Diagnostic Scanner Questions

[rnpatrick]

I have the simple OBD-II code readers that can read codes and clear a CEL but am beginning to think I need something more. I need a tool that can read values as the vehicle is operated, similar to the way the dealer tools can. And I would also like it to be able to access ALL the subsystems (ABS, transmission, etc.) and not just the engine.

I have a Ford with an intermittent ABS issues and the diagnostic procedure says to read various values while driving the vehicle.

I have a Jeep with an intermittent misfire condition that would also be easier to diagnose if I could read values while driving.

Is there a decent alternative to the dealer diagnostic scan tools that will cover Ford, Audi, Chrysler and Jeep (among others)? The main problem I feel like I have is that I don't know what I don't know about these things. For example, when I bought my first cheap code reader, I did not know that not every reader can read ABS codes so I had to buy a second reader to pull ABS codes. Now I find out that I need to read stuff in real time which my reader does not do. Having to re-buy a $50 code reader ticks me off but does not break the bank. Spending $1000 on a diagnostic scanner and THEN finding out that it won't do something I thought it would do is a different story.

Any suggestions or pointers to sites I can use to get smarter on these things appreciated. I do all my own maintenance and feel like I am ready to invest some money in one of these things but don't want to make an expensive mistake.

Sorry if this has already been asked before - seems like something that should have been asked already but the search terms must be too generic - was getting 1000's of threads.

 

[signcrafter]

At the 1000 dollar price range you are looking at something like the autel ds708. I'm sure there are some other ones out there also in that price range, like the laptop based autoenginuity if you want to go the laptop route. I have the autel 708 and it has been a decent scanner for me. It gets into most of what I need. But with any aftermarket scanner that does all vehicle makes(non OEM scanner) it will have limitations.

 

[colin39]

I have the solas pro, ive had it since 2006 and its been great its only updated to 2010 but it gets me out of most shite

 

[toddoky]

If you are going to own your Ford or any other late model Fords for a while, then your best bet would be to invest in a Ford IDS/ VCMll laptop set-up to give you total diagnostic/ bi-directional capabilities on the vehicle.

 

[rnpatrick]

At the 1000 dollar price range you are looking at something like the autel ds708. I'm sure there are some other ones out there also in that price range, like the laptop based autoenginuity if you want to go the laptop route. I have the autel 708 and it has been a decent scanner for me. It gets into most of what I need. But with any aftermarket scanner that does all vehicle makes(non OEM scanner) it will have limitations.

Thanks Signcrafter - it is exactly these (unknown) limitations that make me leery of pulling the trigger on something. Good to know they exist.

 

[rnpatrick]

If you are going to own your Ford or any other late model Fords for a while, then your best bet would be to invest in a Ford IDS/ VCMll laptop set-up to give you total diagnostic/ bi-directional capabilities on the vehicle.

Thanks for the pointer - I will check this out. I just did a quick search and it looks reasonably priced (based on a very quick price check. I did not know about this - much appreciated.

 

[bwitt]

Snap-On Solus Pro here. Great scanner w/ bi-directional controls. Only get a Modus if you need the scope capability. I also have a Vantage Pro which is the scope and component tester in one. Drawbacks are they need keys for different vehicles, but you can find keys by the set or one at a time on eBay pretty easily. The only time I've run into limitations on the bi-directional capabilities are on the Euro cars and some Japanese cars.

 

[toddoky]

Thanks for the pointer - I will check this out. I just did a quick search and it looks reasonably priced (based on a very quick price check. I did not know about this - much appreciated.

No problem. It's actually a bargain for providing guaranteed full access diagnostics for Ford vehicles. If you were working in a shop and needed to work on every car available, then I would suggest something else.

 

[kctyphoon]

I just bought the HF $135 scanner that does odb2 and abs.. Its not a $1000 scanner but it can give u real time info. The next model up is a $1000 tablet that u can use a 20% off coupon with.. Read the reviews its probably the best bang for you're buck if u WANT to spend that much.. My $135 model can read the live info on all the sensors, graph info, but its hardly a professional scanner.. The HF scanners are made by Autel and just rebranded..

 

[toddoky]

I just bought the HF $135 scanner that does odb2 and abs.. Its not a $1000 scanner but it can give u real time info. The next model up is a $1000 tablet that u can use a 20% off coupon with.. Read the reviews its probably the best bang for you're buck if u WANT to spend that much.. My $135 model can read the live info on all the sensors, graph info, but its hardly a professional scanner.. The HF scanners are made by Autel and just rebranded..

Reading codes/data will not be enough to fix/service a late model vehicle if you want to do all the work on your car yourself. You need bi-directional functionality and reprogramming/initialization capabilities as well.

 

[WhiffySpark]

reprogramming is spotty on diagnostic scanners. Some things are covered most aren't. You need a laptop and subscription for reprogramming usually

 

[blarf]

For Audi, VAG-COM (pirated or legit), hands down. Check the VW forums for more info. For more generic things like live OBD2 data, get an ELM 327 based adapter and an app for your phone like Torque or OBD Auto Doctor. For the American stuff, check the forums and see what's recommended.

 

[pacemade]

Get yourself a good DMM, you can test everything with one as long as you have the factory values to your application.
ABS rarely fail, the number one cause is from debris and particles being forced back up the system while the brake calipers are being squeezed back.
The engine diagnostic is most likely going to tell you where the misfire is and not how to fix it. To fix it you need to check your plugs for fowling or coolant burn off. Tune-up, check fuel and ignition system.
I would suggest a book on engine diagnostics and OBD II. Your going to need to know how the systems operate that come up on the scan tool

 

[kctyphoon]

You should be able to do 90% of what you would need to do with a scanner and a multi meter.. Anything more complicated than that - chances are your better off bringing it somewhere anyway.

The average person does not need the same thing as someone working in a dealer.. Thats why there's forums and Google to help narrow your searches down.. Unless you plan on going to school to learn how to use all the **** they are suggesting, what's the sense.

 

[rnpatrick]

Get yourself a good DMM, you can test everything with one as long as you have the factory values to your application.
ABS rarely fail, the number one cause is from debris and particles being forced back up the system while the brake calipers are being squeezed back.
The engine diagnostic is most likely going to tell you where the misfire is and not how to fix it. To fix it you need to check your plugs for fowling or coolant burn off. Tune-up, check fuel and ignition system.
I would suggest a book on engine diagnostics and OBD II. Your going to need to know how the systems operate that come up on the scan tool

I hear you on the DMM - have 2 and the best accessories I ever bought were insulation piercing probes and back-pin probes - I can't believe I lived 50+ years without those things

Jeep intermittent misfires on the 4.0 are very common - I ordered new plugs (which it needed anyway) and if that fixes it then end of story. Otherwise, there are a dozen things that could be causing it and I don't want to just swap out $500 worth of parts when I could spend that money on a good scanner and make life easier in the future.

Both the Jeep and Ford have pretty good diagnostic procedures in Alldatadiy but in both cases I have gotten up to the point where it requires to connect a scan tool and read various values while operating the vehicle. I've wanted to go beyond just pulling codes for years and am finally frustrated enough to spend the $

 

[toddoky]

reprogramming is spotty on diagnostic scanners. Some things are covered most aren't. You need a laptop and subscription for reprogramming usually

Correct, which is why I feel a laptop Ford IDS/VCMll set-up can't be beat for the price for anyone interested in servicing Fords exclusively.

 

[pacemade]

Your talking advanced engine diagnostic, pretty much the diagnostic tool is a mini dyna and if that's the route you want to go make sure it has snap shot, so you can save the troubled variables or at least store the high and low readings.

Gap the plugs to specs even if they are new, generously apply dialectical grease to the plug and wire connector. It doesn't hurt to add dialectical to the other end of the plug connectors either. And I like to use some fuel additive for a cleaner burn.

A misfire has everything to do with the igniting of the fuel.

 

[blarf]

You should be able to do 90% of what you would need to do with a scanner and a multi meter.. Anything more complicated than that - chances are your better off bringing it somewhere anyway.

The average person does not need the same thing as someone working in a dealer.. Thats why there's forums and Google to help narrow your searches down.. Unless you plan on going to school to learn how to use all the **** they are suggesting, what's the sense.

Eh, even in the OBD2-only space, something like Torque + WiFi dongle + cheapie Android tablet is far more powerful than one of those dinky tools from HF. That dongle can be used on a proper laptop or an iOS device if you ever want to step up to something more powerful or portable.

OTOH using the proprietary tools will allow you to dig into far more than just engine diagnostics. Anything that's computerized can be poked at this way. On a modern car this can be a huge win. All of a sudden you can diagnose climate control or power seat issues. In any case, the vendor proprietary codes are often far more specific than the generic OBD2 codes.

BMW side, using the proprietary tools will essentially give you an oscilloscope on your laptop. You can get current draw, RF info, switch position, etc. You can activate things, etc. This can be extremely useful for fault tracing. If you plan to keep the car a few years, it's well worth the investment in time and money.

And, sure, all the special codes in the world won't fix the problem, but it can give you a very good indication of where to start looking.

Jeep intermittent misfires on the 4.0 are very common - I ordered new plugs (which it needed anyway) and if that fixes it then end of story. Otherwise, there are a dozen things that could be causing it and I don't want to just swap out $500 worth of parts when I could spend that money on a good scanner and make life easier in the future.

Absolutely. At the very least, a cheap tablet or laptop makes a much nicer thing to graph live data on.

 

[theoldwizard1]

There is still no substitute for "basic" auto electric knowledge and trouble shooting with a DMM and/or a 12V test light.


The basic OBD-II codes have been standardized since 1996 and only cover the "powertrain" (which may or may not include the transmission or 4WD/AWD controller). OBD-II does NOT cover ABS or "body" module codes or air bag modules. There are also "vendor specific" powertrain codes.

There are scanners on the market in the +/-$200 range that will read all OBD-II code and MOST ABS/body codes. The price goes up if you want to monitor live data, CAN Bus data or store/capture data and make graphs, etc of that data. Not many will help diagnosis TPMS.

The most popular brands (not necessarily in order) are Autel, INNOVA and Actron. Many of the other brands on the market are relabled from these manufactures and may be "last years" models. Also, new models from these vendors are not necessarily "better". Possibly they are just different plastic housings/colors and MAYBE some software updates.


Most of the "professional" scan tools require the software to be updated yearly ($$$).

 

[pacemade]

The Federal Government passed a lot of laws on Emissions, every vehicle has a mandatory 5 year/50,000 mile warranty on all emission defects. The government pushed for the OBD-II system to be put into every automobile for emissions purposes. This is why you have to go to each manufacturer and pay extra for ABS and other designs not mandatory by federal law. The whole purpose of the check engine light is to lower emissions. It wont tell you what is wrong with your car only the area that is causing a higher emission, or the sensor that is putting out a funny reading.

 

[pacemade]

Any part of the powertrain that affects emissions will be included in any generic scan tool. The specialty in this area is called Engine diagnostic and performance, and is completely separate from engine repair and rebuild.

 

[pacemade]

They do make scan tools that read everything from brakes to ac. They also make climate control systems that run off GPS and adjust your temperature controls based upon the local weather and your position to the sun. You might need a scan tool to trouble shoot this system but like the ABS system you would also have to be a specialist in that area.

 

[pacemade]

Another part of a scan tool most people wouldn't need is the air bag portion, this is strictly a forensic field you have to be certified in crash forensics and hired by a local agency of the government.

 

[abvw]

Eh, even in the OBD2-only space, something like Torque + WiFi dongle + cheapie Android tablet is far more powerful than one of those dinky tools from HF. That dongle can be used on a proper laptop or an iOS device if you ever want to step up to something more powerful or portable.

This.

Those cheap code readers aren't worth the time. They're not self powered, the cord is too short (and is not fused), the screen *****, no min/max values, the coverage outside of generic OBD2 is quite spotty and it takes too much time to "set it up right" to read live data. They are only good for checking I/M readiness and quick generic code reading.

 

[kctyphoon]

Well here's what the HF / Autel models do.. The abs model ($135 w/o using 20% off) does a lot considering.. Updates are free. I like mine..

 

[blarf]

There is still no substitute for "basic" auto electric knowledge and trouble shooting with a DMM and/or a 12V test light.

Yep. Diagnostic info will give you a good idea of where to stick that probe, however.

Most of the "professional" scan tools require the software to be updated yearly ($$$).

Most of these "professional" tool are indeed quite expensive. A good ELM 327 dongle can be had for about $50 (USB, $150 for BT). Torque runs about $5 for the "pro" version. To me, that's a steal. It's like SnapOn, right? You pay for the warranty and support. A DIYer doesn't need all that, so what sense does it make to invest in such a tool?

Because the ELM 327 protocol is pretty well documented, you aren't tied down to one program. When something better comes along, you can try/buy that with the same hardware.

The proprietary stuff is invaluable IMO. For a relatively small buy in (BMW), I got a cheapie K-line cable that I can use to access anything (incl. ABS, SRS, suspension, body and lighting modules, etc). No forced subscriptions, nada.

Another part of a scan tool most people wouldn't need is the air bag portion, this is strictly a forensic field you have to be certified in crash forensics and hired by a local agency of the government.

Hardly. A good example from the BMW world is the passenger seat occupancy sensor. They are failure prone and will set the airbag light in the instrument cluster. The seat belt buckle wiring also fails, and also set off the airbag light. With a tool that can read/clear the SRS codes, buying a car with the airbag light on is a lot less troublesome.

 

[purplezr2]

I have the Ford Autoenginity setup. It works really well for 7.3 powerstrokes I have worked on. I haven't work on any other Fords.

 

[pacemade]

I almost bought a TPMS tool but all cars have at least two manual ways of reprogramming the sensors. The tool with the rewrite program is very expensive, I could not bring myself to buy it because I would only need it with naming new sensors and renaming a few used. I ended up driving the cars from the shop I was working in to another shop. Most shops rewrite and reprogram your sensors for free, they charge you for mounting and dismounting tires with tpms inside them.
Does anyone have a good TPMS tool or opted for the program in their diagnostic tool?

 

[WhiffySpark]

I almost bought a TPMS tool but all cars have at least two manual ways of reprogramming the sensors. The tool with the rewrite program is very expensive, I could not bring myself to buy it because I would only need it with naming new sensors and renaming a few used. I ended up driving the cars from the shop I was working in to another shop. Most shops rewrite and reprogram your sensors for free, they charge you for mounting and dismounting tires with tpms inside them.
Does anyone have a good TPMS tool or opted for the program in their diagnostic tool?

Tpms3 is the only one with owning. It really varies by car and sometimes it's a lot faster to use the tool. Some cars you have to use it when they call for two different pressures

We had bartec and it was junk at a chain.

 

[jerseykat1]

I have the simple OBD-II code readers that can read codes and clear a CEL but am beginning to think I need something more. I need a tool that can read values as the vehicle is operated, similar to the way the dealer tools can. And I would also like it to be able to access ALL the subsystems (ABS, transmission, etc.) and not just the engine.

I have a Ford with an intermittent ABS issues and the diagnostic procedure says to read various values while driving the vehicle.

I have a Jeep with an intermittent misfire condition that would also be easier to diagnose if I could read values while driving.

Is there a decent alternative to the dealer diagnostic scan tools that will cover Ford, Audi, Chrysler and Jeep (among others)? The main problem I feel like I have is that I don't know what I don't know about these things. For example, when I bought my first cheap code reader, I did not know that not every reader can read ABS codes so I had to buy a second reader to pull ABS codes. Now I find out that I need to read stuff in real time which my reader does not do. Having to re-buy a $50 code reader ticks me off but does not break the bank. Spending $1000 on a diagnostic scanner and THEN finding out that it won't do something I thought it would do is a different story.

Any suggestions or pointers to sites I can use to get smarter on these things appreciated. I do all my own maintenance and feel like I am ready to invest some money in one of these things but don't want to make an expensive mistake.

Sorry if this has already been asked before - seems like something that should have been asked already but the search terms must be too generic - was getting 1000's of threads.

AMAZON has it at a good price RITE HERE. There is YouTube Videos showing that you an actually program Ford Keys with it and a few other things that Snap-on scanners can't do. I think it's a great value in that Price Range

 

[theoldwizard1]

Another part of a scan tool most people wouldn't need is the air bag portion, this is strictly a forensic field you have to be certified in crash forensics and hired by a local agency of the government.

Not exactly true. Many/most air bag warning lights are cause by a sensor (typically set or seat belt) becoming disconnected. It sure would be nice to get the code and know which one.

 

[kctyphoon]

AMAZON has it at a good price RITE HERE. There is YouTube Videos showing that you an actually program Ford Keys with it and a few other things that Snap-on scanners can't do. I think it's a great value in that Price Range

Well like I've been saying, that's the same tablet sold in Hf, bit I you buy it from HF you get to use a 20% off coupon instead of paying full price on amazon.. Heck, I don't even that that model is rebranded Centec ....


Still, a bit much for just a guy at home.. Just a word of caution, don't expect everyone on here to jump at the chance of helping you when u have questions on how to use it..

http://www.harborfreight.com/autel-maxidas-automotive-diagnostic-and-analysis-system-62385.html

 

[jerseykat1]

Well like I've been saying, that's the same tablet sold in Hf, bit I you buy it from HF you get to use a 20% off coupon instead of paying full price on amazon.. Heck, I don't even that that model is rebranded Centec ....

Still, a bit much for just a guy at home.. Just a word of caution, don't expect everyone on here to jump at the chance of helping you when u have questions on how to use it..

It's not rebranded at HF.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[jerseykat1]

879 with coupon on HF just make sure you ask about there return policy. They may have a 20% restocking fee on that if you change your mind and decided it is overkill.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[blown94conv]

What do you get in the "Free" updates? I don't think I've ever seen anyone post what they got when they updated an Autel scanner.

Unless you know how to work one of these, or are willing to put in the time to figure it out, I'd rather pay 2 hours of diag when I have a serious problem (2 hours at $100 an hour, $200 times 5 visits = $1,000), then buy a scanner I don't know how to use. Could possibly cause alot more problems then solve.

 

[jerseykat1]

What do you get in the "Free" updates? I don't think I've ever seen anyone post what they got when they updated an Autel scanner.

Unless you know how to work one of these, or are willing to put in the time to figure it out, I'd rather pay 2 hours of diag when I have a serious problem (2 hours at $100 an hour, $200 times 5 visits = $1,000), then buy a scanner I don't know how to use. Could possibly cause alot more problems then solve.

You can't do much damage with this unit. It doesn't have programing capabilities. The UI is rather intuitive as well.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[WhiffySpark]

I can't stand that scanner. Too slow, too much **** to sort through. Menus hve weird names. It takes like 10 minutes to do a whole car scan. Ridiculous

If you're using it at home, maybe. I would look into the maxime or whatever matco sells with subscription

 

[ovilla]

This is what I use for real-time code scanning and logging as I drive. The best part is that you can customize your laptop screen to have the exact same gauges as your car and you can even set up alarms to go off at preset values (I.e. Gauges can beep or change color if they exceed a certain value).

www.autotap.com

 

[rnpatrick]

You can't do much damage with this unit. It doesn't have programing capabilities. The UI is rather intuitive as well.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

jerseykat - have you had yours long enough to need to update it? Do they charge for the updates?

More important - will it continue to work AFTER they publish a new update or after the first year? OR is the update just needed if you get a vehicle made after you bought the scanner? Some things like this will work forever with the software they come loaded with but, say, 2 years from now if you you buy a 2018 car you will need to update the software so the scanner knows the system. This is understandable and as long as the cost is reasonable (or FREE) a workable solution.

I looked into the Ford factory scanner and it appears that if you don't pay the 'subscription' fee it stops working after a year which is a major issue for me. I don't mind paying for an update to get the newer model years but best I could tell from their crappy web site and searching the web the software subscription is $700-ish per year - too rich for my blood

 

[rnpatrick]

Just wanted to thank all who have responded to this thread - the info has been super helpful and been spot on for what I needed to get smarter on these things.

Have a Happy New Year!