Morse taper. That's where spindle-end retaining screws or Jacobs 633C collar type chucks come into play.

And no argument that milling operations are generally inappropriate on any drill press. Anybody who has ever tried to use an X-Y table on a drill press for anything but very very light work in soft materials will find that to be true in a big hurry. The exceptions are few and far between, such as heavy-duty drill presses in the 20" and larger sizes, and even then it won't work well on anything but relatively soft materials.

Just to be clear, here's the type of fly cutter I was referring to, meant for cutting large holes or disks in thin material, not the type of fly cutter used for flat surfacing on milling machines:




To beekeeper1:

If you can't straighten the spindle, or if it's too far bent to be worth trying to straighten, the replacement spindle is a Cat. No. 972 (old Delta p/n) or 402-02-385-5005 (modern p/n). Delta kept it in stock for decades after the drill press had been discontinued, but it's no longer available from them. Even if they still offered it, their last price for it was not for the meek.

There are plenty of them available in the used or take-off part market, on eBay or on the owwm.org buying and selling forum, and NOS ones even pop up once in a while.

Caveat emptor on used ones though. Since those spindles are susceptible to bending, used ones are often bent a little, or a lot, and sellers don't always divulge that information, or don't test beforehand, so you might still have to practice or develop your straightening skills a little.

Here's one with the lower collar removed that we decided was bent beyond salvage, so we trued-up a "less bent" take-off in its place. The bend is obvious in the photo:

 

[thebeekeeper1]

Is that the taper in the photo? I've not seen one, so I'm surprised it's that slight.

Edit: The only good news is the wobble is fairly slight, so I may be able to straighten it.

 

[WWIIjeep]

Is that the taper in the photo? I've not seen one, so I'm surprised it's that slight.

Yes. It's called a No. 33 Jacobs taper (33JT).

OEM spec. for the 33JT is 1.000" long, .62401" at the largest point and .56051" at the smallest point.

 

[thebeekeeper1]

As expected the spindle came right out when I followed the above instructions, so thanks. I do not have a lathe or dial indicator, so would a local machine shop be my best bet? Does anyone here on the forum hire out for this kind of thing? I'd rather pay a fellow site member than a stranger, even if local. Anyone?

Oh, it appears to be bent very slightly just above the top of the chuck. I determined this by rolling it on the edge of a table. The tip of the chuck, full closed, waves just a tiny bit when rolled. I'm optimistic it can be straightened.

 

[zkling]

Really you need to get the chuck off of the spindle to assess the damage. The outside of the chuck and even the jaws is not a reference surface. Either put something in the chuck like a short piece of ground rod or better yet remove the chuck and look at the taper.

Do you have an arbor press or even a hydraulic press? Possibly a BFH? Straightening a spindle is not hard, but I would recommend that you find or make a supporting collar to prevent from marring the shaft.

 

[thebeekeeper1]

Oh man, only a BFH. That's why I'd rather hire it done, as I'm not too hip on the "beat on it and give 'er a try" method.