does the average person know or care...

[SpiderGearsMan]

teachers here in the northeast average a good six figure salary that they would really have to hustle for in the private sector . the union has far too much say in what the kiddies learn and I hope to have my little ones in private school . the marxist union types have dumbed things down enough . exceptional people come out of private schools and I don't want my kids anywhere near retard vo-ed .. I am a master auto truck technician who works on cars out of love [at one time ] , not because I couldn't function in regular class

 

[Coach James]

Spiderman, the state with the highest average teacher pay is Connecticut at $59,000 a year. What state are you in?

Coach

 

[MarkH]

teachers here in the northeast average a good six figure salary that they would really have to hustle for in the private sector

Coming from the country, that shocks me for a low 5 figure one my hometown teachers with parents who care and a school board that understands that one size does not fit all students, puts these teachers and parents to shame.

 

[MarkH]

An addendum to the above message it got cut off.

My hometown high school sent a number of students to a college remedial course. The college asked why they had sent them. They were better than the average freshman from the larger well oiled and paid schools. A great comment for the parents and teachers.

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

average pay in certain towns in fairfield , westchester and bergen counties is well over a hundred grand , I am a bus mechanic for a school district in westchester , hell 59 k ain't much around here if you possess a master degree


from ny times
IN Westchester, the study found 1,074 teachers - 1 of every 9 - who made more than $100,000 in the 2003-04 school year, the most recent for which data are available. (That total excludes Yonkers, whose teachers have worked without a contract for the last two years. The state does not collect salary data in districts where salary issues remain unresolved.)

The number of six-figure base salaries tripled between 2001 and 2003; among those in that earning bracket are 223 elementary teachers, 39 kindergarten teachers and 61 physical education teachers. Base salaries do not include stipends for extra duties like coaching and directing plays, which can add thousands.

With combined step and cost-of-living increases, the median salary of a Westchester teacher who had 10 years' experience and a master's degree in 2001 had advanced 5 percent a year by 2003, a time when other salaries in the Northeast went up about 3 percent a year, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

feeding at the public trough is rewarding , like me

 

[Franz©]

Well now Coach, I'll be the first to admit I'm not conversant with the schools in the Carolinas. I damn sure am conversant with the "schools" in NY State though and am also quite well advised onthe schools in Alabama in the last 390 days. My dalin LN keeps quite accurate account od days.

I wonder, did you perchance read Myths of the Teachers Unions By Jay Greene
The American Enterprise | January 9, 2007 ? If you didn't it's on the internet available for free.

As I said, I might be able to qualify as an expert in the NY system, where every decision beyond No child left behinf mandates is completely under the thumb of the NEA and it's sister Unions. Thanks also for the correction on Shanker (as a Navy Chief I always did find his name interesting) and I'll get back to you shortly on the W fellow. Right now I'm operating at a bit of a vision defecit.

As I was saying, I became aware of Alabama's system a bit less than 390 days ago when a 10 year old girl I'll only identify as JJ arived in LN's family via Alabama's foster care system. Like most goster kids, JJ had been bounced around and by the age of 10, her school records indicated JJ was a bit behind. LN's daughter and her husband J & R for purposes of identification were for want of a better term in the adoption market.

J ahuled JJ over to the local school and registered her the Monday she arived, and dropped off all JJ's records. Everything was processed, and JJ was asigned to a class.
2 weeks later, JJ brought home her report card, mostly D average. Big J and R were a bit less than thrilled, so they sat down with JJ and discussed the report. The following week Big J did a little recon and determined the "teachers" held a social on Friday afternoon while the majority of the kids were at PE/Gym/whatever. Big J, (stands 6'1") arives at the social with pad and pencil and politely inquired as th why JJ wasn't doing well. Big J even followed my advice and carried a small recorder along since Alabama is a single party concent State.

Big J sorta figured JJ had well learned to manipulate the system by age 10, and Big J also figured she and the system needed to work together. The aledged "teachers" began by informing Big J JJ was just another System kid from foster care and probably geneticly deficient and Big J really shouldn't expect much. Of course 1 "lead teacher" did suggest JJ would be much better off on a drug like ritalin, and two or three of her fellows agreed.

Now, Big J had been coached, and she sat there makin notes, lookin all impressed and such, and asked each of the "teachers" who had suggested drugging JJ to verify the spelling of their respective names. Naturally they were helpful. Then Big J smiled all polite and such, and informed the so called teachers of a few things.
First, JJ would not be getting drugged into submission or catatonia.
Second, each of JJ's teachers would be completing the homework asignment sheet JJ was suposed to come home with every day and sending it
Third, J & R would be working with JJ every night after supper
Fourth, Big J expected to hear from any aledged teacher of any new problem within 24 hours.
Fifth, the game was over, and if the aledged teachers didn't want to comply Big J would be more than happy to continue the discussion with the School Board.

It suddenly occurred to the "Lead teacher" that there just might be a reason Big J had asked for name verification. She learned Big J would after leaving the school building begin filing a report with the State Medical Board regarding the "teachers" practicing medicine without necessary licensing.

Needless to say, things changed real quick in a certain Alabama school.

The school is being closely observed by Bama's version of child protective, and a lot of kids who were being zoned out chemicly aren't any more. JJ has been fully evaluated by competent people and classified as very bright and a quick learner. She is also not on any drugs to make "teacher's" day one bit easier, and she's getting honest A grades.
JJ, Big J and & spend minimally 1 hour a day on reading and homework, and JJ is becoming unstopable as a learner.

As of Friday the Judge signed the papers and JJ is officially adopted.
R has been studying up on the powers of school boards in Bama, and will probably be standing for election.

For some reason neither the District or the "teachers" Union are real happy about R filing under FOIL for a copy of the current teachers contract.

 

[amwalker]

I graduated from High School in 04, so apparently I've been getting the short end of the stick. Some how, I'd believe that. I would have loved to have been brought up in a time where children knew their place, didn't snap back at authority figures and had a general respect for money/time/hard work.

I was bought up in what many call a bubble. My parents were the ones that made it, that achieved the dream and were living it. Yes we had a few struggles here and there, but they were good enough that I never knew about it till a few years ago. They were also responsible for teaching me about having a conscious, having work ethic and a general respect for everyone else out in the world.

I saw a very different world at high school. Our parking lot for the students could resemble an executive parking lot at a small company. It sure as hell looked a lot better then the teacher lot, and believe me, they took a lot of flak and grief from spoiled teenagers then they deserved.

I have to agree with Coach on this one, I also noticed the same lack of effort/work ethic in todays youth (my generation included). Everyone is more inclined to pay to get something done instead of trying something new and doing it themselves. Heck I even see it in the military, but it's not as bad.

From my end, I'd start out blaming parents. My friends parents would give me the weirdest looks when they would drop my friends off at my house and see my tearing into 72' Datsun 510 parts car. I was 15 and had invited a few of them over to see what a car was really made of. I got the same looks when I told them I was going to the track for the weekend or that I was sore from pulling weeds on our hill, because it was a chore. And yet the same looks when I told them that I was enlisting over going to college.

These were the same parents that threw a fit when their kid got in trouble for being late/ditching. Always blaming the traffic, the parking, school started to early....it was different every week. The only way I was missing school or late was if I was throwing up that morning (and I hate throwing up) or had a really good fever.

Slightly off topic, but I think it fits... Somewhere along the history books, everything came down to the bottom line, and that right there screwed it all up. Hell, I keep zip ties/crimp terminals in my car at work in case I need them on a job...for the Air Force! I just shake my head at it sometimes, I'm a E-4 buying parts for Uncle Sam to get the mission done.

Rant off

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

most people around here pay over 10 grand a year in school and property taxes

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

my buddy in scarsdale pays about 40k a year in property tax , but , he has an indoor pool

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

my buddy in fairfield county pays about 9k a year for the services of a student advocate , to make sure the union thugs don't screw up educating his special needs son

 

[PanelDeland]

Education is a quality tool.Having stated that i think one of the biggest educational challenges we face is that parents are not involved.When I grew up my mother and sometimes dad were at the school at least once or twice a month.They came for teacher conferences,PTA, and functions(Halloween Carnivals, and such).If I got it at school my parents made sure I understood the responsibility that went with it.In other words if I learned a new word I better use it,if I got in trouble I better not repeat it.I did well in grade school but dropped out of HS for 2 years due to social disruption.It wasn't of my making but did affect my education.My mother(a single parent then) moved us to a small town where there was not the issue with the social disruption there had been in the city.I returned to regular HS curicullum and graduated with my name on the honor roll for 3 years.I took a Vo-Ed class in Auto mech because I wanted to and I could.I also worked 2 part time jobs thru my entire final 3 years of HS.One of the best classes I took in HS was a class called Personal Finance.The basic premise was to teach balancing a checkbook,understanding interest,mortgages and the terms used in finance.I hated the class and the ol biddy who taught it as did my uncle when he had her.However that class has had more to do with my financial sucess than anything else in my life.I find that most of the factors in this thread have lots of impact on education but IMHO the fact that parents don't get involved in the teaching of their kids probably contributes most.I'm not talking just academic stuff but morals, work ethic, and even basic right and wrong.I believe the kids today don't understand how to deal with rejection and other common things in any normal life.In short no one teaches life skills.
The most influential teacher I ever had knows it.She taught english(obviously not very well since I can't speak a word of it though I do pretty fair with American),but she taught me how to learn and I have yet to find a subject that I develop an intrest in that her techniques do not work.She did teach me to use what was available so now I can use a computer rather than making the trip to the library.
I find another problem in the attitude of the young "adults" I meet.The ones with a college education seem to have the idea that they can show up the first day to a new job about 9:30-10:00 sipping their latte,while keeping the earpiece to the I-pod in one ear and chatting their (SO) on the cell.Leave about 3:30 or so and still make 6 figures to start and be CEO by friday.
Most parents want to give their children a better life than they had so they tend to do that by giving material things rather than time and wisdom.I don't think there is an easy answer but I do think that creativity and original thinking have taken a big hit from the current situation.
As to tools.I don't think the average Joe on the street has a clue as to quality.They are fed so much disposable stuff they have never had anything of quality in their lives.It scares me in some ways since American industry has determined that it's cheaper to manufacture things overseas.Our nation spends way more time tracking how much they've made and how to make more than producing anything.It caught up some of the toy companies this past year when they distributed toys with lead based paint and other problems.I have no doubt it will catch up with other industries thru competition that has reverse engineered products and produces them cheaper than the American company that paid for the R&D.Some of the compaies leading the free trade agreements did so thinking they would increase their profits by producing stuff cheaper but the truth is the market also decreased due to the lack of manufaturing jobs in the US.The lower number of manufacturing jobs led to increased competition for service jobs thereby artificially keeping labor rates lower for the working class and increasing the distance between the "Haves and have not's".
I don't think there is an answer or resolution for any of these things but I do enjoy a good discussion about them.
BTW I have a B-I-L who sent a lot of Manufacturing Jobs overseas.He had no comment when I asked if he had saved enough money to feed his grandchildren.It was as if he had not thought of the long term consequences and he is a V.P. in a very large US corp.It struck me as just another big gap in education when I realized that a major company had not thought out the consequences of their actions.I could see a person missing this or one or two people in planning not bringing up the big picture in fear of reprisals but for the entire managing group of a major corp to not even talk about it enough to acknowledge the long term effects.......

 

[rsanter]

the problem is that it used to be that the schools would give the students a choice of the path to college or to a trade. on the trade side the students would learn the basics and the get into either a more advanced program or started an apprenticeship where they would be on the path to become what I would concider to be a 'professional' in that chosen trade.
then all of a sudden the system was changed to direct students to college or nowhere. somewhere along the line, our society has decided that you are only a professional if you went to college and that trade knowledge has low value.
I belive I am fortunate that my father was highly skilled at the trades and went to college. he knew some amazing people that I was able to hang around with and learn from that have forgotten more than I will ever hope to know

bob

 

[Coach James]

Spidergear, is the pay set by district or by the state in your state? Here the pay is the same statewide with local districts having the option to throw in a bit more. Here a teacher with 30 years and a masters makes $56,170. My district adds another 8% to that.

I can't imagine $40,000 in property taxes on a house. Our former senator and current Pres. candidate John Edwards is building himself a 29,000 square foot house(That's not a typo.). I don't think even his property taxes would be $40,000.

Coach

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

north carolina has a great tax advantage , but the pay scales are way lower than up north , the average price of a home in the nyc suburban town where I grew up , peaked out at 950k , these people make big bucks , NC is a low pay zone m hell in my bus garage , 55 k is first year probationary mechanic , which was a pay cut for me from the gm dealers up here , I moved to the south 5 years ago , I found it impossible to make money in the gm dealers I tried working in , I did good per local standards , but it is hard to take a 50% pay cut and a total lack of respect mechanics in the south get , and my wife is a stay at home mommy , after 9 months , I returned to the north m and the bank started rocking again ...all these corporations have set up shop in NC , because they take lower pay , like the when all the textile mills in new jersey closed due to union extortion , they moved to the south , when norma rae and all her outside agitator buddys organized , the moved to south of the border - then china

 

[Coach James]

Franz, I havn't read the A.E. article though I have often read the magazine. I had a subscription for several years and liked it a great deal. We don't have a teacher's union in this state and I wouldn't join one anyhow so I don't read much about them. Besides, the NEA doesn't represent the political views of most of the teachers that I know.

After just two weeks, the child's teachers all suggested the child be drugged? How many teachers does a 10 year old have in that state? In NC, they have just one. So did Mr. Big record the teacher saying the litle girl was genetically deficient? If he did, I would think the resulting settlement might pay for private school for the remainder of her years in school.

As to Ritalin, my experience has been that parents request it much more often than teachers. Once a kid gets a label such as BED, ADD etc they get an almost free pass through the school system. Not because of sorry teachers but because of federal regulations. Students labeled as "Exceptional Children"(formerly special ed) each have an IEP(Individual education plan) often with so many requirements that no teacher can meet them.

Federal law states that the individual teacher as well as the principal, superintendent and school board can be held liable for failing to meet the IEP requirements. Hence teachers often resist putting kids in the EC program while some parents almost demand it. Most of these kids can function fine without the IEP, but they learn they can be lazy as long as they have the EC label. My former school system spent $8,000 on reading software for one kid after the kid's mom filed a lawsuit against the district claiming her son's IEP wasn't being followed. His teachers were doing the best they could, but the kid was pure sorry and his mom saw every problem as someone else's fault.

I have taught several foster kids and they were all behind the majority of my other students. Not due to being mentally defective, but due to the lack of stability, constantly changing schools, apathetic foster parents etc.

In regards to the homework assignment sheet, had the child's teachers previously refused to send homework home in writing or had they not been asked to do so?

Lots of companies have socials once in a while. As long as they weren't leaving kids unattended, I'm not sure what the harm was provided it was a rare occurance.

That is truly a wonderful thing that the child has now been adopted by a loving couple and that she is doing so well in school. It's amazing what a child can do when they have stability, parents with high expectations that are active participants in the child's learning and lots of 1 on 1 practice at home. The little girl may never know how lucky she is to now be in the family she is in and the adopting parents are to be commended.

When I was in 3rd grade I was failing to learn my times tables. The teacher worked with me the best she could, but she couldn't devote all her attention to me as she had a room full of kids. My dad took note of my bad math grades and fixed the problem. He and I were taking an overnight trip to Petersburg to visit the battlefield.

Once we were in the car heading up I-95 he said "You know, we've got a few hours till we get to the battlefield. This would be a god time to practice your times tables." So for the next three hours he drilled me on my them. When we got to Petersburg, I knew them. So why didn't I learn them in school? I was lazy, the teacher didn't have three hours to spend just on me and she couldn't lock me in a car going 60mph up the interstate.

What is FOIL? I know it from algebra, but not otherwise.

Good for R in running for the board. I'm sure she'll put those lazy teachers in their place.

Coach

 

[jason96r]

I should take offense, to this - but unfortunately, I agree with it. I work with my hands because i like to... but some of my colleagues wouldn't be able to find their air filter without several days of technical training.

The other sad truth is that in some cases, it is actually cheaper to dispose of something than to actually fix it. Most of the time, it is the other way around. My brother has a MAC notebook an he cut into the power/charger cord. We went to an Apple store to see how much a new unit would be - $80! Needless to say, we went home and I spliced the cord back together for him. It ain't pretty, but it works and he still has his $80!

LOL same think kind of happened to my HP power cord wasn't broke but frayed and getting their now it has some electrical tape and duct tape on it. I'm in college now and have almost graduated and truly believe it is almost worthless, because for a BA and above for the most part you only learn book learnin and no common sense. That I feel is part of the problem everyone is too weak and good to do anything themselves, I have a BA in whatever I don't need to change the spark plug in my lawn mower. There is a weakening of America specifically the American male and I will not personally be a male that will be weakened.

 

[Coach James]

Spider, are you in New Jersey? Half my family is in South Jersey. I think dealer mechanics here start at ~$13/hour. The only blue collar making over $100,000 are the service/parts managers.

You're right about textiles down here. They are nearly dead. Our Dupont plant and the specialty textile companies are doing well, but the sock and underwear makers are going fast.

NC State's College of Textiles is booming, but those graduates are going into R&D, specialty textiles, or product development, not making undershirts.

Smithfield Foods has the world's largest hog processing plant about 45 minutes southeast of here. Average pay is ~$10/hour. The pay isn't great, but for unskilled workers, many without a HS diploma, it's not that bad. The commercial foods workers union is trying to unionize the workers there. If they succeed, those 6,000 jobs will probably travel to Mexico.

Coach

 

[jay50]

Franz, I havn't read the A.E. article though I have often read the magazine. I had a subscription for several years and liked it a great deal. We don't have a teacher's union in this state and I wouldn't join one anyhow so I don't read much about them. Besides, the NEA doesn't represent the political views of most of the teachers that I know.

After just two weeks, the child's teachers all suggested the child be drugged? How many teachers does a 10 year old have in that state? In NC, they have just one. So did Mr. Big record the teacher saying the litle girl was genetically deficient? If he did, I would think the resulting settlement might pay for private school for the remainder of her years in school.

As to Ritalin, my experience has been that parents request it much more often than teachers. Once a kid gets a label such as BED, ADD etc they get an almost free pass through the school system. Not because of sorry teachers but because of federal regulations. Students labeled as "Exceptional Children"(formerly special ed) each have an IEP(Individual education plan) often with so many requirements that no teacher can meet them.

Federal law states that the individual teacher as well as the principal, superintendent and school board can be held liable for failing to meet the IEP requirements. Hence teachers often resist putting kids in the EC program while some parents almost demand it. Most of these kids can function fine without the IEP, but they learn they can be lazy as long as they have the EC label. My former school system spent $8,000 on reading software for one kid after the kid's mom filed a lawsuit against the district claiming her son's IEP wasn't being followed. His teachers were doing the best they could, but the kid was pure sorry and his mom saw every problem as someone else's fault.

I have taught several foster kids and they were all behind the majority of my other students. Not due to being mentally defective, but due to the lack of stability, constantly changing schools, apathetic foster parents etc.

In regards to the homework assignment sheet, had the child's teachers previously refused to send homework home in writing or had they not been asked to do so?

Lots of companies have socials once in a while. As long as they weren't leaving kids unattended, I'm not sure what the harm was provided it was a rare occurance.

That is truly a wonderful thing that the child has now been adopted by a loving couple and that she is doing so well in school. It's amazing what a child can do when they have stability, parents with high expectations that are active participants in the child's learning and lots of 1 on 1 practice at home. The little girl may never know how lucky she is to now be in the family she is in and the adopting parents are to be commended.

When I was in 3rd grade I was failing to learn my times tables. The teacher worked with me the best she could, but she couldn't devote all her attention to me as she had a room full of kids. My dad took note of my bad math grades and fixed the problem. He and I were taking an overnight trip to Petersburg to visit the battlefield.

Once we were in the car heading up I-95 he said "You know, we've got a few hours till we get to the battlefield. This would be a god time to practice your times tables." So for the next three hours he drilled me on my them. When we got to Petersburg, I knew them. So why didn't I learn them in school? I was lazy, the teacher didn't have three hours to spend just on me and she couldn't lock me in a car going 60mph up the interstate.

What is FOIL? I know it from algebra, but not otherwise.

Good for R in running for the board. I'm sure she'll put those lazy teachers in their place.

Coach

IMHO, Children/adults today have ADD because when they were growing up, they were lacking in FIA (Foot-in-***) delivered by parent or guardian.
A good dose of USMC injected immediately after high school or around age 18 would have corrected the problem.

 

[PanelDeland]

My dad's ADD prescription.
(1) STOP!!!
(2) SIT DOWN!!!
(3) PAy Attention
(4) BELT OFF,BUTTWARM!!!!

Worked every time.

 

[crowldawg]

It all keeps me in business!
I got a perfectly good and almost brand new lawnmower from a guy throwing it out because it was only $150. $16.00 later and a new plastic carb and the thing was humming.I could go on and on

 

[jay50]

My dad's ADD prescription.
(1) STOP!!!
(2) SIT DOWN!!!
(3) PAy Attention
(4) BELT OFF,BUTTWARM!!!!

Worked every time.

Yep, that sure cured ADD in the ole days.

 

[drmarkr]

This is a great thread!!

I guess I'm a REAL anomaly....a 50 y/o doctor who works on anything with a motor, engine or wheels. I raced motorcycles professionally, worked in the local Honda shop for several years, and worked as a machinist for 4 years following that. All before going to college. Made college a piece of cake, really.

Re: technical classes. I took wood shop in the 9th grade. One of the best classes I had. Period. Every guy should have to take wood shop class for a year. And if they're not like I was and working after school with engines, they should have to take a engine shop class in high school also.

At this point in my life, I'm raising a family, racing moto (again) with my two teenage sons, have a shop full of bikes and woodworking gear. Lovin life. I'm a Medical Director for a local medicaid health plan, and any day I don't have meetings with "suits", I wear Carhartt's to work. And speaking of "suits", you ought to see the look on their faces when they shake my hand....it definitely ain't the girly skin they're used to feeling. More like grabbing some 60 grit.

Hell, I'm not sure where I'm going with this. Guess my biggest point is to do something you like in life, do it right and take pride in the product. Book learning might, in general, pull down more dollars, but it damn sure doesn't guarantee happiness.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all you folks!

MR

 

[strizzy]

Interesting thread, I don't feel nearly qualified to respond at all being out of HS for just over 4/5 years... Although I hated my experience at school; it was about performance on the tests (NY Regents/AP Courses - so the school could look better on paper no doubt), not whether or not 'you' knew the material in a way so that it could be applied.

I thank my parents for my success, not my education.

What is FOIL? I know it from algebra, but not otherwise.

Not sure where this was brought up but in algebra its:

FOIL: First Outside, Inside Last.

Used when you have quantities multiplied and/or divided by others/another.

 

[Franz©]

Coach, I think I gotta start with a SCOREBOAED so we can keep the players straight

JJ is the now 11 year old kid carrying damn near straight As
Big J is the adoptive Moma a parts manager in the local tractor dealer who knows everybody in town with a tractor.
R is the adoptive father- he's from Montana, where his dad was on the School Board, does some damn thing with computers I don't begin to understand, and ain't safe with a screwdriver.

Now, let me see if I can get all yer questions~
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Franz, I havn't read the A.E. article though I have often read the magazine. I had a subscription for several years and liked it a great deal. We don't have a teacher's union in this state and I wouldn't join one anyhow so I don't read much about them. Besides, the NEA doesn't represent the political views of most of the teachers that I know.

>> You're in a totally different part of the country then. Here and in Bama they have tenured teachers who work to contract and aren't responsible for a damn thing beyond showin up 160 days a year for 6 hours.

After just two weeks, the child's teachers all suggested the child be drugged? How many teachers does a 10 year old have in that state? In NC, they have just one. So did Mr. Big record the teacher saying the litle girl was genetically deficient? If he did, I would think the resulting settlement might pay for private school for the remainder of her years in school.
>> The clasroom had a Teacher and 2 assistants along with a reading teacher and a Math Coach who showed up for about 4 hours each per week. There are 28 students regularly in the room.
The brilliant statements by the Lead teacher and those who came to her aid are fully voice recorded, and have been transmitted via MP3 file to the County's adoption coordinator. Presently, the question is being sorted out of exactly who has standing as JJ's legal guardian for purposes of the pending action. Big J and R are taking the position that they really don't need the taxpayers money, and are perfectly willing to withhold filing any action as long as JJ gets a full and proper education, and certain "teachers" have absolutely no contact with JJ. The plan seems to be working, so far.

As to Ritalin, my experience has been that parents request it much more often than teachers. Once a kid gets a label such as BED, ADD etc they get an almost free pass through the school system. Not because of sorry teachers but because of federal regulations. Students labeled as "Exceptional Children"(formerly special ed) each have an IEP(Individual education plan) often with so many requirements that no teacher can meet them.

Federal law states that the individual teacher as well as the principal, superintendent and school board can be held liable for failing to meet the IEP requirements. Hence teachers often resist putting kids in the EC program while some parents almost demand it. Most of these kids can function fine without the IEP, but they learn they can be lazy as long as they have the EC label. My former school system spent $8,000 on reading software for one kid after the kid's mom filed a lawsuit against the district claiming her son's IEP wasn't being followed. His teachers were doing the best they could, but the kid was pure sorry and his mom saw every problem as someone else's fault.
> I'm quite conversant with the IEP dog and pony show as it runs in my local district, and it's damn near complete insanity as well as makework jobs for a lot of people in my book, that ain't really acheiving much.

JJ has been fully evaluated by an independant testing group, at State expense, thanks mostly to having a damn fine advocate working for her who is employed by Child Welfare. She came thru all testing shining like a star, no detectable defecits and no ADD or ADHD. She is a fairly bright kid who gets bored listening to the same **** being repeated adnauseum.

Personally I believe a lot of the BabySquirters purporting to be "parents" want to get their love trophy on drugs because they collect minimally $300/month for each and every drugged kid in their household. On top of that they can sell the kids drugs on the street.

I've personally observed a lot of 10 year old kids, and have come to the conclusion damn few of them don't know how to work the system. Kids are kids, and they will do what kids do. They all learn a hell of a lot more on the yellow bus than most folks give kids credit for, and they will try to use it.

I have taught several foster kids and they were all behind the majority of my other students. Not due to being mentally defective, but due to the lack of stability, constantly changing schools, apathetic foster parents etc.

In regards to the homework assignment sheet, had the child's teachers previously refused to send homework home in writing or had they not been asked to do so?

> When Big J brought JJ into school and registered her the school employee handed Big J a sheet of paper stating students would be provided Monday thru Friday with a homework sheet. Each "teacher" would suposedly, employ said paper to make certain each kid was not overburdened with homework while making assignments, and make apropriate notations on the sheet when homework was assigned. The kid was suposed to bring the sheet home as an indicator of assignments and due dates for said assignments. GUESS who never filled out homework sheets?
Lots of companies have socials once in a while. As long as they weren't leaving kids unattended, I'm not sure what the harm was provided it was a rare occurance.

That is truly a wonderful thing that the child has now been adopted by a loving couple and that she is doing so well in school. It's amazing what a child can do when they have stability, parents with high expectations that are active participants in the child's learning and lots of 1 on 1 practice at home. The little girl may never know how lucky she is to now be in the family she is in and the adopting parents are to be commended.
> JJ seems to know. For the first time in her life she has parents who give a damn, along with horses and dogs. She also has chores and responsibilitys to the family, and is adapting well to the new situation. I personally view her in some situations as 11 going on 8, and in others as 11 going on 25.
LN like to have gone nuts tryin to establish a communication path with her for a month last year. I told LN to quit talkin toJJ like she knew her for 10 years, and talk with her about bandit, JJ's favorite dog, and Hershey, her favorite horse, then ease into what she wanted to ask. Strangely it has worked well. Fortunately I have USA Datanet, so the phone call is only 2 bucks. I guess me bein in my third childhood works out well some times.

When I was in 3rd grade I was failing to learn my times tables. The teacher worked with me the best she could, but she couldn't devote all her attention to me as she had a room full of kids. My dad took note of my bad math grades and fixed the problem. He and I were taking an overnight trip to Petersburg to visit the battlefield.

Once we were in the car heading up I-95 he said "You know, we've got a few hours till we get to the battlefield. This would be a god time to practice your times tables." So for the next three hours he drilled me on my them. When we got to Petersburg, I knew them. So why didn't I learn them in school? I was lazy, the teacher didn't have three hours to spend just on me and she couldn't lock me in a car going 60mph up the interstate.

What is FOIL? I know it from algebra, but not otherwise.
>Abreviation for Freedom Of Information Law You can file for damn near any piece of information from a government agency, other than employee related informationIn NY we now play a clever game that allows the agency to furnish the information electronicly. It's just so fun the number of computer programs government agencys now furnins info in. The fun value goes down the crapper real quick when those info packages are run thru computers at places like Northrup Grumman..

Good for R in running for the board. I'm sure she'll put those lazy teachers in their place.

Oddly R's candidicy seems to be gaining a lot of support at the parts counter down at the tractor dealers. Seem to be a lot of farmers who ain't real happy with the Damn Yankee "teachers" misadministrators and ideas that got into the schools. Funny how that works.

Maybe I never should have taught Big J that thing about First they came for the Gipseys, but I wasn't a Gipsey, so I didn't care. Then they came for the jews, but I wasn't a Jew so I didn't care. Then they came for me, and there was nobody left to care.

I'm just hopeing Granny doesn't head South to help with the campaign.

 

[WVBrady]

Wow! Too many things for me to comment on. Let me just say that I have a BSEE and MSEE and taught math in middle school and high school for nine years between engineering jobs. When I was laid off at my last engineering job at age 56, I did not even consider going back into teaching, even though I was either unemployed or underemployed until I retired.

Coach: You are a large cut above most of the coaches that I have known.

Brady

 

[Merkava_4]

I don't buy any tools made in China. I'm just that way about tools though; I'll buy a shirt made in China if I have to.

 

[Coach James]

WVBrady, masters in EE is most impressive. A number of my former students have gone on to become engineers but mostly civil or mechanical. I think electrical E. scares many of them.

Not sure how you mean a cut above other coaches you've known. Could you explain?

Three years ago, a friend of mine retired from teaching high school math after 29 years. This year he decided to go back to work. He could easily have gotten a teaching job but wanted no part of it. He didn't apply for teaching jobs, but people had heard he was going back to work and three principals called and offered him teaching positions. He told them no thanks. He got a job as a daytime janitor at Wal Mart instead.

Coach

 

[WVBrady]

...Not sure how you mean a cut above other coaches you've known. Could you explain?...

It seems like you are genuinely interested in education, like Roger Mudd of the History Channel, rather than just coaching, . He said that he was a high school football coach who taught history. His present position indicates that he was genuinely interested in history, rather than it just being something that he had to teach. I basically learned all of my english grammar from our high school football coach. I had heard that he diagrammed football plays in class, but I never saw that. I even remember that he pointed out that I had correctly said that someone was "hanged", rather than hung.

Brady

 

[Franz©]

I've come to the position the current system purporting to be US public education is a total sham.

Shanker and his Union have done plenty to acheive the status quo, especially since he made the statement "when students begin paying union dues we will care about students". The dolts who eun for Board of Ed have little desire to accomplish anything other than pad their resume. The Politicians writing the laws will go with whoever pays them the most money. The situation has now run fully thru 2 generations, so the "parents" have no hope of understanding the ripoff that is occurring.

The few good teachers I have come across in the last 15 years have been ground into dust by their fellow employees for making the majority look bad.

Every damn school district in the nation has a nicely framed poster declaring their goal to make every student a life long learner, and does their damndest to supress learning so they can extrude multitudes of compliant basic industrial entry level workers. Unfortunately they can't even accomplish that any more.

Jefferson said the only way the experiment in democracy would function was with a well informed educated public. He was right! The government has evolved a very expensive system to get the US back to the point where it was at the beginning of World War II with 1/3 of the public virtually ilitterate.

This same discussion keeps recurring on nearly every web discussion forum where skilled people gather. We all know what is going on and we all hope to find a solution. We need to pull together and fight the system of Stupidity.

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

dumbing down the schools was a top priority of the communists in the 30s
mission accomplished

 

[Coach James]

Thanks for the kind words VW. I do care a great deal about education. It really bothers me to see so many of my colleagues working as hard as they can and still being told they're not doing good enough. The one thing always left out of debates on education is the responsibility of the students. They really don't have any. If they fail to learn, it's always the teacher's fault for one reason or another.

Always liked Roger Mudd. I always wished they would have made him the anchor instead of Liar Dan.

As to coaching, I only coached one year at the school where I taught. That was my first year and I had to agree to coach in order to get the teaching position. When I switched schools the next year, I told the administration I would not coach anything. I own a gymnastics school which is where I do my coaching now.

Coach

 

[Franz©]

""The one thing always left out of debates on education is the responsibility of the students. They really don't have any. If they fail to learn, it's always the teacher's fault for one reason or another.""

Well now Coach, I've heard that in one form or another from more people purporting to be teachers than I can count. I think we can both agree that Teach and Learn are opposite sides of a transaction. If we can, isn't there some superior obligation on the compensated teaching side of the equasion to facilitate an ability on the learning side to do just that? Or are you suggesting unless the student arrives preenabled to learn what the teacher is proffering the teacher has no obligation to instruct?

Are you suggesting a 5 year old arriving at the schoolhouse should be subjected to testing and prerequisites? I have absolutely no problem with the concept of kids repeating grades if they fail to pass year end testing, but I think we are going to have a tremendous backup around 2nd or 3rd grade.

The "teachers" of the Rochester NY district promoted 30% raises for themselves over the course of 6 years first by admitting their students weren't learning and claiming a 15% raise would enable them to solve the problem, and then getting another 15% raise 3 years later by rephrasing the promise to educate and graduate a higher percentage of incoming students. That system has now processed the incoming Kindergarten of the first year of the contract thru 13 years of academic attendance acheiving a Completion, not Graduation rate of 38%. The remaining students just fell off the planet evidently.

It's not just City schools either. A few years ago I was in a feed store that employed 3 fresh college bound HS grads. The problem came up of a customer buying 4 sacks of feedcorn withut barcodes. The price per sack was $3.25, and since no calculator was available the entire system ground to a halt. I just said 13 bucks, and they looked at me strangely. Then I asked if any of them knew what 4 x 3 was and one said 12. I then asked if they knew what 4 quarters amounted to and got the answer $1-. So you add 1 + 12, and what do you have? Oddly, the one who had previously announced he was going to Brockport State to become a History Teacher explained to the other 2 that the schools had taught math when I attended. By the way, he also stated he was going to become a teacher because he figured he'd only need to work 3 years and then repeat until he retired. I informed him he was in for a big shock in life.

 

[jay50]

dumbing down the schools was a top priority of the communists in the 30s
mission accomplished

Agree; dumb grads of public "Fool" system make damn good wage slaves for big business. If that doesn't work out they can always get on the "gov-ment" dole (Uncle Sams sugar ***)

 

[wilbilt]

A few years ago I was in a feed store that employed 3 fresh college bound HS grads. The problem came up of a customer buying 4 sacks of feedcorn withut barcodes. The price per sack was $3.25, and since no calculator was available the entire system ground to a halt.

No kidding.

And whatever happened to the practice of counting your change back to you? Nowadays, they just state the amount shown on the register and dump it in your hand.

I recently suspected I had been shorted $1 when receiving change. I asked the girl to count it back to me and I just got the "blink...blink" look.

I then demonstrated the process, and as she was retrieving the $1 bill from the register she had neglected to give me, she remarked "wow, that's really cool...so you know it's the right amount!"

It's like I had just taught her rocket science or something.

 

[Chris Adams]

Agree; dumb grads of public "Fool" system make damn good wage slaves for big business. If that doesn't work out they can always get on the "gov-ment" dole (Uncle Sams sugar ***)

Having worked for 'big business' for many years I have to ask
'What makes you think big businesses want idiots working for them?'

I had a half dozen 'training managers' who mostly just taught the basics that the public schools didn't bother to teach.

Finding and promoting people with practical skills and educations is often the primary function of a manager.


Blaming big business is helping and siding with the useful idiots who constructed this environment.
No company wants ignorant, feel good children working for them. Not one.

People are left ignorant by and for leftist governments.
They are the only beneficiaries of this end result.

People who suffer from too much self esteem are perfect leftist voters because they hate and resent everyone who can actually DO something.

They know it’s not their fault because they have such high self esteem, such self confidence.

Thus, when they fail because they can’t actually do anything useful it MUST be someone else’s fault.

Thus they hate, they protest, they resent. And best of all, they can’t effectively revolt.
But they can VOTE.

They are perfect pawns for the people who produced them in the first place.

 

[krusty the clown]

are we really blaming a "leftist" government because students in public schools aren't learning? a teacher can't make you learn....you have to want too. the no child left behind policy wasn't institued by a leftist/liberal! i would place the blame on several factors but mostly the fact that we have been forced into 2 person working families and no one is home raising the children, helping them to lean and teaching the values.

 

[eschoendorff]

are we really blaming a "leftist" government because students in public schools aren't learning? a teacher can't make you learn....you have to want too. the no child left behind policy wasn't institued by a leftist/liberal! i would place the blame on several factors but mostly the fact that we have been forced into 2 person working families and no one is home raising the children, helping them to lean and teaching the values.

Finally, someone gets it. the problem with the schools today isn't necessarily with the teachers or the student, but with the parents - who don't know how to be parents. BUT, you cannot tell them anything. And don't even get me started on administrators....

 

[Chris Adams]

are we really blaming a "leftist" government because students in public schools aren't learning? a teacher can't make you learn....you have to want too. the no child left behind policy wasn't institued by a leftist/liberal! i would place the blame on several factors but mostly the fact that we have been forced into 2 person working families and no one is home raising the children, helping them to lean and teaching the values.

You mean Teddy Kennedy’s No child left behind?
That’s silly.

The problems are endemic in the system.

They were there when I was 'learning' in school, back in the 60's.

But at least then the kids could usually read, do simple arithmetic and sometimes write legibly.

This has gone the way of the dodo.


The best educated people today are the home schooled. Also, despite the lies propagated by the teachers associations and their allies in the press, the best socialized are the home schooled.


The whole concept that a giant union of federalized employees should teach kids is ludicrous. And quite recent.

My Grandmother got as far as the 6th grade, all that was offered in the back country in her day, but her education was FAR superior to most college grads today.

My father dropped out of the 8th grade, and enlisted in the army. Something about Pearl Harbor…
He lied (like everyone else) about his age and went to war. But his education when he left was far superior to mine when I left school (3 semesters at Caltech).

My nephew is an actual rocket scientist’ works on Ion propulsion for orbital systems (things to make satellites go where you want).

But he didn’t get that education in regular school.

They wanted to convince his parents that he was ‘slow’ possibly ADA, possibly a touch of Autism.

I knew better and I helped paid his way into private school.
Turned out his IQ was well into genius. But the teachers didn’t really like that, didn’t understand him, hated that he was always asking questions. I had the same experience in school myself so I was able to recognize it.



Some places there are still good schools, some places there are good teachers and involved parents.

But I live in the educational wasteland that is California.


This is not an isolated problem. In the 31 states that had divisions of the company I worked for we found that most of our employees could not read simple directions, could not spell even enough to leave notes, and I don’t want to talk about math…

These were all high school graduates, most had at least some junior college.

Here in California I had teachers work for me.
If they left college before about 74 they had what I would consider a minimum practical education.
Those who got their degrees in the 80-90 eras were usually unable to compose a simple to do list, make a schedule, balance a check book or any of the other basic tasks needed to run a small retail outlet.

The college grads today, unless it is in hard science, are pretty near uneducated. Talk to some of them, ask some tough questions. Ask about ‘saving Africa’ and they will blither for hours, but ask how a light bulb works….

 

[wilbilt]

You mean Teddy Kennedy’s No child left behind?

The problem is more like "No Child Gets Swatted on the Behind".