Early Disston Hand Saws

[AntiqueBen]

Hi All,

I occasionally see the mention of Disston Hand Saws on GJ here & there, so I thought I would start an official thread dedicated to early Disston saws. I'm not really a hand saw buff, but when I'm out on a tool hunt I know enough about them to recognize an early model. A couple years ago I got lucky & ran into this beauty. I bought it for a few reasons. The early handle construction, the split nuts, the older Disston medallion (sons not mentioned yet) & the little nib on the top of the blade at the end. According to the Disstonian Institute, the medallion dates 1860. There's just one thing I'm not sure of. Instead of the blade being marked Disston, it has an English Hallmark & is stamped "M. Hargreave Sheffield Warranted Cast Steel." The blade measures 26" long. I read on Disston's website that from 1840-1855 Disston used/brought over English blades until he started making his own steel. I guess during that time English steel was known to be superior. Any Disston buffs out there that can shed some light on this??

 

[RTM]

Not gonna argue with the Disstonian. He's my go to source for any vintage saw information. (FYI, That's not a Disston site, a private party put that together, from various catalogs and other period literature)

Not that the English was known to be superior, it was the only game in town for a long period of time. There weren't any steel rolling facilities is what I thought I heard.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Looks like Disston started making his own steel in 1855 but didn't advertise it until a tariff halted steel from being imported during the Civil War. I guess this gave him an edge on his business.

Online Reference of Disston Saws -- No.7 and D7 Models

identifying and dating disston saws

www.disstonianinstitute.com

 

[four.cycle]

Disston / Henry Disston & Sons, Inc., P.O. Box T-1537, Philadelphia, PA / http://americanmadefiles.blogspot.com/search/label/Disston (Henry Disston and Sons) / http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgIndex/detail.aspx?id=255 /

check backsaw.net as well - pretty good site on saw stuff.

ITCL has a mess of Disston material available.

 

[Cleave]

Very nice saw. I have a few Disston saws, and have restored and sharpened them. Disstonian Institute is a great resource. My oldest is probably only 100 years old or so, but now I know what to look for.

 

[kwigly]

Nice looking saw. I'd say it was a Hargreaves saw that has had a Disston medallion (maybe a whole handle) added to it, as as-far-as-I-know there is no direct connection between the two firms which operated in different countries. Early Disston made saws followed the style of English saws, but the blades were stamped with his own name and Disston was not known to re-badge English stamped saw blades

 

[RTM]

. I'd say it was a Hargreaves saw that has had a Disston medallion (maybe a whole handle) added to it, as as-far-as-I-know there is no direct connection between the two firms which operated in different countries.

Scary way to verify this is to pull the handle off, and see if you have multiple penetrations for saw nuts. Scary cuz you may break the nuts, which would be a tragedy.

I personally would leave the mystery.

 

[AntiqueBen]

I do know from taking it apart once after I got it that there are only one set of holes. Don't know if I want to risk it again. Apparently Disston did acquire tools & machinery when who he worked for went out of business. Compensation for back pay. I'm guessing these tools would have been to make these in the "English" way. He even imported workers from the Sheffield district. Question is, where did the blades on his first saws come from until he made his own in 1855? So could it be possible he used Hargreave blades until he could make his own steel in 1855? He had the tools to make the rest of the saw. Having the English Sheffield connection was to his favor. Any thoughts on this theory??

 

[kwigly]

Lots of early US sawmakers used English steel plate to make their saw blades, and stamped their blades with their own names, but I haven't heard of any importing completed English pre-stamped blades and then re-badging them with their medallions. Not to say that this couldn't have happened. All the early Disston saws with your medallion that I have heard of have a Disston stamped blade.

 

[AntiqueBen]

I found another interesting article about Disston's early history. He brought in all his steel from Sheffield until he started making his own in 1855. Even then, he didn't stop importing from Sheffield completely until he moved his saw works to Tacony in the 1870's due to the fire that almost destroyed everything in 1864. I just wander in the first years of his business, until he got his process down, if he may have used his Sheffield connections to his advantage. I've been looking online & I cannot find another "W. Hargreaves" stamp on a saw like mine? I see a Hargreaves & Smith Co. They mostly did knives & cutlery. This company was started though by William Hargreaves. It would be nice to see a pic of an 1840's Disston saw & it's markings.

 

[AntiqueBen]

I found the page on the Disstonian Institute that shows the early stampings. The blades were stamped up to 1860. In 1865 he started etching his saw blades. It was curious to see a few of the stamps. One had the words "London Spring" on it & another one had a German steel stamp on it. Looks like he used a few options before 1855.

 

[RTM]

I googled Hargreave Disston, didn't get many hits of value besides this post. Will dig harder later, but not a high sign right now. Got interrupted by work.

 

[kwigly]

my Hargreaves saw with a somewhat similar blade etch to yours http://www.backsaw.net/forum/index.php?threads/wm-hargreaves-co.1131/

 

[AntiqueBen]

Sorry, it wouldn't let me bring up your pics What do you know about W. Hargreaves & Co?

 

[kwigly]

My understanding is that Hargreaves started out as a merchant and table knife manufacturer in the 1840s but didn't branch out into saws until later. (Became Hargreaves Smith & Co 1884)
My blade stamp is very light and doesn't photograph well. I've deciphered it to read "W Hargreaves & Co" in an arc over "Spring Temper", over a curved "Sheffield", all flanked by "Warranted" and "Cast Steel", and with three crowns. I'd guess it dates to the 1860s/1870s period, perhaps later. (Picture of the handle).
You have a nice saw. But the reason I suspect your saw medallion is not an original pairing with your saw blade is that your Disston medallion reportedly dates to the 1860s, differs from Disstons earlier designs for medallions, and was therefore made many years after Disston started producing saws with Disston blade stamps. It seems unusual that he would sell a saw with his latest medallion, but with someone else's blade stamp

 

[Project 2501]

The green handled pruning saw is something that I've yet to see anywhere else. Of the dozen or so Disston saws I have, the green pruning saw and the thumbhole ripsaw pictured with it are my two favorites.

 

[pfaustus]

I've had two "Henry Disston" stamped split nut hand saws. One I know I sold, the other is who knows where. Both were stamped in the middle of the blade where yours says "Hargreaves". I'm inclined toward the "medallion not original theory". But, who knows?

 

[calandrod]

Hi All,

I occasionally see the mention of Disston Hand Saws on GJ here & there, so I thought I would start an official thread dedicated to early Disston saws. I'm not really a hand saw buff, but when I'm out on a tool hunt I know enough about them to recognize an early model. A couple years ago I got lucky & ran into this beauty. I bought it for a few reasons. The early handle construction, the split nuts, the older Disston medallion (sons not mentioned yet) & the little nib on the top of the blade at the end. According to the Disstonian Institute, the medallion dates 1860. There's just one thing I'm not sure of. Instead of the blade being marked Disston, it has an English Hallmark & is stamped "M. Hargreave Sheffield Warranted Cast Steel." The blade measures 26" long. I read on Disston's website that from 1840-1855 Disston used/brought over English blades until he started making his own steel. I guess during that time English steel was known to be superior. Any Disston buffs out there that can shed some light on this??

Reminds me of the handle @AK4570 made

 

[Roberts210]

But what is the little "nib" half way down the blade for?

 

[AntiqueBen]

I've heard some good guesses that made sense, but I think that's been a mystery for a century or longer.

 

[RTM]

But what is the little "nib" half way down the blade for?

Decoration, per Henry Disston. They go way back in history, including some early Roman saws.

 

[flyingblind]

I still have my D23 from college.

 

[Squez]

These are my pre 27 disston…

 

[Mike'smeatshop]

Thats a lot of saws. I'm not sure what brand this vise is. No marks that my eyes can see. I have a saw set somewhere but who knows? I have used this a lot but never to sharpen saws. A friend has a small Disston square that I thought was neat.

 

[RTM]

Thats a lot of saws. I'm not sure what brand this vise is. No marks that my eyes can see.

Might be a Sargent

Sargent Planes and Other Tools : Sargent & Co. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

84 p., illus., 16.7 cm, trade catalog

archive.org

 

[Mike'smeatshop]

Might be a Sargent

Sargent Planes and Other Tools : Sargent & Co. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

84 p., illus., 16.7 cm, trade catalog

archive.org

I believe your right. Thanks.

 

[bscalled]

Disston did use English steel at the outset, but he prepared, stamped and ground the saw plates himself. (For a while even after he was making his own steel he continued to claim he was using English steel, because of its good reputation.) Unless your saw is a unicorn, I've never seen another saw where Disston made use of premade plates with other maker names stamped on them. However, once he started producing catalogues, they do show Disston would sell medallions. And they do break, the older ones especially. (Methods of securing the shaft of the screw to the medallion improved over time.) Most likely the saw's owner either bought or repurposed a Disston medallion to fix an English one that had broken. Another possibility, an unlikely one, is that somewhere along the line a Disston handle and its medallions were married to an older saw plate. (The single holes and standard 26" plate length tend to undercut this possibility. A fixed medallion is a simpler explanation.) This is a fairly typical English saw handle style, though some early Disston handles do resemble it. It is a nice old saw whatever the story behind it.

 

[bscalled]

Here are some pictures from a Facebook saw collector's group of some early Disston saw handles. David La Touche would be someone you could address any further questions to about your saw. He knows much more than me. The handle on the top right, and the one just below it, look similar but not identical to your handle.

 

[Mike'smeatshop]

Here are some pictures from a Facebook saw collector's group of some early Disston saw handles. David La Touche would be someone you could address any further questions to about your saw. He knows much more than me. The handle on the top right, and the one just below it, look similar but not identical to your handle.

Those are art. To see how the skilled craftsmanship developed over time. We went downhill over time. Those are very rare here in Ky. I have yet to find anything that caliber of craftsmanship. Thanks for sharing.

 

[AntiqueBen]

I lucked out at the thrift store yesterday. I found an old handsaw for $5. When I saw the handle & the "nib" on the blade....I knew I found something good. It was in pretty bad shape. The blade was rusted with some pitting & the brass medallion was unreadable. I had no choice but to sand the blade to try & get some of the pitting out. Below are the after pics. I may still clean the blade some more, but I'm satisfied with it for now. The handle is a work of art! According to the medallion it could date to the 1870's? It also has a no. 7 stamped into the blade??

 

[RTM]

According to the medallion it could date to the 1870's? It also has a no. 7 stamped into the blade??

1896-1917 Is more likely in my opinion. Before that they were sunken medallions. The last generation prior looks like some were sunk. The nut shape make me think later, but I've been wrong before

Online Reference of Disston Saws -- The Medallions

identifying and dating disston saws

www.disstonianinstitute.com

The 7 should be teeth count, or correctly, points per inch. Start counting at the point, to the last point.

(Teeth per inch starts at the gullet.)

 

[AntiqueBen]

1896-1917 Is more likely in my opinion. Before that they were sunken medallions. The last generation prior looks like some were sunk. The nut shape make me think later, but I've been wrong before

Online Reference of Disston Saws -- The Medallions

identifying and dating disston saws

www.disstonianinstitute.com

The 7 should be teeth count, or correctly, points per inch. Start counting at the point, to the last point.

(Teeth per inch starts at the gullet.)

According to the Distonian Institute the medallion dates to 1878-1888. Pic below. It also looks like the next medallion too that goes to 1917? Did Diston make handles like this one into the 1900's? The bottom lip on the handle I always thought was an indicator of saws from the 1800's?

 

[bonneyman]

No info for the OP's question, but I have a small Disston keyhole saw. Does it count?

I grabbed this keyhole saw that I used as a restricted space hacksaw for awhile. But kept the keyhole blade handy in case I needed to cut a hole in sheetrock. It came with an allen bolt but I took a regular shoulder bolt and cut round grooves in it for easy of turning.

 

[AntiqueBen]

No info for the OP's question, but I have a small Disston keyhole saw. Does it count?

I grabbed this keyhole saw that I used as a restricted space hacksaw for awhile. But kept the keyhole blade handy in case I needed to cut a hole in sheetrock. It came with an allen bolt but I took a regular shoulder bolt and cut round grooves in it for easy of turning.

That little Diston is cool

 

[four.cycle]

a small Disston keyhole saw. Does it count?

very much so. that's one of the earliest iterations of "keyhole saw"

patent 194659 Aug 28 1877 Henry Disston and John Vandergrift

 

[bonneyman]

very much so. that's one of the earliest iterations of "keyhole saw"

patent 194659 Aug 28 1877 Henry Disston and John Vandergrift

Shoot! I gave it to my brother to use but he said he just put it in his "cool tools" collection!

Guess I'll have to start scrounging for another one.

 

[four.cycle]

I only knew what it was because I found one in an "antique mall" several weeks go, but their asking price seemed a bit stiff.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I have a small Disston keyhole saw.

You're giving me deja vu!

That's a later version of a holder they patented in 1877. The earliest was open on the flip side and just had the patent info on the top side. I have a couple. Go here and then scroll down to post #20 and #21 and you'll see what I mean.

 

[RTM]

According to the Distonian Institute the medallion dates to 1878-1888. Pic below. It also looks like the next medallion too that goes to 1917? Did Diston make handles like this one into the 1900's? The bottom lip on the handle I always thought was an indicator of saws from the 1800's?

Unfortunately, the Braid, highlighted here between the red marks, is not present on yours. Somehow I trimmed off the 1896-1917 from this image.



The lip is called a Lambs Tongue. If you go to the The Quick Glance…..Saws page, this nut pattern was used on the 7 & 8, not D7 & D8, and used to 1928 or 1918, depending. Following the links will give you more details

 

[AntiqueBen]

I've had this handsaw for a while & I've never tried to figure out what it is. It has no markings & the handle has a peculiar way of attaching to the blade. It has a single wing nut that goes all the way through. You can tell the wing nut has been there for a while due to the wear on the wood on the handle. The other flat head screw doesn't go all the way through the handle? I've never taken this apart to figure out how it stays in place? Also, not sure if it originally had a bottom horn on the handle or if someone cut it off. If it was cut off it was done a long time ago. It's perfectly smooth & matches up well with the rest of the handle. Anyone have any thoughts?