Does anyone have geothermal heating?

[volleyball]

Though I am not a fan of geothermal , you nailed it about the $30 ,000 cars.
When people can not show off , brag , dream about the heating system , it's
Not important to them.
The heating industry has not done enough to promote high end equip as far as I am concerned and that is one reason selling equipment like this is an up hill battle.

Vacuums were $39 and then comes Dysons
Washers were $299 and then front loaders came
Tube tv's were $79 and then came big screens
Counter tops were formica and now there is granite.

Don't see the same for HVAC.

I admit that I like home improvement shows more than "reality" tv that have nothing to do with reality.
When people run into problems, if it is structural, they want the no cost solution and don't have money for fixes. Now if you say, there is no money for granite or a fancy plumbing fixture, they always seem to come up with the money for that. Every time I show off my hidden upgrades, all I get is yawns. When I show that outlet that took all weekend to install the wiring, I get "That nice". Replace a working faucet with another that is nicer and I get praise usually reserved for Gods.

 

[JimL]

But very few would be stopped buying a $30k vehicle. And that won't last as long. But your HVAC system doesn't get you to work and back.
Another great thing about geo is that you don't do setbacks. So getting up in the middle of the night is as comfortable as in the morning. Just the savings of not having to buy nest devices shortens the payback period. Those things are pricey.

I never set back my stat… Not sure why you would… I like to be comfortable.

 

[cork]

I install geothermal systems at work, maybe I could answer some questions. Both the owners of the company have it installed at their houses and our shop as well. In five years we have done about 1000 installations.

What part of PA?

 

[Trey T]

That $30K car is a good example but we have to understand the detail of the financial side of it.

$30K for a lot of people requires financing, not something they are willing to pay upfront cash. A $30K car, or even $60K, can be financed at as few as 2% to zero% APR up to 60months. For geothermal financing, are there a lot of opportunity out there? If not, you're looking into personal loan which can be not attractive.

$30K car vs $30K geothermal comparison isn't quite direct after all. There are a lot of other factors out there b/t the two but that's just one perspective.

But very few would be stopped buying a $30k vehicle. And that won't last as long. But your HVAC system doesn't get you to work and back.
Another great thing about geo is that you don't do setbacks. So getting up in the middle of the night is as comfortable as in the morning. Just the savings of not having to buy nest devices shortens the payback period. Those things are pricey.

 

[volleyball]

Capitol improvement. You can get a loan and maybe even roll it into your mortgage. We didn't have the up front cash to do it all.
I did up front saying they weren't the same. Most people don't need a 30k ride so there is some discretion there. We all have a limited pot of money even if ones pot is 100 x bigger than another.
As with a nicer ride, to me the geo is so much more comfortable. With 12' of baseboard gone and the registers not taking up space, I can triple the number of kitchen cabinets. Fit in that pro style range. That has lots of value to my family.

 

[Jackfre]

Back in the 70's I was doing geothermal systems. Rather than a well or horiz loops I used to use the swimming pool as the heat sink. Put a good glazed solar system on the pool and depending upon location a cover or enclose the pool and use the pool water. They worked well. In summer we rejected heat to the pool. You have to be careful there. Some systems required a small cooling tower.

Today, do mini-splits. You are tickling the efficiencies of ego for a fraction of the cost. In NY add a bit of supplemental heat( I use Rinnai Energysavers). All net to the space and affordAble.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Today, do mini-splits. You are tickling the efficiencies of ego for a fraction of the cost. In NY add a bit of supplemental heat( I use Rinnai Energysavers). All net to the space and affordAble.

VERY TRUE !

Geothermal still wins at the extremes, but how many days a year is that ? Probably less than a dozen for most of America.

 

[RGausman]

Well this my first post to GJ.

Came across this site doing research for a shop air compressor.

Installed a 4-ton Hydron Module system back in 2008 after taking a three day
IGSHPA-certified Ground Source Heat Pump Installer course. This system is a 2000 foot horizontal closed ground loop. The system also generates most of our hot water. The system cost us about 15K doing the work ourselves. The only problem so far was this year one of the two ground loop circulator pumps had seized up.

Before installing the system, we were running $400 to $600 per month electric bills during heating season. We now peak out about $100 per month during heating season. People always ask how the pay back is working. We do not think about how much money we are saving or when the return on investment is paid back. We enjoy have a comfortable, dependable, quiet, clean heating/cooling system.

Another benefit is there is no outside fan coil so there is no noise or having someone stealing it for the copper...

Installed a 'Web Energy Logger' from day one. You can watch current performance of the system by going to the following link...
http://www.welserver.com/WEL0058/

See other WEL sites here...
http://www.welserver.com/


Bob G.

 

[volleyball]

Mini splits don't work well if you have rooms. And you have basically moved the window unit to the wall. In NY, they aren't much good for a few months of the year when your need is greatest so you bill go sky high.
And they are not good at cleaning the air which I needed to do.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

I think the technology is really cool, but I've heard some outlandish quotes.

This is an article where the author got a quote that ended up being $70,000.
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/solar-at-home/2011/04/18/is-a-geothermal-heat-pump-right-for-you/

 

[volleyball]

I think the technology is really cool, but I've heard some outlandish quotes.

This is an article where the author got a quote that ended up being $70,000.
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/solar-at-home/2011/04/18/is-a-geothermal-heat-pump-right-for-you/

I am further north than him and 2 450' wells were overkill. It costs less to drill deeper than more wells.
There are water to water heat pumps so that is another misinterpretation. No steam but a hot water system.
If the guy has insulated and done all those things, he might have design things like a huge house. Several large chimneys, large expanses of glass. People who leave the doors open for a long time walking in and out.

Problem with internet searches is that anybody can write what they want. The guy gives no pertinent details as to how what he thinks relates to your project. A quote is just that, a single number from 1 person who might or might not want to do the job.
Geo is expensive. Very expensive. An investment. Not for everyone, but it could be worth getting a couple of estimates if you are truly interested.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

Well this my first post to GJ.

Installed a 'Web Energy Logger' from day one. You can watch current performance of the system by going to the following link...
http://www.welserver.com/WEL0058/

See other WEL sites here...
http://www.welserver.com/


Bob G.

Great post Bob!

For the Logger to work right, you must have a large number of thermometers scatter all over the house and system sending information to the logging system. Where can I find information about that?

 

[Bib Overalls]

We have a HydroTemp unit. Put it in when we built the house 12 years ago. Big savings over electric and propane. Do it again in a heartbeat.

 

[Cjk]

I have been thinking about installing a geo system to heat my future shop. I have seen -20 degrees a few times this year in the mornings and the day never broke above zero.

Do they handle extreme cold like we have been having?

 

[kd3pc]

I have been thinking about installing a geo system to heat my future shop. I have seen -20 degrees a few times this year in the mornings and the day never broke above zero.

Do they handle extreme cold like we have been having?

they do very well, when used in conjunction with sound building practices, ie insulation, and when engineered and installed correctly.

For your temps, I would opt for water to water exchanger.

May be overkill for a shop, but they work and work very well. I have yet to see electric or HHO go down in price, so geo gets cheaper as fuel costs continue to rise.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

I am further north than him and 2 450' wells were overkill. It costs less to drill deeper than more wells.
There are water to water heat pumps so that is another misinterpretation. No steam but a hot water system.
If the guy has insulated and done all those things, he might have design things like a huge house. Several large chimneys, large expanses of glass. People who leave the doors open for a long time walking in and out.

Problem with internet searches is that anybody can write what they want. The guy gives no pertinent details as to how what he thinks relates to your project. A quote is just that, a single number from 1 person who might or might not want to do the job.
Geo is expensive. Very expensive. An investment. Not for everyone, but it could be worth getting a couple of estimates if you are truly interested.

But I would say this article is far more researched and comes from a reputable source than say a random person making a post on a forum. Scientific American is a reputable publication, it was founded in 1845. So I'm guessing his $70,000 quote isn't something that was pulled out of his ***.

It seems to me people seriously lowball the real cost of geothermal.

I'm sure there's applications where it makes financial sense, but I would wager in most cases, it doesn't.

 

[Zick]

I have been thinking about installing a geo system to heat my future shop. I have seen -20 degrees a few times this year in the mornings and the day never broke above zero.

Do they handle extreme cold like we have been having?

We have a Waterfurance Synergy 3d Geothermal system in our house and it has had absolutely no problems keeping up w/ the extreme cold this year.

But I would say this article is far more researched and comes from a reputable source than say a random person making a post on a forum. Scientific American is a reputable publication, it was founded in 1845. So I'm guessing his $70,000 quote isn't something that was pulled out of his ***.

It seems to me people seriously lowball the real cost of geothermal.

I'm sure there's applications where it makes financial sense, but I would wager in most cases, it doesn't.

We built in 09' and our entire heating & floor radiant system was around ~$50K (not including the 30% rebate) for a ~3Ksqft house.

 

[volleyball]

Just because it was in the journal, doesn't make it all true. I believe the guy got a quote. And he reported that. But I bet there was no check into the reliability of the quote.
The guy could have just had the wrong house. Maybe he had special walls and 30k was in renovating the house after the ductwork was installed.
My job required me to reroute the main plumbing line and replace the main elec. panel and add a sub panel. That could have added up to $10k to an estimate.
Real world pre tax credit would be between $15 and $50k for most residential jobs.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

Just because it was in the journal, doesn't make it all true. I believe the guy got a quote. And he reported that. But I bet there was no check into the reliability of the quote.
The guy could have just had the wrong house. Maybe he had special walls and 30k was in renovating the house after the ductwork was installed.
My job required me to reroute the main plumbing line and replace the main elec. panel and add a sub panel. That could have added up to $10k to an estimate.
Real world pre tax credit would be between $15 and $50k for most residential jobs.

And how do we know you're a more reliable source?

Sorry, I trust an esteemed scientific journal to get an accurate picture of what it costs over a random internet poster. And it's clear the author is actually a fan of the technology, so its not like he has some sort of axe to grind.

If you read the article, he was actually purposely leaving many parts of the quote out that would make it more expensive, like installing a new driveway after the existing one was being ripped out and all the permit/legal fees. So the real world cost would be actually much higher for his specific case.

Also, another example he points to in the article:

"Others confirm that retrofitting an old house for geothermal heat makes sense only under limited circumstances. Tom Mandel in Teaneck, N.J., one of the first homeowners in the state to give it a go, estimates he paid $55,000.... he doubts he’ll ever recoup the expense. He adds that his house takes longer to heat up than before and requires an extra boost from an electric heater when the outside temperature drops below 20 degrees."

Earlier in this thread, one person was saying it cost $50,000 for his installation.

The average utility bill in the United States is around $160 a month

Let's be generous and say it cuts the bill in half

$80 x 12 = $960 per year divided by $50,000

= 52 plus years


And honestly, that's being optimistic as you're going to need supplemental heating or cooling in addition to the Geothermal system. Also, I don't believe for a minute these systems are going to have that sort of lifespan without some repair and maintenance.

I'm sure there's extremes where it makes financial sense, and I'm sure you could throw enough subsidies at it to make it more attractive but for most Americans, it's far more expensive than traditional sources of heating and cooling.

 

[kd3pc]

And honestly, that's being optimistic as you're going to need supplemental heating or cooling in addition to the Geothermal system.

Patently not true. Heat and Cool at my fathers house, is as easy as selecting a zone and setting the thermostat. No aux heat/duct heaters or AC. Just the geothermal.

And as to the savings, those are real, whether you like the facts or not. And not $40 or $50 a month, but often 10 TIMES that.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

Patently not true. Heat and Cool at my fathers house, is as easy as selecting a zone and setting the thermostat. No aux heat/duct heaters or AC. Just the geothermal.

And as to the savings, those are real, whether you like the facts or not. And not $40 or $50 a month, but often 10 TIMES that.

In the article I cited, a user specifically says it requires additional heating on days when it's colder.

"He adds that his house takes longer to heat up than before and requires an extra boost from an electric heater when the outside temperature drops below 20 degrees."
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/solar-at-home/2011/04/18/is-a-geothermal-heat-pump-right-for-you/

Just because you don't require it for your installation doesn't mean no one else requires it. You do know the weather is different depending on what part of the country you live in.

 

[kd3pc]

In the article I cited, a user specifically says it requires additional heating on days when it's colder.

"He adds that his house takes longer to heat up than before and requires an extra boost from an electric heater when the outside temperature drops below 20 degrees."
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/solar-at-home/2011/04/18/is-a-geothermal-heat-pump-right-for-you/

Just because you don't require it for your installation doesn't mean no one else requires it. You do know the weather is different depending on what part of the country you live in.

I give, you are right. Carry on. One user requiring supplemental, negates an entire industry? He must be right also.

sheesh?!?

 

[volleyball]

The average utility bill is $160. Where and when? That is mine now but it use to be way higher. That $160 is for what? Not likely to include the oil, gas and wood many use to heat.
You read one article and now consider an expert. Wow.
If you don't want to do it. don't. If you are interested. go learn something and you will see how silly your article really is.
You don't have to believe my post but I have it, researched it and was integral part of installation. If you prefer to believe a vintage article from someone who doesn't seem to have any more knowledge than interest and asking 1 dealer. Me and all the other owners in this post alone must then all just be wrong and lying.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

I give, you are right. Carry on. One user requiring supplemental, negates an entire industry? He must be right also.

sheesh?!?

Apology accepted.

And who said it negated the whole industry, my point was just that in most applications, it doesn't make financial sense. If it makes sense in your case, by all means install geothermal.

For my house, I would be looking at likely a 30-50 year payback period, and I would require supplemental cooling.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

The average utility bill is $160. Where and when? That is mine now but it use to be way higher. That $160 is for what? Not likely to include the oil, gas and wood many use to heat.
You read one article and now consider an expert. Wow.
If you don't want to do it. don't. If you are interested. go learn something and you will see how silly your article really is.
You don't have to believe my post but I have it, researched it and was integral part of installation. If you prefer to believe a vintage article from someone who doesn't seem to have any more knowledge than interest and asking 1 dealer. Me and all the other owners in this post alone must then all just be wrong and lying.

The article I linked from Scientific American is silly, instead I should trust a guy named "Volleyball" on the internet for the real facts. Whatever you say.

I just encourage people to do the math about what they are really going to save and what they spend on heating and cooling.

 

[volleyball]

I trust a guy named "Volleyball" on the internet for the real facts. Whatever you say.

I just encourage people to do the math about what they are really going to save and what they spend on heating and cooling.

Fixed it for you. I encourage you to do the math about todays costs.

 

[GaryS1941]

My first system in1997, a 4-ton unit was $18,000, and the second in 2007, anther 4-ton, was $23,000. and my last one, a 3-ton was $28,000.
All required four wells to 250', and all were in houses that varied by 500 sq ft, and all were in Texas.
That increase pretty much follows inflation. Some contractor's bids were up to 10% higher, but most were close to what I accepted.

 

[RedBKM]

Parents had a 2 loop horizontal installed in new home in 1988. Each loop was 1800 feet if I remember correctly. Unit is still in service but required a few pumps over the years and one loop got a leak. The union fitting in one loop was faulty. It was supposedly very cold during installation and the heating tool that was used may not have sealed it properly.

What about pond loops? Obviously, very few of us have ponds out back but it seems to be the ultimate solution. I saw a guy on Youtube simply toss a giant coil of pipe into the lake. Once it was filled it sunk to the bottom. A short trench to the house and he was done.

 

[jwvess00]

Hi there!

I just bought my shop last October. It came with a house, which I thought was nice Seriously, though, the house is 1600ft. on the first floor, with a geothermal system. The house was built in 1990 and the geo unit is original to the house. The upstairs is 900 ft, and was added later (the house was built intending to have a second floor but it was unfinished when the previous owners bought it). So, upstairs has a smaller traditional heat pump.

Unfortunately the 23-year old geo unit was on its last legs when I bought my house, so as I write this, the local HVAC installer is putting the finishing touches on my new geothermal system. We didn't have to drill any new wells, since the house already had existing loops we could use, but everything else is being replaced. I'm told there are three loops, but I don't know for sure. My installer told me today that they usually drill 150' deep wells, one per ton. This is in Paris, KY (about 15 miles northeast of Lexington, KY).

For my installation, which includes about $1000 in replacing ductwork, and also including an electronic air cleaner and a built-in humidifier, is $17,700. The unit I'm getting is a ClimateMaster Tranquility TE30. Rating is 29.6 EER, 4.8 COP. I'd guess the air cleaner and humidifier are about $1000 combined. I don't have a breakdown handy or I'd give better numbers.

I'll qualify for the 30% tax break on most of that (not the ductwork, but certainly the heat pump itself) so that helps the price.

Given the initial cost, I thought about going with a traditional heat pump instead. They work okay in Kentucky (I grew up in a house with a heat pump, and my last house's heat pump worked fine for me for 14 years). I do not have natural gas on the property, so fuel heat for me would have to be a propane tank.

When I put my old house on the market in August (2013), the heat pump died pretty much the same day I listed it . Replacing that heat pump with the cheapest Trane I could get for the house (1400 ft) was $5600 for both inside air handler and outside unit. For my new house I'd need a bigger unit. After the tax break I'm into my geo unit for around $12,700. I'm not sure how fast it will pay back, since I don't know how much it would cost to run this house on a traditional heat pump, but my smaller house's electric bill was averaging $150/month on cheaper electricity (Kentucky Utilities versus a co-op, about $0.025/KWh differnce).

 

[ayersbrents]

How about this? For the folks on here that do have a heat pump, post your info. Such as telling us what type, size and make of your heat pump. Size and style of your ground loop(for the systems that use the ground for a heat source/sink), past and current utility bills, style and general location of the building it's heating/cooling. I wouldn't ask for exact location of the building or dollar amount of your bills, this is still a public forum. Maybe just post Kwh used and use a general location, like southest MI.

Geothermal looks to be a promising way to go with my house so I'm looking to see what others have and what they are seeing for installation and operation costs. I currently have electric resistance heating in my ceilings(DUMB, trust me- I know.) and last months electric bill was $635. Everything in my house is electric. The chart on my electric bill showing monthly usage shows pretty clearly whether my heat is on for the month or not.

I believe that I will be able to install one for a little under $15,000. This includes installing the ground loop, required plumbing, duct work and electrical myself. I plan on getting a couple of quotes to see the price of a system professionally installed but I feel it will be in the $20,000+ range and that's a bit much for my blood. I was looking at the Bosch greensource cdi series but can not find any prices for these units or anywhere to buy them except for a dealer/installer. Does anyone have any info on these units? Any do it yourself guys have any advice on something like this? Thanks.

 

[wingfootedgodhead]

I've got a seep zone on my property not 200 feet from the proposed new build home site.

Last week I went out there and used my auger to drill a 5 foot deep hole into the muck.

Next I put a remote temperature probe at the -5 feet level at the bottom of the hole and waited a couple of hours for the muck to come back in.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002B0KVFQ/ref=oh_details_o06_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Looks like I have an almost ideal ground loop situation in this seep area for geothermal heat pump setup with temperatures of 51.8 degrees F at 5 feet below ground and saturated soil.

 

[kd3pc]

I've got a seep zone on my property not 200 feet from the proposed new build home site.

Better be careful or you will be sited for disturbing wetlands...there are permitting and engineering issues in VA when using seeps, or swales (has to be damp under there is the logic they use) and "continuously moist" soils (code word for wetland). That then brings in the reviews, environmental impact studies and statements, set asides, sediment control, etc, etc.

They have even sited several well drillers for this, not understanding that they use quite a bit of water in the drill process, and even more in the pumping/setup of the well. Overzealous? Perhaps, but the court costs are real, and outrageous.

Even though one arm of the Gov't advocates using water instead of wells, ala lakes, rivers, bays and such. The other won't even talk about it - try getting a permit to lay 1200' of water hose in the Chesapeake. Even water filled was categorically denied.

 

[volleyball]

How about this? For the folks on here that do have a heat pump, post your info. Such as telling us what type, size and make of your heat pump. Size and style of your ground loop(for the systems that use the ground for a heat source/sink), past and current utility bills, style and general location of the building it's heating/cooling. I wouldn't ask for exact location of the building or dollar amount of your bills, this is still a public forum. Maybe just post Kwh used and use a general location, like southest MI.

Geothermal looks to be a promising way to go with my house so I'm looking to see what others have and what they are seeing for installation and operation costs. I currently have electric resistance heating in my ceilings(DUMB, trust me- I know.) and last months electric bill was $635. Everything in my house is electric. The chart on my electric bill showing monthly usage shows pretty clearly whether my heat is on for the month or not.

I believe that I will be able to install one for a little under $15,000. This includes installing the ground loop, required plumbing, duct work and electrical myself. I plan on getting a couple of quotes to see the price of a system professionally installed but I feel it will be in the $20,000+ range and that's a bit much for my blood. I was looking at the Bosch greensource cdi series but can not find any prices for these units or anywhere to buy them except for a dealer/installer. Does anyone have any info on these units? Any do it yourself guys have any advice on something like this? Thanks.

That is like what is your grocery bill. You need to get some estimates to find out what your cost will be. You really need a good contractor.
I don't see that $15k is doable. But maybe you live in a Hobbit house.
Ductwork is a big variable. My house was all electric baseboard and now have 2 stories of ductwork.

 

[prostock3]

i didnt read anything posted other than does anyone have geo? I have it for my home and have no other backup. I live in michigan and right now outside it is -14F. i have no issues with heat and keep my house at a 68-70. My house size is 1650sq ft. Cost is cheap in the winter and you get a discounted rate for elect. from DTE

 

[theoldwizard1]

Better be careful or you will be sited for disturbing wetlands...

Same in MI !

 

[ayersbrents]

Prostock3, what brand, size and type of loop do you have? It's good to hear that you don't have any issues with your system. I live about 2.5hrs drive NW of you so we both know how cold winters can get and how hot summers can get.

 

[yeldogt]

I'm going through this caluation currently. I am rebuilding a house after a fire.

If I had natural gas available... installing a high end heat pump and using NG for back up would be a no brainer ... even with .18 Kw in PA.

The cost of the equipment between the two -- is about the same ... and the ductwork obvious the same .. adding DHW .. about the same ... maybe a tad more for the geo.

The big cost is the wells. Both in the difficulty of the drill and the amount one need to get the required btu's out of the loops.

The current variable speed heat pumps (air) are night and day compared to what was available just a couple of years ago. Noise is no longer an issue ... but they are big.

In my area the cost of the wells is the problem ... I don't have all the final prices ... but it looks like my payback is 15 years ... and that is best case ... and that never happens.

 

[PT Doc]

We are installing it in our current build. We used horizontal trenches rather than vertical wells. No difference in performance and less expensive but you have to have the land to do it. I'll let you know how it works after a year. We move in in a couple of months.

How could there be no fpdifference in ever performance? Temperature increases with depth.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I'm going through this caluation currently. I am rebuilding a house after a fire.

If I had natural gas available... installing a high end heat pump and using NG for back up would be a no brainer ... even with .18 Kw in PA.
.
.
.
In my area the cost of the wells is the problem ... I don't have all the final prices ... but it looks like my payback is 15 years ... and that is best case ... and that never happens.

Just to add one more scenario, have you priced a high end heat pump with LP backup ? Depending on the efficiency of the heat pump and the temperature range in your area, backup could be a couple of LP gas fireplaces. (That is what my in-laws have.)

LP is more cost effective than electricity for cooking and clothes drying, so I would run those on it. Possibly even for water heating.


Regardless, I would like to see you post your final decision and your supporting data.

 

[yeldogt]

Yes, I have priced the Carrier Greenspeed ... waiting for the newest Trane VS quote .. they are very expensive ... even the Carrier Infinity is expensive .. especially since I need two systems.

The new heat pumps can work at very low temps .. but not like what we have had this year. With Geo you don't need to go to VS compressor .. two speed compressors with VS blowers would be enough for my setup. So the air/air equipment can be more money ... In my area it is the cost of the wells that makes Geo so $$.

The other problem with my area is propane $$ -- if you don't use 300 gal a year -- it is over $5 .. and this was before the problems of this year. I am going to use it for cooking ... not sure what else ... it will all depend on what I do with the heat.