Dream Lathe: 1943 Sidney

[ClappedOutBport]

Well like all days, some good with some bad.

Lets start with the good. A college friend said he had some aluminum he would sell for cheap, otherwise he was gonna scrap it. He said he had some rounds too. I wasn't expecting much, but as far as I'm concerned we hit the jackpot. We got about 260lbs of 6061 roundstock, ranging up to 5.5", about 190 lbs of 6061 plate, and some 1018 and a little bit of stainless. All for just over scrap price. Definitely in "you ****" territory. He had more sheet, but we got the stuff we really wanted and didn't want to spend much of any more. We barely had any aluminum before, and really no stock at all in the larger round department, which I tend to need a lot. Hopefully no more cutting rounds out of plate for me.

Now for more good. The bearings for the clutch were installed and it's pretty quiet. It works extremely well. We also got the seal installed where it was dripping oil, and got the new tapered roller bearing installed on the outer side of the input shaft. The nut had gotten loose and the bearing had been processing around somewhat causing uneven wear. Probably got some trash in there too. So we reinstalled the clutch (again!), filled it up with the 30 weight and gave it a test run.

Now for the bad:

First, the VFD is too small and blows the internal protection unless you are pretty ginger with the clutch. And that's without the 70lb chuck.

Second, it still drips out the input shaft and(!) comes out the spindle nose at higher speeds (starting at around 450 and really slinging out at 793). For the input shaft it had some slight damage to the seal area where it had worn out. So maybe we can sleeve it after pulling the clutch yet another time. For the spindle nose, there are two issues I could see.

#1, the drain from the tapered roller is blocked as someone somewhere suggested.

#2, the seal behind it which keeps splash out of the bearing is junk and allowing splash to enter. If that seal is dead, well for one, we have to strip the entire headstock, for two, we'll have to replace every seal and probably a lot of bearings, and for three, every bad seal will probably have ruined the shaft, as that seems to be the trend. And the book notes that it's a special seal, as if we needed more to compound the issue.

So I guess the first course of action would be to drain the oil again and poke around at the bearing drain, see it it's clogged. If not, then I guess we decide whether to run it slow and accept some drippage, or pull the headstock. Certainly that would be after the rest of the lathe is back together, we need bench space and would have to do it in one fell swoop. The bearing oil supply line could also be crimped off slightly, but at some risk to the bearing.

Anyone want to buy a 1943 Sidney?

 

[ClappedOutBport]

Well, dad and I decided today that we will have to do something we really don't want to: strip the entire headstock.

We were investigating the rear oil leak, stripped the clutch off in record time, and found that the seal was perfect. But we noticed that there was a missing grub screw which closed off the threaded removal hole for a blanking plate for one of the intermediate shafts. Doh! Simple fix though. It was an amazingly lucky coincidence though that the screw was out, because in shifting the drivetrain around we could see the end of the shaft whopping about by over 1/16". This is a high speed bearing tapered roller bearing, running at almost input shaft speed. So we settled on the fact that if one is that bad, we really have to investigate all of them. We also found the middle "bearing" on the spindle, which is a brass bushing, was sliding around and not tight in it's housing. I think I will knurl it and turn it back to size.

The good news is that I was able to get some more tig brazing done with no calamities. I got the new tig wrap on and didn't even have to regrind my tungsten! The water cooler will need a radiator and fan installed again someday, the water heats a little after a while. I barely had enough rod because the dufoids at our LWS sold us brass rod instead of silicon bronze. I had bitched at dad for sticking the wrong rod in the holder, but it wasn't even his fault. We've never bought a pound of brass so it had to be their mistake. I would have gotten the tailstock crack fixed as well if it weren't for having no rod.

This handwheel is now ready be cleaned up and tapped for the new spinner. Ideally it would have had a push in replacement like the original, but we couldn't beat a metric threaded one for $4. Doc I don't reckon you would like the factory handwheel since it is counterbalanced. I guess that is there to balance out your hand for sensitive drilling. It's certainly worse for quick retraction.

----------------

I used to think that no running, operating machine should be scrapped, but I have changed my opinion. We should have cut our losses a while back, though it still wouldn't be a bad time. We will have touched every single part and fastener by the time we are done. Replaced most every bearing. And it will still be a worn out lathe.

The Rockwell was supposed to get some badly needed maintenance this winter, but of course now that has been deferred. Doesn't help that dad is putting like 25 hours a week on it. We will probably need at least one lathe operational to fix it. It's got some bad bearings in the Reeve's drive and the headstock ones are on the way. Cross-slide screw is shot so the taper attachment doesn't really work. I think I'll modify it to be like Doc's Springfield. Always something that need's fixing.

 

[slowtwitch73]

Well you could go huge and send it off for a grind and learn how to scrape/recondition.

1943 was a looong time ago.

 

[larry_g]

Re spindle leak, is the gear head sealed? Is it vented and the vent blocked? If you fail to vent a gearbox it will pressurize when running and heating up causing the lube to force past the seals. Just a thought.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[ClappedOutBport]

Well you could go huge and send it off for a grind and learn how to scrape/recondition.

1943 was a looong time ago.

Eventually maybe. Gotta get it working first and get some investment back out of it.

Re spindle leak, is the gear head sealed? Is it vented and the vent blocked? If you fail to vent a gearbox it will pressurize when running and heating up causing the lube to force past the seals. Just a thought.

lg
no neat sig line

I can post the full spindle diagram if you'd like but basically it works like this.

The front spindle bearing is in its own separate little "box". It has its own oil supply and there is a seal on the spindle preventing splash from coming in. This oil runs out through a drain to join the rest of the oil. It is likely that that drain is partially occluded. The spindle itself has only "labyrinth" seals, which basically are like a bunch of levees for the oil to fight against. The is nothing sealing the gearbox from the air, so it can move freely in and out.

Anyway, it doesn't matter now, we will find the issue when we strip the head for rebuild.

 

[DocsMachine]

Doc I don't reckon you would like the factory handwheel since it is counterbalanced. I guess that is there to balance out your hand for sensitive drilling. It's certainly worse for quick retraction.

-While I'm not certain, I suspect you may find that few manufacturers used counterbalanced handwheels on tailstocks. Yours may have the balance weight for the same reason mine did- because it was originally a valve handwheel that had been adapted as a replacement.

One of the many machinist's tricks is to set the tailstock so that when the center is seated, the handle, acting as a weight, is on the "backside" of it's rotation, so that gravity helps pull it down, and thus keeps pressure on the center.

It's very common to accidentally set the wheel where the handle is on the near side to the operator, only for the operator to find his dimensions going wonky when the center backs out slightly and a thin part flexes away from the cut too much.

Not saying you should mill the weight off, and it may in fact be factory, but if it is, there's a reason they got rid of them all those years ago.

I used to think that no running, operating machine should be scrapped, but I have changed my opinion.

-Disagree. People are scrapping these things a lot faster than they're being built- Sidney, Springfield nor American haven't made very many lathes in the past half-century, you know.

I can, on the other hand, fully understand "more project than one is capable of, or has the time/money/space for". And in that case- in my opinion- for something like this, the project should be passed on to another poor unsuspecting schmu... I mean, lucky individual, rather than being scrapped.

Scrapped means destroyed. Passing it on to another- even if you have to take the hit on sunk cash and time and give it away- hopefully saves and preserves it.

I'm an old-iron nut. I have a soft spot in my head for these things.

Doesn't help that dad is putting like 25 hours a week on it.

-That right there tells me you need a bigger, more powerful lathe. Still doesn't mean you need that particular Sidney, but it does mean that if you get it back up to speed, even if not perfect, it'll "pay it's own way" to one extent or another.

Well you could go huge and send it off for a grind and learn how to scrape/recondition.

-Really, even a badly-worn machine can produce good work, if the machinist is paying attention. Yeah, a badly worn bed will cause havoc over long parts- like feet- but for most of us small shops, the average part is less than 6" long- the turned part, that is.

Even worn, that Sidney can do some good work. Really, the only reason I sent the bed of my Springfield off to be ground was I had the opportunity for very cheap shipping. ('Course that has since turned out to be quite the fiasco, but that's neither here nor there. )

Doc.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

-While I'm not certain, I suspect you may find that few manufacturers used counterbalanced handwheels on tailstocks. Yours may have the balance weight for the same reason mine did- because it was originally a valve handwheel that had been adapted as a replacement.

It's factory. Confirmed by looking at others.

One of the many machinist's tricks is to set the tailstock so that when the center is seated, the handle, acting as a weight, is on the "backside" of it's rotation, so that gravity helps pull it down, and thus keeps pressure on the center.

It's very common to accidentally set the wheel where the handle is on the near side to the operator, only for the operator to find his dimensions going wonky when the center backs out slightly and a thin part flexes away from the cut too much.

Not saying you should mill the weight off, and it may in fact be factory, but if it is, there's a reason they got rid of them all those years ago.

I'll keep that in mind and try to keep the weight on the far side. The lock does work pretty well unlike on the Rockwell.

-Disagree. People are scrapping these things a lot faster than they're being built- Sidney, Springfield nor American haven't made very many lathes in the past half-century, you know.

I can, on the other hand, fully understand "more project than one is capable of, or has the time/money/space for". And in that case- in my opinion- for something like this, the project should be passed on to another poor unsuspecting schmu... I mean, lucky individual, rather than being scrapped.

Disagree with your disagreement. This thing wouldn't be financially viable for most anyone to fix, even many years into the future. One would be much better off paying shipping charges for one in much better shape. I don't think I couldn't comfortably sell it for any more than scrap price in the shape it's in right now, even assembled.

-Really, even a badly-worn machine can produce good work, if the machinist is paying attention. Yeah, a badly worn bed will cause havoc over long parts- like feet- but for most of us small shops, the average part is less than 6" long- the turned part, that is.

Yeah I worry more about causing damage due to worn shafts, poor gear engagement, etc than wear causing part dimensions to be off. I've never had the luxury of having tight machines (except for the DP) so I'm pretty accustomed to dealing with it. I'm fairly certain I could do sub 0.001 on shorter parts even in the shape it's in.

 

[DocsMachine]

Disagree with your disagreement. This thing wouldn't be financially viable for most anyone to fix, even many years into the future.

-Disagree with your disagreement.

The fact is, there's rarely an old machine tool that' "financially viable" to fix. Even a common Logan or something, where parts are easy and common to find, unless you're doing a minor repair to an already-mostly-working machine, it'll almost always cost more than it's worth, especially if you're counting time and labor.

If you need a machine to make money on, you buy a new or good-working used machine, set it up, and go to work. If you can't afford such a machine, you either farm out that part of the work, get a loan for it (or some other way of coming up with the money) or don't accept that kind of work.

A machine like that Sidney, my Springfield and Turbo's Pacemaker are all far more "labor of love" than any kind of shrewd financial decision. The guy restoring the '69 Camaro isn't doing it because he needs cheap transportation, he's doing it because he likes cars and wants something cool.

Doc.

 

[Roberts210]

ClappedOutBP, you are understandably depressed about this. Doing all the work to get you this far, only to find these problems exist is a *****. Don't do anything right away. Sleep on this a little. Get involved in something else for a little bit. In time a solution will appear, but I agree--don't scrap it.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

-Disagree with your disagreement.

The fact is, there's rarely an old machine tool that' "financially viable" to fix. Even a common Logan or something, where parts are easy and common to find, unless you're doing a minor repair to an already-mostly-working machine, it'll almost always cost more than it's worth, especially if you're counting time and labor.

If you need a machine to make money on, you buy a new or good-working used machine, set it up, and go to work. If you can't afford such a machine, you either farm out that part of the work, get a loan for it (or some other way of coming up with the money) or don't accept that kind of work.

A machine like that Sidney, my Springfield and Turbo's Pacemaker are all far more "labor of love" than any kind of shrewd financial decision. The guy restoring the '69 Camaro isn't doing it because he needs cheap transportation, he's doing it because he likes cars and wants something cool.

Doc.

All true.

ClappedOutBP, you are understandably depressed about this. Doing all the work to get you this far, only to find these problems exist is a *****. Don't do anything right away. Sleep on this a little. Get involved in something else for a little bit. In time a solution will appear, but I agree--don't scrap it.

We're well too far along to scrap it. Luckily it doesn't seem as bad as it looks. Dad got the loose bearings on the intermediate shaft out, and I was wrong there. Someone has been into it before, and they left it loose. (Or the nut slipped.) The nuts are way down in there and it's nigh impossible to turn without a custom tool, so they used a chisel. The bearings weren't actually that bad, but they do have small lines of corrosion from when the machine sat (outside probably) for a long time. All the bearings have looked this way, so it's probable that the spindle bearings are too. Dad has new bearings on the way for this shaft.

The brass bushing is keyed, so it hasn't spun like I thought it had. Just a slip fit, so it can move around slightly along with the whole gear stack. So, the only other reason to pull the spindle be for cleaning and poking at the spindle drain. Hopefully it will clear up, or we can reduce the flow to the bearing I guess. Dad said it was getting better and only really did in high gear, so we'll see.

We also found one wiggly drivetrain gear which ran up against the loose shaft, but it’s just going to have to deal with it for now.

To solve the problem of tightening up the nuts, I made a few custom tools. I’m starting to get a small collection custom Sidney tools now haha.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

Well, remember that nasty tailstock crack? I also finally got that taken care of Sunday.

I had intended to tig braze it all along and ground out a huge amount of material about a month back. About 90% of the way through at the front, and tapered off until the crack disappeared. I was having a lot of trouble with tig reliability, gas getting low, LWS sold us the wrong rod, etc, so it sat for about a month just eating away at me.

But finally, everything lined up and I got around to getting it done and it went very well. I started by heating the casting on the woodstove to about 280F. I would have liked a bit more but that’s’ a good start. Then I went at with the tig, laying pass after pass. I had intended to take my time and cool it between passes, but I was in a rush and probably did well more than I should have between cooling sessions with the air gun. The localized area got up to about 600F at times.

I got it all done, using about 1/3LB of rod, and put it back on the stove too cool overnight. I heard at least one small tink as the surface layer cracked near the back of the gouge, but dad ground it off and it appears to be holding well. I’m sure there is a lot of tension built up, this stuff pulls hard, unlike O/A braze. Still, assuming it holds up, I’m extremely pleased with how it came out and just how much material is there, unlike just a surface-level fix. Total cost was about $6 counting rod, gas and electricity.

I only had one more Tig calamity, which was that the HF start went out right as I started, but that doesn’t really bother me. Dad got a new auto-dark hood which helped a lot.

Maybe after another 10lbs of brazing I'll start to get good with this stuff.

 

[Roberts210]

Excellent!

 

[Cahark]

Re: Disaster Lathe: 1943 Sidney

The repair and work Are looking great.

Hang in there. I’m sure this machine has seen plenty of hammer and chisel mechanics over the years. I know most of my machines have, that’s for sure. Whenever I run into these frustrating repair situations I think about what it would cost to replace the machine with a new one. That usually gets me back into repair mode pretty quick! Haha.

Keep up the good work. I’ll be watching for more updates.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ClappedOutBport]

A relatively quick turn-around on the tailstock and it makes the first chips!

Last weekend dad and I got the new bearings in and this weekend we got the headstock put back together. No leaks out of the back now. The spindle still dribbles a bit out of the labyrinth in high gear only, but it's gotten better, so hopefully the schmutz will keep coming out of the partiall occluded drain. The rear spindle bearing (ironically the one that wasn't getting oiled) sounds quiet, but the front has a low grumble. I think it will suffice though. The whole thing has a lot of gear noise, but I think being on casters amplifies it some. It will never be a quiet machine though, unfortunately.

On the tailstock, Dad turned the handle until it cleaned up which put a significant flat spot in it, but it actually feels pretty nice. We used a cheap, Chinese spinner that is threaded in. The acme nut was flipped around to have the best threads on the outside. It will probably still get a new screw and nut eventually but it works for now. Dad only got one thrust bearing, so there is only one on the inside currently. I'm trying to decide what's best of for the outer thrust bearing. It doesn't see a lot of load, but subject to shop dust, open balls/rollers seems like a bad idea. Maybe just a bronze washer? We currently have a ~3/4" little steel piece dad turned up. I may move it to the inside to get that extra 3/4" of extension, as it retracts well into the housing. It only retains an inch of thread in the nut up to 6" of extension right now, and I'd like the full 7. I'll ether need a longer acme nut, or to move the screw out, or both. We also got a third clamping bolt for it, so it's good there.

Although it's way low and needs shimming, but it was good enough to make a little test hole. I was way aggressive on my feed, I'm not used to having this sort amount of pressure. It'll certainly be a good hole dozer, hopefully a little more than that.

The current state of the machine: Needs a second coat of paint on some of the sheetmetal, and all the missing bits, but it's looking more complete. Hopefully the clutch cover can stay on, I've now pulled the clutch 4 times.

 

[ddawg16]

OUTSTANDING f'ing work...............

Observation......this thread is proof positive our country does not always need college educated 'can't turn a wrench' workers.

The trades are a dying trend. I'd like to see a 'suit' even be able to turn on that lath.

Clapped....it's obvious your working on your degree.....I'm guessing mechanical. When you're done....you will be the exception...you will have the education and 'hands on' experience that most guys don't have.

We really need to have more trade education back in our schools.

My dad had a BA degree from the Univ of FL. Also had his private pilots license and flew a piper cub. But, he was a mechanic. Had his own gas station. Why? Because I liked being his own boss and wrenching on cars. I was pumping gas at the age of 5. I miss that man.

As for the blue.....Buick guy? You could have also gone green. Blue is fine.....

 

[ClappedOutBport]

OUTSTANDING f'ing work...............

Observation......this thread is proof positive our country does not always need college educated 'can't turn a wrench' workers.

The trades are a dying trend. I'd like to see a 'suit' even be able to turn on that lath.

Clapped....it's obvious your working on your degree.....I'm guessing mechanical. When you're done....you will be the exception...you will have the education and 'hands on' experience that most guys don't have.

We really need to have more trade education back in our schools.

My dad had a BA degree from the Univ of FL. Also had his private pilots license and flew a piper cub. But, he was a mechanic. Had his own gas station. Why? Because I liked being his own boss and wrenching on cars. I was pumping gas at the age of 5. I miss that man.

As for the blue.....Buick guy? You could have also gone green. Blue is fine.....

Thank you. I'm flattered.

Correct, mechanical engineering. Almost done, I'm in my 4th/5th year.

I am a big proponent of trade schools. I considered going to one. It's not just today's students fault though. When I was in high school, you could tell the administrators and counselors heavily frowned upon anything but a college education. The schools get some of their funding from college entrance rates it seems. I could tell I was pushed hard away from trade schools, though I tried to ignore their influence. I took a machine shop class my senior year of HS and got discovered that the tech principle and county superintendent were in cahoots to shut down the vocational school. They wished to redirect the money to the home schools as well as I can reckon. After I left, they sent 2nd and 3rd years off to a local college instead of using the two nice HAAS cncs that they had (just for second and third years), and few wanted to do that so they quit. Without having second and third years, the program isn't practical to run, and they acted as mentors for the first years. I'd bet that class is gone by now, and the rest will be soon to follow. Disgusting if you ask me.

In the end I think college was the right choice, but I absolutely intend to machine, weld and fabricate on the side, whether for my own hobbies or for side income.

I try to rep my hands on experience as much as I can, but it doesn't seem to have a huge effect as far as getting jobs. HR people seem more concerned that I can answer their dumb questions and that I've worked at some entry level job more than the fact that I've been building up a tremendous knowledge base about how things are built, fixed, and repaired. Aw well. No shortage of jobs where I live when I have my degree.

No, no buick fans here. I have a little BMW. Blue was just a color that both dad and I could agree on. The red is pretty gaudy, I won't lie. It looked better in our heads. Probably should have done a dark/light gray mix like Doc Nickle, or Michael Muha.

 

[ddawg16]

Thank you. I'm flattered.

Correct, mechanical engineering. Almost done, I'm in my 4th/5th year.

I am a big proponent of trade schools. I considered going to one. It's not just today's students fault though. When I was in high school, you could tell the administrators and counselors heavily frowned upon anything but a college education. The schools get some of their funding from college entrance rates it seems. I could tell I was pushed hard away from trade schools, though I tried to ignore their influence. I took a machine shop class my senior year of HS and got discovered that the tech principle and county superintendent were in cahoots to shut down the vocational school. They wished to redirect the money to the home schools as well as I can reckon. After I left, they sent 2nd and 3rd years off to a local college instead of using the two nice HAAS cncs that they had (just for second and third years), and few wanted to do that so they quit. Without having second and third years, the program isn't practical to run, and they acted as mentors for the first years. I'd bet that class is gone by now, and the rest will be soon to follow. Disgusting if you ask me.

In the end I think college was the right choice, but I absolutely intend to machine, weld and fabricate on the side, whether for my own hobbies or for side income.

I try to rep my hands on experience as much as I can, but it doesn't seem to have a huge effect as far as getting jobs. HR people seem more concerned that I can answer their dumb questions and that I've worked at some entry level job more than the fact that I've been building up a tremendous knowledge base about how things are built, fixed, and repaired. Aw well. No shortage of jobs where I live when I have my degree.

No, no buick fans here. I have a little BMW. Blue was just a color that both dad and I could agree on. The red is pretty gaudy, I won't lie. It looked better in our heads. Probably should have done a dark/light gray mix like Doc Nickle, or Michael Muha.

I'm a controls engineer.......I automate factories (by day)....my night time activities are a bit different.....and if you check out the links in my signature you will see I can do other things...........

A few years ago we were interviewing for an engineer......combination of mechanical and electrical.

Interviewed one guy....nice grades....EE degree. Had been out about 1.5 years....was still looking to land a job. Never did any internships. I asked him what his hobby was (I know, not supposed to ask that kind of ****). He said Astronomy. So I said "So, you've built your own telescope?". He replied "Oh, heavens no, I would never try that." So much for him.

The next guy...same question....response..."I like to rebuild old motorcycles". He got the job.

Nothing worse than electronics engineers who don't know how to use a simple f'ing mulitmeter.

Last week we had some 'calibration' people in to verify the cal on some of our DAU's. I asked him "You know how to use these Keithely's?" He said yes. I ended up doing most of the work. At least he knew how to use his Fluke calibrator.

 

[jabberwoki]

The lathe is looking really nice, I`m glad your sticking with it.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

I'm a controls engineer.......I automate factories (by day)....my night time activities are a bit different.....and if you check out the links in my signature you will see I can do other things...........

I have a lot of respect for systems engineers. I'm sort of a intro to systems engineering class (system dynamics) and it's kinda kicking all of our butts.

The lathe is looking really nice, I`m glad your sticking with it.

Thanks Jabberwoki.

 

[ddawg16]

I have a lot of respect for systems engineers. I'm sort of a intro to systems engineering class (system dynamics) and it's kinda kicking all of our butts.



Thanks Jabberwoki.

Hang in there....stuff like that is kinda tough if you don't already have the hardware background.

It was easy for me because I was in the AF....got some good training in electronics.....and grew wrenching.....

 

[Pressingonward]

I'm also a mechanical engineer. Started out as an auto mechanic then went back to school for engineering when I could afford it (sort of afford it anyways).

I remember one day in our physics class we were learning about moments and the teacher passed around a torque wrench. One of the students (who had top grades) had clearly never seen such a woundrous thing before, and spent a few minutes looking at it from every possible angle. It really struck me then just how inexperienced some of my classmates truly were. Not to say they didn't end up as good engineers (I have no idea whether they did or not), but I'm sure the road to get there had a few extra bumps.

The hands-on experience pays dividends when you're working on a project and can think about things from multiple perspectives - designer (does it do what it's supposed to do according to the spec?), assembler (DFM/A - how hard/expensive is it to build the thing? How likely is the assembler to put it together inside-out and backwards?) end consumer (does it look cool? Is it a pain to use? How well does it hold up to daily wear and tear?), and maintenance/repair man (if it breaks, how hard is it to fix? Can I actually fit a socket or a wrench on that bolt?). Getting the design optimized right out of the gate for all of those things is what separates a good, experienced engineer from an inexperienced (or bad) engineer. The hands-on experience gets you there much faster from what I've seen.

I'll quit rambling now. Nice job bringing that lathe back to life!

 

[86turbodsl]

You hit the nail on the head right there. There's a TON of engineers out there that have no practical experience outside of books, and they tend to give us a bad name. I can't even remember all the times i've gotten rolled eyes when people find out you're an engineer, they just assume you're book smart / street stupid.

Polymaths are not all that common.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

Well Corona virus has shut down campus (but not classes) but I've had a little extra time to get stuff done and spent Fri-Mon pretty diligently working on it. Here's what we got done.

So lets see: Saddle was filthy even after two cycles of pressure washing and degreasing

Cleaned:

And the oil grooves recut with a dremel

The top side was in surprisingly good shape. No damage to the casting itself, just wear. There is one little issue though. Due to the wear, the tailstock vee way has just started to touch, or will soon. Less than 5 thousands of clearance if there is any. So, I can either relieve it to clear, or add way wipers and an oil hole and let it be a bearing surface. Obviously there is some reason why lathes don't normally ride on all 4 ways, but I don't quite know why. An obvious answer would be that it would be over-constrained having more than one vee. But it already rides on two vees, so it's already over-constrained. It's also unusual in that it rides on the tailstock flat way as well, which gives it a whole lot more rigidity IMO.

I also worked on the coolant pump. The PO lost the original, but dad had this little sump pump laying around. I made some covers.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

Dad had slowly been cleaning and painting the steady over the past bit too. Nothing really wrong with it, just needed a refresh. The top finger has been broken and brazed. Dad ground it smooth, which I wouldn't have since it doesn't look they they vee'd it at all. Hopefully it won't break again, not much pressure on it. This also shows how much wear it's got, the ends of the fingers are supposed to be flat.

I really like the clamp block design, pretty sturdy.

One of my headstock handles that I brazed too cold broke again, but dad did a bang up job torch brazing it this time. He's getting better. Perfect little fillet in there now.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

Today we got the apron stripped. Getting the main handwheel off was the biggest fight. 3 inch press fit with 80 years of rust. Had to use a puller and rosebud.

Lots going on in there. Everything inside is oiled by the pump, so theoretically it should last basically forever. Unfortunately, they weren't using the pump and instead has packed things with grease. There is some wear, but I don't think anything has enough to require replacement. Nothing is broken inside. The rack engagement gear was welded on, looking like some redneck repair, but it turns out that's factory. The manual shows no key.

There are quite a few little needle bearings I don't know how to properly clean. We might have to investigate getting an ultrasonic cleaner for those little guys.

 

[86turbodsl]

Man, nice job cleaning. I'm a little surprised your steady doesn't have bearings. Rides right on the fingers? Seems like a lot of friction there. Try immersion in lye/water on the greasy parts. As long as there's no light metals there, it does a bang up job cleaning. If there is light metal, don't leave it long in the bath. It'll etch and eventually erode it out. I will still do stuff with aluminum inserts, but it's watched closely and only minutes, not hours.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

Man, nice job cleaning. I'm a little surprised your steady doesn't have bearings. Rides right on the fingers? Seems like a lot of friction there. Try immersion in lye/water on the greasy parts. As long as there's no light metals there, it does a bang up job cleaning. If there is light metal, don't leave it long in the bath. It'll etch and eventually erode it out. I will still do stuff with aluminum inserts, but it's watched closely and only minutes, not hours.

Lie bath would be nice, but we're a bit far along to bother with building a tank now. The safety clean does a pretty good job. I have yet to find a single piece of Aluminum on this entire lathe, so I think we're ok there.

Yeah, most of the smaller steady rests seem to be like that. Honestly, I prefer them, I worry too much about getting chips in the rollers.

The pacemaker 16 bulletin shows both types, stating that the ball bearing is for carbide tool machining speeds. I may build them up with some silicon bronze if they wear too fast.

 

[86turbodsl]

Re: Disaster Lathe: 1943 Sidney

I just use a plastic wash basin. Suspend the heater from a stick. I use a water heater element.

Sent from my LG-TP450 using Tapatalk

 

[jabberwoki]

That's my next task on the Rivett, taking the apron off. I'm not looking forward to . Freaking out about effing it up.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

That's my next task on the Rivett, taking the apron off. I'm not looking forward to . Freaking out about effing it up.

IDK about your mechanical abilities, but the manual is certainly a friend. We were having trouble getting the back wall off, consulted the manual, and found that there was a shaft holding it on. Looks like the Rivett has quite a detailed diagram on the apron, that should be very helpful. Taking it slow and stopping when you encounter resistance and you should be ok.

 

[DocsMachine]

I'm a little surprised your steady doesn't have bearings. Rides right on the fingers? Seems like a lot of friction there.

-That's extremely common. Rollers were actually a fairly recent development.

One, the steady was usually used with long, heavy shafts that weren't turned fast, especially back in the pre-HSS days.

Two, rollers can let chips get caught underneath and "pressed" into the workpiece. That can cause significant problems if you're running the steady on a surface that's already turned to size.

And three, generally speaking the rollers won't have the load capacity for larger shafts, as a flat surface. No big for a home-shop guy with a little motor shaft, but with a bigger lathe and 300-pound workpiece? Starts being an issue.

The steady for my Sheldon has little bearings as rollers- the previous owner fitted those, and they work just fine. But the steady for my Springfield doesn't- it has badly worn fixed fingers like those shown here. I'll likely either make new fingers, or maybe braze a big glob of silicon bronze on the ends and face 'em back down.

Doc.

 

[dutchgray]

Probably worth making a set of fingers with some decent bearings on the end for when you want to run high rpm with the steady.
Bearings definitely don't survive high loads as well.
If you watch userwl2850 on YouTube you can see he uses a steady with two roller fingers but a plain finger for the top one as the top finger takes the cutting load.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

-That's extremely common. Rollers were actually a fairly recent development.

...or maybe braze a big glob of silicon bronze on the ends and face 'em back down.

Idk if I'd say recent, seems like American and others were offering rollers back in the 40s. But like you say, I tend to prefer fixed fingers as they don't mash chips in, and I don't have enough gasket paper to make a guard for every possible diameter like Adam Booth.

Silicon Bronze is my plan as well if they don't hold up.

Probably worth making a set of fingers with some decent bearings on the end for when you want to run high rpm with the steady.
Bearings definitely don't survive high loads as well.
If you watch userwl2850 on YouTube you can see he uses a steady with two roller fingers but a plain finger for the top one as the top finger takes the cutting load.

I'll certainly see if it's a problem first. I don't have much horsepower (relatively for a lathe this size), but plenty of rigidity, so I can take heavier, slower cuts. Probably no more than 200SFM. And as said above, they can always be bronze tipped, which should handle the speed better.

 

[DocsMachine]

Idk if I'd say recent, seems like American and others were offering rollers back in the 40s.

-I suppose I was thinking "recent" from a home-shop perspective. The stock steady (and follow) rests for my Sheldon (circa 1956) were plain, and even today, most of the Asian import lathes come with plain tips. (Factory rollers can be seen on Grizzly's "Gunsmith" lathe offerings, for example.)

Doc.

 

[EngineerNate]

Gotta chime in here as a fellow engineer. If I were the hiring manager, showing me these pics would go a long way to getting you the job over the next guy. Great work so far and keep at it.

 

[EngineerNate]

Re: Disaster Lathe: 1943 Sidney

Updates?

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[ClappedOutBport]

Corona virus epidemic has been messing me up a bit. But yes, I've got a big one. Probably tomorrow. Takes me a few hours to make all my updates and I'm smoked today.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

So yeah, I promised a big update. But it's only slighty about the Sidney. Truth is almost nothing has been done to it. In addition to me be being away from it for a few weeks dad managed to get himself a few new projects. One of which, you guessed it, is another lathe. Yep. Not what we needed right now, but I can't says I blame him. For the price he got on the package deal he could have dumped the lathe off right at the scrapyard and done ok. This one isn't too much of a project though, it's a pretty low hour Republic Lagun 14x40.

Unloading went very smoothly. Starting to get good at this sort of thing after doing it so much.

The good:

• Tight, in pretty good shape, shouldn't be a restoration project at all. Cleaning, maintenance, minor repair and not much else and it should good to go.
• Metric threading
• 7HP motor
• Oilbath headstock, QCGB, apron, and rod support.
• D1-6 spindle, MT4 tailstock
• Decent 8" 3 jaw chuck
• Has a 5c collet closer
• Coolant
• Has splash guards

The eh:

• Nylon change gears
• Gap bed

The bad:

• No steady
• Someone removed all 8 way wipers. We will have to source new ones.
• Motor is a 2 speed motor, so if it's like all 2 speed motors I've seen, you lose half power in low speed.

The ugly:

• 7HP seems a bit much for such a small lathe. Probably because it is. A small gear on the input shaft is complete destroyed, knocking out 1/4 of the range. It eliminates the 40, 80, 245 and 490 speed options. Add the 2 speed motor in, and you only have 6 speeds at full power. 120, 200, 330, 750, 1250, and 2000.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

FAQ
Why is this in a thread about a Sidney lathe? Well obviously it has considerable implications for the Sidney. For one, the Lagun is where the Sidney was slated to go, so now it has to go elsewhere in an already squeezy shop. Second, a 7.5HP RPC came along with the lathe. So now we have to build an electrical cabinet for the Sidney and figure out how to wire up reversing contactors and whatnot. Should be fun. Being that they share the spindle mount, tailstock taper, all accessories will be shared meaning that chucks and stuff have to work for both machines.

What role will the Sidney play now if the lagun is faster, quieter, tighter, more powerful, swings more in gap, etc? Why even keep it? The Sidney has a few advantages still. It's got a steady, it's better for large drilling, it threads down to 1.5 TPI, it has a leadscrew reverse, it turns 14 inches longer, and swings larger out of the gap. We'll be less conscious about using the Sidney for dirty work like cast iron or welding. It also has 16 real speeds instead of 6. If we didn't already have it we certainly wouldn't go and get it, but we're not likely to get rid of it and lose all of our sweat equity.

What role will the Rockwell 10x36 play now? Why keep it? Well the rockwell has two excellent chucks: a 6" buck 6 jaw, and an 8" buck 4 jaw which we have no replacements for yet. Once we have some suitably high quality chucks for the big lathes, we can probably let this one go and pay for both of the big lathes since it's in quite nice shape.

What is your plan for chucks now? Since the 4 jaw is totally clapped? Well I wanted to get like a 16" 4 jaw, but now I'd rather have a nice one that works for both lathes. The Lagun also came with an unfinished backplate, which is making those brand new $150 Toolmex 12" 4 jaws up in Ohio look mighty tempting, especially if we could get someone to haul it a bit closer. They also have 16"ers for $225, but the jaws look sort of anemic and we'd still need something for the lagun, so I think 12" it is. We'll keep an eye out for a 10" or so 6 jaw somewhere along the time but the 3 jaw will do for now.
Similar story on toolposts. We were looking at doing a CA, but we'll probably end up with the same toolpost on both lathes so that holders can be shared. Just isn't cost effective otherwise. The bodies would be shimmed so that tools are always on height in both lathes.

 

[dutchgray]

Nice new lathe, I think you'll end up fixing the broken gear and looking for about a 5hp motor to make it "right" in time.
Better not buy a 4th lathe though, even if its very cheap.