Detached shop power overhead or underground question

[Wayne John]

I had a 2500 sqft shop built. My question pertains to cost and if it is cheaper to go overhead or underground. I live out in the country on 9 acres. My shop is 150ft from the road power lines and same distance from the transformer. If a ditch was dug it would be 300 ft from the panel on the house to the panel on the shop. The panel on the house is rated for a 200amp service and the wire from the transformer is the CIC and the transformer is about 100 yards from the house panel. I got an electrical quote for power to the garage plus lights, big ceiling fan, outlets etc for $20,000. That quote involves upgrading the house panel to a 400 amp panel due to me putting a 4 post car lift in the garage plus ditching the 300 ft from the house panel to shop panel. In addition I have to upgrade the CIC wire from the transformer to the house panel to handle the 400amp panel. And that would involve getting an engineering design done from the power company ditching etc. Would it be cheaper to just have the power company install a pole next to the shop and run a power line 150 yards to that pole from the road power line. My electrician said that I would still need to trench a power line from the transformer to the shop panel and that I would have two meters. I don’t know the process and I may be way off center so I appreciate any help and assistance. Thanks W.

 

[JessieAMorris]

Have you (or your electrician) done a load calc? The 4 post lift is going to be a very periodic load. I’m not sure that you need the 400A upgrade unless you’re planning on running a fair bit of heavy machinery all at the same time or you are already nearly at capacity on your 200A service.

 

[Wayne John]

The electrician did a load test and said with the lift, air compressor, fan, RV, it would need the 400amp panel. It wouldn’t be constant on all night. but I do spend a lot of time in there all and the RV would be plugged in and constantly on. We do pop a lot of breakers on the house panel and our pool pump goes off alot. All things considered would it cost effective to go underground or overhead due to the distance? Thanks. W

 

[acer66]

Overhead will most likely always come out on top over buried regarding costs.

For me I would try to bury cables because I do not like overhead cables on my property.

Regarding load calculation, how many people will work in the shop simultaneously?

 

[Wayne John]

Probably be two. Our home is a 4 bed 5 bath with 5 people. We pop a lot of breakers in the house and the electrician said that our panel surprisingly doesn’t have a lot of breakers on it. We are having to reset the pool pump breaker several times a week.

 

[PCustoms]

Fire the electrician, no way should adding a shop require a 200a additional load.


Resetting breakers in the house repeatedly is likely another issue. If the electrician can't figure that out even more reason to fire them.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

The electrician did a load test and said with the lift, air compressor, fan, RV, it would need the 400amp panel. It wouldn’t be constant on all night. but I do spend a lot of time in there all and the RV would be plugged in and constantly on. We do pop a lot of breakers on the house panel and our pool pump goes off alot. All things considered would it cost effective to go underground or overhead due to the distance? Thanks. W

Hire another QUALIFIED electrician!…….. Why?
1) A lift requires a 20 amp circuit.
2) Overhead is less expensive to run.
3) A good electrician knows how to do "quick" budget numbers.

BTW! Welcome to the GJ!

 

[Rusted Nut]

Have your power company provide their costs, then you can decide. With overhead you may have easements issues, etc…

 

[PCustoms]

Hire another QUALIFIED electrician!…….. Why?
1) A lift requires a 20 amp circuit.
2) Overhead is less expensive to run.
3) A good electrician knows how to do "quick" budget numbers.

BTW! Welcome to the GJ!

FYI to @Wayne John , I had the power company quote me a pole last year, $2500. Then you'd have a second meter and minimum monthly bill, assuming they'd even do this for residential service.

Where is the current house power feed from, an overhead or underground transformer?

150' underground isn't far...

 

[acer66]

Probably be two. Our home is a 4 bed 5 bath with 5 people. We pop a lot of breakers in the house and the electrician said that our panel surprisingly doesn’t have a lot of breakers on it. We are having to reset the pool pump breaker several times a week.

Popping breakers might be more a wiring problem like to big of a load on a breaker with not a lot of breakers in the panel than not having enough power with a 200A panel.

 

[Wayne John]

If I did stay with the existing 200 amp panel, would it still be cost effective go overhead, and is it correct that I would still need to ditch a line from the transformer to the shop Plus another meter? I appreciate all the feedback. Thanks.

 

[Wayne John]

FYI to @Wayne John , I had the power company quote me a pole last year, $2500.

Where is the current house power feed from, an overhead or underground transformer?

The transformer is about 150 yards from the road power lines and about 100 yards from the house panel.

 

[Wayne John]

The transformer is about 150 yards from the road power lines and about 100 yards from the house panel.

Correction that should be feet not yards.

 

[billconner]

Popping breakers in the panel other than main seems like a different problem. (Acer beat me to it)

I think you'll regret the additional monthly cost of 2 services. I also don't like overhead so I would definitely feed from main and bury it. YMMV

I think upgrading panel is a separate question I don't know enough about.

 

[PCustoms]

The transformer is about 150 yards from the road power lines and about 100 yards from the house panel.

Is the transformer on a pole, or on the ground?

 

[Wayne John]

FYI to @Wayne John , I had the power company quote me a pole last year, $2500. Then you'd have a second meter and minimum monthly bill, assuming they'd even do this for residential service.

Where is the current house power feed from, an overhead or underground transformer?

150' underground isn't far...

If I went from that transformer to the garage panel it would be at least 250 ft

 

[PCustoms]

No offense, buy you're all over the place between feet, yards and changing numbers.

Sketch an overhead of your property and pay attention to the basic questions here and you should get some solid help.

 

[Wayne John]

If I went from that transformer to the garage panel it would be at least 250 ft

And that thats the transformer box sitting in my field. Would it or can I just run a line from that transformer to my shop panel as the power line and put on another meter?

 

[Wayne John]

No offense, buy you're all over the place between feet, yards and changing numbers.

Sketch an overhead of your property and pay attention to the basic questions here and you should get some solid help.

I apologize I’m on a work trip sitting here in Ft Cavazos Texas in a hotel. I retired last year at 22 years army (pilot, MI). I’ll sketch up a diagram. Thank W.

 

[Wayne John]

Is the transformer on a pole, or on the ground?

My house transformer is on the ground. Thanks W.

 

[Wayne John]

I apologize I’m on a work trip sitting here in Ft Cavazos Texas in a hotel. I retired last year at 22 years army (pilot, MI). I’ll sketch up a diagram. Thank W.

I apologize I’m on a work trip sitting here in Ft Cavazos Texas in a hotel. I retired last year at 22 years army (pilot, MI). I’ll sketch up a diagram. Thank W.

I attached a sketch it’s all estimated distances, and I also forgot to add my well on there. The dashed lines are the proposed ditching distances from the transformer to shop panel, road power lines to shop if a pole was used, and the power line from house panel to shop panel.Thanks W.

 

[Wayne John]

Hire another QUALIFIED electrician!…….. Why?
1) A lift requires a 20 amp circuit.
2) Overhead is less expensive to run.
3) A good electrician knows how to do "quick" budget numbers.

BTW! Welcome to the GJ!

Thank You. W.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

Here is what I suggest…….
Install a 400 AMP pedestal mount one meter board and branch off underground to the new building and the house. Clean install without overhead wires and you can bury the UG distribution wire without conduit.
This would be need to be approved by the utility company so call them and talk to a layout tech.

 

[Wayne John]

Here is what I suggest…….
Install a 400 AMP pedestal mount one meter board and branch off underground to the new building and the house. Clean install without overhead wires and you can bury the UG distribution wire without conduit.
This would be need to be approved by the utility company so call them and talk to a layout tech.

Thanks for the help. Can you please explain what the pedestal mount one meter board branch is etc? Thanks.

 

[PCustoms]

Here is what I suggest…….
Install a 400 AMP pedestal mount one meter board and branch off underground to the new building and the house. Clean install without overhead wires and you can bury the UG distribution wire without conduit.
This would be need to be approved by the utility company so call them and talk to a layout tech.

I'm not sure this is possible unless the OP runs a new 4 wire feed to the house.if it's possible, it is the best way


OP, call the power company and discuss service options with them.

 

[Wayne John]

I'm not sure this is possible unless the OP runs a new 4 wire feed to the house.if it's possible, it is the best way


OP, call the power company and discuss service options with them.

Thanks, I plan on having a discussion with the power company on Monday. W.

 

[PCustoms]

Thanks, I plan on having a discussion with the power company on Monday. W.

What state and county is the shop in?

The location determines what electrical code has been adopted, and that sets some options

 

[Wayne John]

What state and county is the shop in?

The location determines what electrical code has been adopted, and that sets some options

Arizona, Cochise county

 

[sparky 1971]

The electrician did a load test and said with the lift, air compressor, fan, RV, it would need the 400amp panel.

He's full of **** unless you have electric heat. Keep the 200 amp service at the house and run a 100 amp feeder to the shop.

It wouldn’t be constant on all night. but I do spend a lot of time in there all and the RV would be plugged in and constantly on. We do pop a lot of breakers on the house panel and our pool pump goes off alot

A 400 amp service won't do anything to help individual circuits tripping breakers.

All things considered would it cost effective to go underground or overhead due to the distance? Thanks. W

Underground is always better, 300 feet is nothing for someone with a good trencher.

 

[Wayne John]

I’ll bring that up to the electrician. Thanks Greg.

 

[cannuck]

I also think you need another sparky with a lot more experience and common sense. Unless your house has a HUGE load (i.e. heating/.cooling), 200A panel is quite large for domestic consumption. I have a 100A service to my house in town and feed 70 off to the garage (with a LOT of equipment) and nothing runs out of capacity summer or winter.. I put a 200A panel in when I built the shop and set up for a mast to run separate overhead, but never turned out to be needed.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

In my area a meter feeding just a shop will cost extra and charges will be at a higher rate.
To address your current situation or tripping breakers. Check the wiring and requirements on those circuits. Maybe look at replacing the house panel or adding a sub panel in the house and dividing the existing circuits.

I'd run 90 A service underground to the shop.

 

[Wayne John]

I also think you need another sparky with a lot more experience and common sense. Unless your house has a HUGE load (i.e. heating/.cooling), 200A panel is quite large for domestic consumption. I have a 100A service to my house in town and feed 70 off to the garage (with a LOT of equipment) and nothing runs out of capacity summer or winter.. I put a 200A panel in when I built the shop and set up for a mast to run separate overhead, but never turned out to be needed.

Thanks for the advice, I will bring up all the suggestion. My house loads are the central Air and it runs constant here in Az. The pool pump run all year around. We have our own well out here but that’s kicks on and off to build up pressure but it’s not constant. I have to clarify why he suggested a 400amp panel upgrade on the house as the car lift mentioned by is a 11 operating Amp 3 HP Motor, plus the air compressor which is needEd to be used to lower it. It’s a single stage compressor and I plan on getting a dual stage compresso.

 

[PCustoms]

At least 2 of us have said it, and I'll say it again.

If your electrician thinks you need a 400amp panel (200a upgrade) to run a 3hp motor on a hydraulic lift, FIRE HIM IMMEDIATELY.

If this was my house I would:

1. Trench and run 90-100A from the house panel. This would be 4 wire feed. Since you don't get frost (ground movement) I'd probably do direct bury Mobile home feeder
2. See if I could put a meter/Main at the transformer. Connect to current house feed, add new trench to shop and run 100A 4-wiee feed. I would rate this as option #1, but I'm pretty sure you CANT re-use the current feed to your house, so this would add a lot of expense.

 

[Wayne John]

At least 2 of us have said it, and I'll say it again.

If your electrician thinks you need a 400amp panel (200a upgrade) to run a 3hp motor on a hydraulic lift, FIRE HIM IMMEDIATELY.

If this was my house I would:

1. Trench and run 90-100A from the house panel. This would be 4 wire feed. Since you don't get frost (ground movement) I'd probably do direct bury Mobile home feeder
2. See if I could put a meter/Main at the transformer. Connect to current house feed, add new trench to shop and run 100A 4-wiee feed. I would rate this as option #1, but I'm pretty sure you CANT re-use the current feed to your house, so this would add a lot of expense.

I will definitely clarify with him on the reasons for the 400 amp panel. He is only one bid that I got and have two more that I’m working on. I really appreciate all the help and will definitely bring it all up with the electricians. Thanks W.

 

[PCustoms]

I will definitely clarify with him on the reasons for the 400 amp panel. He is only one bid that I got and have two more that I’m working on. I really appreciate all the help and will definitely bring it all up with the electricians. Thanks W.

I wouldn't give him the opportunity to explain a $20k quote bloated with excess.

File it in the round bin and move on

 

[JohnX14]

He's full of **** unless you have electric heat. Keep the 200 amp service at the house and run a 100 amp feeder to the shop.

A 400 amp service won't do anything to help individual circuits tripping breakers.

Underground is always better, 300 feet is nothing for someone with a good trencher.

Agreed on all counts. I'm an electrical contractor, and you've stated exactly what I was going to write as I was reading.

 

[nadogail]

IMHO, your electrician is looking at you as “Easy Money”

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Im late to the party but I will just pile on to the previous comments to drive it home

I doubt your electrician did a real load calc and there is no way you need to upgrade to 400a service for the added load of a vehicle lift.

branch breakers tripping at your house panel has absolutely nothing to do with overloading your main service (200a). that is an individual circuit being overloaded.

running a branch feeder from your house service will always be cheaper in the long run because you wont have a separate meter fee (most PoCos charge this) and possibly higher rates for the second service.

I agree with the others. fire this electrician and find someone else that isnt looking to drain your wallet.

 

[Wayne John]

Im late to the party but I will just pile on to the previous comments to drive it home

I doubt your electrician did a real load calc and there is no way you need to upgrade to 400a service for the added load of a vehicle lift.

branch breakers tripping at your house panel has absolutely nothing to do with overloading your main service (200a). that is an individual circuit being overloaded.

running a branch feeder from your house service will always be cheaper in the long run because you wont have a separate meter fee (most PoCos charge this) and possibly higher rates for the second service.

I agree with the others. fire this electrician and find someone else that isnt looking to drain your wallet.

Thanks. I have another electrician coming over for bid and now I’m better informed on what to ask and look for and will ask all the questions from your guys recommendation. Appreciate it thanks. W.