Dare I fix a gas valve?

[LS6 Tommy]

I f the gas co red tagged you they more than likely will not remove the tag if the valve was "repaired", especially by the homeowner. Gas valves are not serviceable items. They are replaced.

If you did the gas line, I mean no disrespect, but it's a mess. You shouldn't mix fitting materials like that. It should all be one type of pipe. I know it's been mentioned that it's not allowable, (it's not a UPC violation) but even if it was, that copper line has to go. Without a vibration loop or two it can work harden from vibration and end up leaking.

Most residential HVAC companies I know won't touch a genset...

Tommy

 

[reader2580]

If I need to have the plumbing from the meter to the generator replaced I will probably just sell the generator.

It will likely cost over $800 to have someone replace the entire gas line. $150 trip charge, $200 to $300 in labor, $60 for permit and $250 to $300 for parts (gas valve, regulator rebuild, pipe and fittings). Most plumbers and HVAC companies would probably question why I would want galvanized pipe instead of copper because of all the labor to install.

 

[mm08822]

2psi gas table I found shows 1/2" tubing good for 40 equivalent feet for a 300 cfh load. OP is at 10 ft and 200 cfh so it is sized properly.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Galvanized is not against code for natural gas, but it is not recommend for compressed gases. If it were at my house it would have been black pipe right from the meter, a black pipe drip leg and a regular natural gas corrugated flex line in to the genny. Done.

Tommy

 

[derkperk]

Pm sent


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[mm08822]

Copper tubing is allowed depending upon gas supplier.
If his gas co. was already out to the job and went thru the generator sniffing for leaks, they obviously know cu tubing is present.
If his region is using cu tubing at installs all over, then its got to be ok.

A vibration loop or more typically, a hose is used as vibration isolation.

If you extend the exterior black pipe further to the right, you could make enough slack for a cu vib loop.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Copper tubing is allowed depending upon gas supplier.

X2. It must be K, L or ACR and is only allowable if the natural gas contains les than average of 0.3 grains of hydrogen sulfide per 100 standard cubic feet of gas.

Tommy

 

[mm08822]

Galvanized is not against code for natural gas, but it is not recommend for compressed gases. If it were at my house it would have been black pipe right from the meter, a black pipe drip leg and a regular natural gas corrugated flex line in to the genny. Done.

Tommy

Agreed, that's a typical install in nj.

It would also not be at 2 psi. I haven't seen ng supplied above 7" h2o in nj for residential service. Different doesnt make it wrong!

 

[mm08822]

X2. It must be K, L or ACR and is only allowable if the natural gas contains les than average of 0.3 grains of hydrogen sulfide per 100 standard cubic feet of gas.

Tommy

That's exactly what my AGA gas code book states.

 

[derkperk]

Agreed, that's a typical install in nj.



It would also not be at 2 psi. I haven't seen ng supplied above 7" h2o in nj for residential service. Different doesnt make it wrong!

2# gas is very very common in residential here in MN.


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[mm08822]

I've had a few calls over the years where the leak was the copper flex or piping...the additive that provides the smell deteriorates copper...and I've not once seen a Y installed on natural gas either, it has a drip leg.

Also - It's code here that gas pipe exposed to weather must be galvanized or coated, black iron is not allowed.

Painting of black pipe is permitted by AGA code, but locally it can modified.
Biggest issue I see with black pipe is it gets painted at time of install and then forgotten.

 

[reader2580]

Great way to start my weekend. When the sun comes out tomorrow I will remove all the electrical and gas to the generator so I can sell the generator. (Yes, I will mention the gas valve needs replacement.)

When I have the money in a couple years I will buy a new Kohler generator and have the plumbing done properly. I have NEVER seen a house locally with galvanized pipe for gas, but I guess that is the right way to do it.

It seems like in the long run it might have been cheaper to just have a new generator installed. By the time I buy a new generator and have gas run to it I will have spent around $7,000. I probably could have had a pro install a new generator for $8,000 to $8,500.

 

[mm08822]

So you would rather put in 8x the work to get rid of it and loose all of your previous time and money installing it and forego having backup.

Spend half a day and fix it. You have all the info needed to do so and so what if it takes longer to get it done b/c you need another part or whatever. And you will learn by doing.

I don't think you sell your car when its due for an oil change.........

 

[reader2580]

An oil change doesn't cost 20% of buying a new car. How that I know that after spending $800 to have it replumbed that the engine or generator head won't fail the next day? I could spend all that money and still have a gas leak somewhere in the unit.

I have zero confidence in being able to measure and install galvanized pipe and not have leaks. I would probably buy all my pipe and fittings at a local supply house because they are USA made, but they won't cut or thread pipe. I will plumb water all day long because I can see dripping water and it won't kill me.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Agreed, that's a typical install in nj.

It would also not be at 2 psi. I haven't seen ng supplied above 7" h2o in nj for residential service. Different doesnt make it wrong!

PSE&G carries 2-5 Psig in their mains. Their standard supply is 5.5" WC at the outlet of their regulators, but they will adjust from 4-7". Anything above that is "HTNP" (Higher Than Normal Pressure) and requires a different application to be submitted to get an "MP" (Medium Pressure) regulator for residential customers up to 1 Psig and commercial/ industrial customers for 1 to 5 Psig maximum. No copper can be used over 1 Psig.

Tommy

 

[reader2580]

I found the application for new residential gas service for Xcel Energy. The form asks if you want 7 inch or 2 lb so both are available.

I requested gas service be installed in September 2014. I don't recall being asked about 7 inch versus 2 lb. I obviously got 2 lb based on the tag on the meter. The house had electric heat and water heater when I bought the house. I had natural gas installed since it was available at the street.

 

[Dr Stan]

Galvanized is not against code for natural gas, but it is not recommend for compressed gases. If it were at my house it would have been black pipe right from the meter, a black pipe drip leg and a regular natural gas corrugated flex line in to the genny. Done.

Tommy

Ditto. When I was taught and later when I taught fluid power using galvanized pipe in a pressurized gas system was a big NO-NO. The coating will deteriorate and flake off over time and plug up items such as valves & regulators. There are other easier and appropriate piping for gasses other than black iron but, that's all I ever use. However I have a set of manual pipe dies, a lathe to hold it in place and a horizontal band saw or pipe cutter to cut it to length.

If the pipe is short enough its easy to cut the taper on the end before threading making the threads much better than just running the die over the pipe. And one more thing, do not attempt to power thread by turning on the lathe that's simply asking for trouble & injuries.

 

[reader2580]

valves & regulators. There are other easier and appropriate piping for gasses other than black iron but, that's all I ever use.

So what is easier and more appropriate than black pipe for gas?

 

[mm08822]

I found the application for new residential gas service for Xcel Energy. The form asks if you want 7 inch or 2 lb so both are available.

I requested gas service be installed in September 2014. I don't recall being asked about 7 inch versus 2 lb. I obviously got 2 lb based on the tag on the meter. The house had electric heat and water heater when I bought the house. I had natural gas installed since it was available at the street.

It really doesnt matter which you picked or were given. Each has tradeoffs.

Lower pressure means larger diameter pipes are required and no additional regulator.
Higher pressure means smaller diameter lines can be used and a regulator at each point of use.

What you have is fine.

 

[reader2580]

The feed from my gas meter to the new regulator is 1/2" copper which is big enough because of 2 PSI gas service. Can I use 1/2" pipe from the new regulator to the gas valve inside the generator, or do I need 3/4"? The silly thing is the gas valve only has a 1/2" connection so I would need to adapt from 3/4" to 1/2" anyhow.

 

[mm08822]

The feed from my gas meter to the new regulator is 1/2" copper which is big enough because of 2 PSI gas service. Can I use 1/2" pipe from the new regulator to the gas valve inside the generator, or do I need 3/4"? The silly thing is the gas valve only has a 1/2" connection so I would need to adapt from 3/4" to 1/2" anyhow.

I would size everything to the largest port in the generator. I think the internal regulator was 3/4", so if you get a 3/4" gas valve, you will eliminate reducer bushings and additional threaded connections for future leak potential. Incremental cost should be minimal.

Once you reduce to the 7" h2o pressure, the 2 psi pipe sizing is irrelevant.

Adequate fuel flow is paramount for generator speed recovery when inrush transient loads appear.

 

[reader2580]

I would size everything to the largest port in the generator. I think the internal regulator was 3/4", so if you get a 3/4" gas valve, you will eliminate reducer bushings and additional threaded connections for future leak potential. Incremental cost should be minimal.

Once you reduce to the 7" h2o pressure, the 2 psi pipe sizing is irrelevant.

Adequate fuel flow is paramount for generator speed recovery when inrush transient loads appear.

The current factory installed gas valve is 1/2" and I am 99% sure the inlet to the generator's own regulator is also 1/2".

The only reason I was thinking of 1/2" pipe is to avoid the need to use a close ****** and adapter at the gas valve like I have now. I have no issues running 3/4" from the gas valve to the external regulator.

 

[mm08822]

The current factory installed gas valve is 1/2" and I am 99% sure the inlet to the generator's own regulator is also 1/2".

The only reason I was thinking of 1/2" pipe is to avoid the need to use a close ****** and adapter at the gas valve like I have now. I have no issues running 3/4" from the gas valve to the external regulator.

It looks like a 3/4" FPT at the inlet of the internal regulator in your pic.

Post the full part # of the internal regulator - looks like Garretson, model KN (?)

 

[slackdaddy1]

I can tell you from experience, the LAST person you want to call if you smell a MINOR gas leak on your property is the GAS Company.

My cleaning lady smelled gas at a vacant property she was cleaning (just a faint wiff), she called the gas company, who called the electric company.
They all showed up, turned the gas off at the street, cut the power at the pole.

It was the old stove pilot light, replaced the stove with proper gas appliance permit.
Called to have gas turned on, had to hire plumber to pressure test and CERTIFY there are no leaks in the entire house. Do you know how much it cost for a licensed person to put their name on a piece of paper saying the entire house is safe? he made us pay for some upgrades.

Then the power company would not turn the electric on until the County issued a "Cut card". The county will not issue a cut card until an electrician pulls a permit and has the county inspect.
They made us install a new main panel (nothing wrong with the old one) AND since we did a heavy up, we had to install Hardwired smoke/CO detectors throughout the house, A plaster house.

$4800.00 dollars later.

Nick

I was smelling gas near the generator on a day with no wind. The generator is five feet from the meter so I called the gas company to see if the meter was leaking and they found leak at the carb in the generator.

I don't know how natural gas could even be getting to the carb if the gas valve is not leaking. Maybe the gas valve is easy to replace, but not being a plumber I have no idea how to take the pipes apart. I'll have to call the HVAC company.

 

[slackdaddy1]

You are missing the flex line,, the generator will eventually loosen this apart.
You should have a flex line from the gen, and the hard line should be MOUNTED on a pedestal of some sort.

Your union is the brass flare nut that connects the copper tubing to the galvanized T. You'll have to break the pipe back to the gas valve from there.

I've never seen a Y strainer on a gas line...

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[reader2580]

It looks like a 3/4" FPT at the inlet of the internal regulator in your pic.

Post the full part # of the internal regulator - looks like Garretson, model KN (?)

I was wrong. It is a 3/4" opening on the regulator so it would make sense to use 3/4" pipe and also to replace the gas valve with a 3/4" one. I thought there is just a close ****** between regulator and valve, but there is an adapter in there too.

It is a Garretson 039-128. The 128 seems to be impossible to find, but the 039-122 is very common. Photo attached.

I have no idea how to get the photo rotated as it shows up the right direction on my PC.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If I need to have the plumbing from the meter to the generator replaced I will probably just sell the generator.

It will likely cost over $800 to have someone replace the entire gas line. $150 trip charge, $200 to $300 in labor, $60 for permit and $250 to $300 for parts (gas valve, regulator rebuild, pipe and fittings). Most plumbers and HVAC companies would probably question why I would want galvanized pipe instead of copper because of all the labor to install.

Why?

DO it yourself and save considerable $$$

Ive done some gas lines before and they really arent that hard.

And home depot can thread the pipe for you if needed...

Great way to start my weekend. When the sun comes out tomorrow I will remove all the electrical and gas to the generator so I can sell the generator. (Yes, I will mention the gas valve needs replacement.)

When I have the money in a couple years I will buy a new Kohler generator and have the plumbing done properly. I have NEVER seen a house locally with galvanized pipe for gas, but I guess that is the right way to do it.

It seems like in the long run it might have been cheaper to just have a new generator installed. By the time I buy a new generator and have gas run to it I will have spent around $7,000. I probably could have had a pro install a new generator for $8,000 to $8,500.

Thats a very irrational and emotional reaction to a minor gas plumbing project...

So you would rather put in 8x the work to get rid of it and loose all of your previous time and money installing it and forego having backup.

Spend half a day and fix it. You have all the info needed to do so and so what if it takes longer to get it done b/c you need another part or whatever. And you will learn by doing.

I don't think you sell your car when its due for an oil change.........

Sometimes people really dont think about what theyre saying...

An oil change doesn't cost 20% of buying a new car. How that I know that after spending $800 to have it replumbed that the engine or generator head won't fail the next day? I could spend all that money and still have a gas leak somewhere in the unit.

I have zero confidence in being able to measure and install galvanized pipe and not have leaks. I would probably buy all my pipe and fittings at a local supply house because they are USA made, but they won't cut or thread pipe. I will plumb water all day long because I can see dripping water and it won't kill me.

ok what about things like transmission flushes, water pumps timing belts valve cover gaskets etc?

Do u have a home depot near you?

They cut and thread pipe..

I can tell you from experience, the LAST person you want to call if you smell a MINOR gas leak on your property is the GAS Company.

My cleaning lady smelled gas at a vacant property she was cleaning (just a faint wiff), she called the gas company, who called the electric company.
They all showed up, turned the gas off at the street, cut the power at the pole.

It was the old stove pilot light, replaced the stove with proper gas appliance permit.
Called to have gas turned on, had to hire plumber to pressure test and CERTIFY there are no leaks in the entire house. Do you know how much it cost for a licensed person to put their name on a piece of paper saying the entire house is safe? he made us pay for some upgrades.

Then the power company would not turn the electric on until the County issued a "Cut card". The county will not issue a cut card until an electrician pulls a permit and has the county inspect.
They made us install a new main panel (nothing wrong with the old one) AND since we did a heavy up, we had to install Hardwired smoke/CO detectors throughout the house, A plaster house.

$4800.00 dollars later.

Nick

Maybe in your area. Not the case in Cali. SOunds like a fluke and an extreme case of government overreach...

Ive been on service calls, smelled gas, waited for the gas company, they found the leak, took care of it or shut off the meter and everyone went on their merry way. No red tags, no disconnected electrical service, no permits or fees owed to the county...

 

[reader2580]

It has been a year now and I have not touched my standby generator in that time. I have pretty much given up on finding pipe fittings not made in China. I am probably going to just sell and let the buyer know it needs a new gas valve.

There are manufacturers that make fittings in the USA, but try to actually buy them. The places that sell them charge $20 to $30 for a fitting that costs $5 at HD.

 

[yeldogt]

It has been a year now and I have not touched my standby generator in that time. I have pretty much given up on finding pipe fittings not made in China. I am probably going to just sell and let the buyer know it needs a new gas valve.

There are manufacturers that make fittings in the USA, but try to actually buy them. The places that sell them charge $20 to $30 for a fitting that costs $5 at HD.

So it's been off all this time? You should be able to go to a supply house and get quality fittings.sometimes all those fitting come apart and the pipe looks fine -- goes back together w/o issue. I took apart my pool heater last year and the old pipe was clean inside as was the threads .... better stuff vs what I could get today. Use a professional type pipe dope from the supple house.

 

[reader2580]

So it's been off all this time? You should be able to go to a supply house and get quality fittings.sometimes all those fitting come apart and the pipe looks fine -- goes back together w/o issue. I took apart my pool heater last year and the old pipe was clean inside as was the threads .... better stuff vs what I could get today. Use a professional type pipe dope from the supple house.

The local plumbing supply only carries China junk. I don’t have a problem buying items from China if I can’t get a American made item, but every Chinese pipe fitting I ever used has just caused me problems getting them to not leak.

The old pipe and fittings are rusty beyond belief so the need replacement.

 

[Jackfre]

I know this is a DIY crowd here and there are many who can do all kinds of amazing projects successfully. In my years as a contractor or manuf rep I figure I have sold in the neighborhood of 400,000 pieces of gas equipment. As the rep I also did troubleshooting (the rep only sees disasters) and training and worked with all the propane cos and gas utilities in the Northeast. I have never seen a gas valve repaired by anyone in the business. There is just no upside to doing so. Go ahead and see if you can get it to work. Then throw it away.

 

[yeldogt]

The local plumbing supply only carries China junk. I don’t have a problem buying items from China if I can’t get a American made item, but every Chinese pipe fitting I ever used has just caused me problems getting them to not leak.

The old pipe and fittings are rusty beyond belief so the need replacement.

My pool heater looked about the same -- rusty pipe. When I took it all apart all the threads were fine -- the pipe was only surface rust. That old pipe it tough -- those fitting look fine?

I cleaned it all up and put it back together -- hit it with a spray can.

you can order USA made stuff online .. and it's really not that expensive.

 

[reader2580]

I know this is a DIY crowd here and there are many who can do all kinds of amazing projects successfully. In my years as a contractor or manuf rep I figure I have sold in the neighborhood of 400,000 pieces of gas equipment. As the rep I also did troubleshooting (the rep only sees disasters) and training and worked with all the propane cos and gas utilities in the Northeast. I have never seen a gas valve repaired by anyone in the business. There is just no upside to doing so. Go ahead and see if you can get it to work. Then throw it away.

I bought a new valve long ago, but I have yet to install it. I took the original valve apart and it was corroded internally.

This thread long ago moved from the gas valve onto how to replace the piping going into the generator.

 

[walrus]

It has been a year now and I have not touched my standby generator in that time. I have pretty much given up on finding pipe fittings not made in China. I am probably going to just sell and let the buyer know it needs a new gas valve.

There are manufacturers that make fittings in the USA, but try to actually buy them. The places that sell them charge $20 to $30 for a fitting that costs $5 at HD.

I buy ward fittings made in USA. More than HD, probably but when I put an air test on piping it holds.

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[reader2580]

I buy ward fittings made in USA. More than HD, probably but when I put an air test on piping it holds.

Ward has both domestic and import. I have no issue spending two or three times as HD, but five to ten times as much stretches my limit.

 

[walrus]

Ward has both domestic and import. I have no issue spending two or three times as HD, but five to ten times as much stretches my limit.

Fittings have gone up a lot. Trouble is HD pipe fittings are junk, not worth using if they are given to you. Seen to many leaks.

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[brewchief]

I haven't seen a usa made pipe fitting in years, none of the 5-6 wholesalers that we deal with carry them, if put together correctly most of the import stuff is fine.

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[nh_yota]

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