Does anyone have a 2005 or previous code book laying around?

[sparky 1971]

I need the code reference that a three wire feeder needs to have the neutral bonded.

I have a friend that was telling me about a service call he went on to add a circuit for a compressor. It's a pole barn built in the 90's. He was telling me how he couldn't believe some idiot ran a three wire feeder to it and actually bonded the neutral, so he took the bonding screw out and installed a separate ground bar to isolate the grounds. I told him he needs to get back out there asap and put the screw back in. It turned into a bit of an argument which ended with he wasn't going to drive all the way back out there unless I could prove it to him.

I thought I had a 2005 NEC on the shelf, but I don't. The oldest code book I have is a 2008, and I believe that's the first edition that required four wire feeders. I did show him 250.32(B)(1) exception #1 in the 2020, but that isn't good enough even though it speaks of previous editions of the NEC allowing the grounded conductor being used as a ground fault return path.

 

[alfredeneuman]

2005 NEC>
250.21
(B) Alternating-Current Systems of 50 Volts to 1000Volts.
Alternating-current systems of 50 volts to 1000 volts
that supply premises wiring and premises wiring systems
shall be grounded under any of the following conditions:
(1) Where the system can be grounded so the maximum voltage to ground on ungrounded conductors does not exceed 150 volts.

It's the same wording as in the 2002 NEC

 

[Bert_]

I don't know why it's hard to understand. Shouldn't even need a code reference to get it.

A ground wire always needs to return to the neutral connection at the transformer. It has to connect to neutral in order to clear a fault. Dirt doesn't carry fault current. If the ground doesn't connect back to the neutral at some point it's wrong and dangerous, simple as that.

 

[Dagny]

only grounding is the rods and all the metal things in the shed. yeh put it back

 

[sparky 1971]

I know that. You know that. Almost all of us know that. I agree, it's pretty easy to understand and I really don't know what the problem is. He was even dropping names of the instructors that taught him that the neutral doesn't get bonded when he went through the IBEW apprenticeship in the 90's. (before I get jumped on that the IBEW wouldn't teach such a thing, I know. He's mistaken). The kind of funny part is that he told me the ground rods are usually good enough, but admitted that they aren't so good if the ground is dry.

 

[sparky 1971]

I don't know why it's hard to understand. Shouldn't even need a code reference to get it.

A ground wire always needs to return to the neutral connection at the transformer. It has to connect to neutral in order to clear a fault. Dirt doesn't carry fault current. If the ground doesn't connect back to the neutral at some point it's wrong and dangerous, simple as

 

[sparky 1971]

only grounding is the rods and all the metal things in the shed. yeh put it back

Yep. That's why I want the code reference.

 

[Terry D]

I don't have a 2005 NEC, what I do have is my 2008 analysis of changes. Looks like 215.6. Pretty much starting in 2008 requires a 4-wire feeder, but all existing 3-wire is grandfathered by the exception in 250.32(B). which still reads like that in the 2017 NEC. Im sure the 2020 is same, just don't have the edition yet

 

[wyliesdiesels]

How about the online free version on the NFPA’s website?

 

[mike93lx]

Your buddy sounds like someone that will continue to come up with excuses why he is right and you are wrong. A code reference probably won't change anything

 

[BigGarage]

2005 NEC>
250.21
(B) Alternating-Current Systems of 50 Volts to 1000Volts.
Alternating-current systems of 50 volts to 1000 volts
that supply premises wiring and premises wiring systems
shall be grounded under any of the following conditions:
(1) Where the system can be grounded so the maximum voltage to ground on ungrounded conductors does not exceed 150 volts.

It's the same wording as in the 2002 NEC

In my 2005 NEC codebook this above info is from the 250.20 . The 250.21 info is different.

To answer the OP, yes I have a 2005 NEC National Electrical Code book.

 

[alfredeneuman]

In my 2005 NEC codebook this above info is from the 250.20 . The 250.21 info is different.

To answer the OP, yes I have a 2005 NEC National Electrical Code book.

Yes, I made another mistake (that's the story of my life). The correct cite is 250.20

 

[sparky 1971]

I don't have a 2005 NEC, what I do have is my 2008 analysis of changes. Looks like 215.6. Pretty much starting in 2008 requires a 4-wire feeder, but all existing 3-wire is grandfathered by the exception in 250.32(B). which still reads like that in the 2017 NEC. Im sure the 2020 is same, just don't have the edition yet

That did it. He claims to be going out to put it back today. Thank you.

How about the online free version on the NFPA’s website?

I didn't know there was such a thing.

Your buddy sounds like someone that will continue to come up with excuses why he is right and you are wrong. A code reference probably won't change anything

Almost. The picture in the 2008 analysis Terry posted is what finally did it.

Yes, I made another mistake (that's the story of my life). The correct cite is 250.20

It didn't matter. It was nothing but an argument with him telling me that that cite meant it had to have ground rods. In the end, it required a picture.

 

[TRWham]

How about the online free version on the NFPA’s website?

One of the handiest references available. You can look up current code, but we also do many renovations, and it's sometimes useful to know what the code was originally.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I didn't know there was such a thing.

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[4xdog]

I found a copy of the 1975 NEC yesterday on the shelves as I‘m cleaning out my parents’ old home. Almost certainly my brother’s when he was in high school.

Lemme know if you need a specific section, @sparky 1971.

 

[engineer2]

I've got a 1999 code book around here somewhere. Read it all too.