Earth-build garages, what do you know?

[Lil'John]

Title somewhat states it but for more information and pictures, here we go:
I'm in the VERY initial planning stages of a stand alone shop... mostly spit balling ideas to see what I can pull off.

I'm a bit concerned with leaving a "large" shop out in the open. On another web page, a guy brought up concept of "earth-build" structure... ie buried. Which supports the theory of "out of sight, out of mind".

So here is a picture of the lot(north is top of picture):

Green box is purposed garage(~30'x70') that would be build into a hill. The red lines are roll up doors(14' tall and 8' tall) while orange is a man door.

The odd area is an old horse corral. It is about 40'x60' flat. The white blob south west of the corral is a truck of some sort. Current lot does not have corral at all.

Here is a shot from the house looking at the area as it sits currently:

The white car next to the red car is roughly at the corner of the proposed garage. The white car to the gray car is about 40'. I have measured full flat area at 50' wide with about 5 foot away from left down slope.

In talking with the architect that is helping with a house remodel, he claims cost of buried earth-build is roughly equivalent of stick build.

So the questions I have for my current spit ball are:

1. Any Garage Journal builds for earth built shops? Found one in a search which was also spit ball
2. Is 30' depth an issue? I'm used to 20' deep garage right now so I think 30' will be plenty assuming no storage/benches in front.
3. Any bad problems with going 30'x70'+? There is potential of going up to 100' if I really wanted.
4. Is 14' tall sufficient for lift use? Thought is 1/3 to be 14' tall then 2/3 at 8' tall with second floor for storage.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Do you mean totally buried, with dirt and grass over the roof? Or just built into the hillside? Totally underground buildings can be a bear to keep watertight.

 

[Lil'John]

Do you mean totally buried, with dirt and grass over the roof? Or just built into the hillside? Totally underground buildings can be a bear to keep watertight.

Yes, I'm thinking totally buried with dirt and debris on top.

From the initial reading I've done so far(30 minutes ), it sounds like membrane type technology is doing pretty well.

It sounds like behind wall is typical retaining wall drainage techniques.

 

[tjdux]

I hae read the same thing that living roof structures are notorious for leaks. Theres not much that mice and other ground dwelling animals cant chew through and eventually i think you can end up with a leak.

Other factor is the weight of wet soil. That's serious engineering required right there.

So just a question what about burying the side walls in the ground and leaving the roof 2 or 3 ft above grade on front and sides and then maybe 1 ft in the back. Choose a color that blends in really well or paint it camo to blend with your exact surroundings. Or landscape it hidden at least from the road.

Also check out earth ships. They are structures made of actual earth by compacting it into used tires and are in theory very cheap to build. It seems like you already have the soil and the are often built into hills.

Good luck buddy.

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[brownbagg]

i think its a great idea, especially if you have matching house, It could be a compound, totally fire proof, hurricane proof, cold and hot weather proof.

i am jelousy

 

[Lil'John]

I hae read the same thing that living roof structures are notorious for leaks. Theres not much that mice and other ground dwelling animals cant chew through and eventually i think you can end up with a leak.

Other factor is the weight of wet soil. That's serious engineering required right there.

So just a question what about burying the side walls in the ground and leaving the roof 2 or 3 ft above grade on front and sides and then maybe 1 ft in the back. Choose a color that blends in really well or paint it camo to blend with your exact surroundings. Or landscape it hidden at least from the road.

The leaks is a concern for me. Mostly from killing equipment and boxed parts. Shouldn't hurt vehicles on floor

I think the engineering for the roof may not be too big of a deal. The impression I get from fully buried structures is they are "only" 2-3 foot down.

I'd rather not have 2-3 foot of roof above grade... I don't think that look would fit in the area quite right.

i think its a great idea, especially if you have matching house, It could be a compound, totally fire proof, hurricane proof, cold and hot weather proof.

House won't match. Fireproof would be handy since I'm in "wild fire" area Heat proof is a good thing(90s)... not sure on cold side though. We got a bunch of 1 foot snow storms through this winter. I'd hate to heat the whole shop for work

 

[ard]

Double your building costs.

If you have the money and feel compelled to have a 'buried' garage, or have unique design constraints, go for it.

If you have a budget, and thought 'hey this looks cool', then this little exercise will be short lived. My guess.

Same building department as me...

 

[Markfothebeast]

When I was a child I had a buddy that grew up in a house that was underground. There are many things to consider including water leakage. If Hitler was alive I'd be asking him how the hell he built the endless miles of tunnels and bunkers that are still holding up today. Look in to WW2 German bunker engineering.

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[Lil'John]

Please keep in mind, I'm talking about digging into a hill side then covering. I'm not talking about digging a 20' pit

Double your building costs.

If you have the money and feel compelled to have a 'buried' garage, or have unique design constraints, go for it.

If you have a budget, and thought 'hey this looks cool', then this little exercise will be short lived. My guess.

Same building department as me...

I've had two people tell me the earth-build was on par with stick build costs. I was very skeptical when it was first a guy from Texas. My architect in the area confirmed very close.

If the costs were similar, I'd rather go buried in a hill than exposed.

What has been your experience with the El Dorado building department? I haven't had any real contact with them but I have dealt with the Placerville city building department and it was fairly easy(fireplace insert)

 

[Falcon67]

There is an "earth house" for sale here. It's not billed as such, basically it's a structure about the size (apparently) of a smaller double wide with an open front and a stair access in the rear - so basically placed in a small hill and covered over. Nothing in the pics or description noted moisture problems and it looks/looked like it's been there quite a while.

I don't really see an affordable clear span type buried garage being in the stick built price range. That's a lot of weight on the roof and I'd imagine support columns would be necessary unless the roof was built with really large beams.

If the engineering could be worked out reasonably, it'd be a really cool build and space to work, especially if you could get a view out the doors. We looked at a property here in the way back with an eye for a similar thing.

 

[rsanter]

A friend of mine built an ICF house with a full basement.
The added costs were not much because he had his dad's tractor to dig out the hole for the basement. If you were to do the digging yourself that would save a ton.

He then had the foundation poured and then stacked the ICF blocks himself and installed the rebar. He then ordered the concrete truck with pumper and filled the blocks himself.
He then installed a waterproof barrier, French drain, and gravel &a dirt backfill.

If you are going to install the shop into a hill and have the back wall and sides covered in dirt with the front open then go for it.
I would be afraid to cover the roof with dirt as you will have to have a more structured roof and then still have the fear of leaks over time

Bob

 

[ishiboo]

A friend of mine built an ICF house with a full basement.
The added costs were not much because he had his dad's tractor to dig out the hole for the basement. If you were to do the digging yourself that would save a ton.

He then had the foundation poured and then stacked the ICF blocks himself and installed the rebar. He then ordered the concrete truck with pumper and filled the blocks himself.
He then installed a waterproof barrier, French drain, and gravel &a dirt backfill.

If you are going to install the shop into a hill and have the back wall and sides covered in dirt with the front open then go for it.
I would be afraid to cover the roof with dirt as you will have to have a more structured roof and then still have the fear of leaks over time

Bob

Digging the hole is not expensive, and unless you have large equipment or the ability to borrow some or rent it very cheaply, it's not normally cost-effective to DIY.

Definitely the laying out of the blocks and concrete work itself is a good way to save money if you can DIY.

I agree that 2X the cost seems about right. I'm not sure how much cheaper you could get.

 

[Lil'John]

I'm still in the "what am I getting into phase" so if costs get too unreasonable, I go traditional.

As for a view out the buried garage, here is an example of what I'd get:

This was taken off the NE corner of the house in the picture above.

 

[dbabicky]

When I was dating my Ex-Wife, she lived in an "Earth" home. Three sides were buried with a flat rubber roof. (I paid to have a conventional roof put on) Even with the conventional roof, she had to run a de-humidifier all the time except during the winter when she used wood heat. In the summer through fall it felt clammy in there. IDK, if I would or not, but if I like the idea as long as you can keep the moisture down. Hers was block wall construction, not poured walls.

 

[ard]

Please keep in mind, I'm talking about digging into a hill side then covering. I'm not talking about digging a 20' pit

IMO the very best 'in the ground' structures do NOT look like dirt was piled onto them. As a result you DO need to completely excavate the volume you will want to be conditoned space. Or you partway excavate a hill then lump dirt up onto it.

Aesthetically, you either hide the building almost entirely- or from say 2 or 3 sides, (with a walk out front that 'exposes' the doors, etc) or you build a nice structure to be appreciated- above grade or nearly so (ie perhaps partial 'built into' the hilside, but stiull a conventional stick (or concrete) structyre. Roof, etc.

My 2 cents.

I've had two people tell me the earth-build was on par with stick build costs. I was very skeptical when it was first a guy from Texas. My architect in the area confirmed very close.

If the costs were similar, I'd rather go buried in a hill than exposed.

Huh. Well I might say you will be paying too much for either.

What has been your experience with the El Dorado building department? I haven't had any real contact with them but I have dealt with the Placerville city building department and it was fairly easy(fireplace insert)

Variable. Very. 6 permits over the years. Couple of pricks for inspectors- power trip stuff. Last one, a solar, had to get the building official involved when inspectors/plan checkers were being dicks. I prevailed. But all in all they were OK working with owner/builder. Love their fees though....

 

[bczygan]

A lot can be done with landscaping.

 

[jives]

Why does it need to be hidden? Yes, out of sight, out of mind, but is your mountain neighborhood so sketchy that it needs to be out of sight? Or is something nefarious planned for the space?

I think underground spaces, especially those built into hillsides, are awesome. Done right they are energy saving marvels. From a safety standpoint, though, get a couple of dogs.

 

[Lil'John]

<snip>Variable. Very. 6 permits over the years. Couple of pricks for inspectors- power trip stuff. Last one, a solar, had to get the building official involved when inspectors/plan checkers were being dicks. I prevailed. But all in all they were OK working with owner/builder. Love their fees though....

Nice... that is what I somewhat worried about. When you say power trip stuff, are you talking about: 'The plan called for 12" nailing in the field, here is one that is 12.25"'

A lot can be done with landscaping.

Except when the driveway points directly at the corral spot

Why does it need to be hidden? Yes, out of sight, out of mind, but is your mountain neighborhood so sketchy that it needs to be out of sight? Or is something nefarious planned for the space?

I won't say it hasn't to be hidden. But if the cost to bury it is close, I'd go that route.

In talking with a neighbor, the area is pretty good and not high theft. The worst I've seen in six month of crime watch monitoring is a weed bust but that is somewhat the "norm" for El Dorado National Forest No theft in the area.

I just don't trust people so I've got a healthy amount of paranoia especially over my stuff. When money and items come into play, most people ****

I'll claim nothing nefarious planned but the Toyota Land Cruiser FJ55 fanatics might call my hacking up an FJ55 nefarious

 

[Warrensparadise]

I am very interested in how this works out for you. I too am looking to build something "underground " here in Butte county just a few mikes to your north. I have a vineyard on our property and am looking to build a winemaking and storage space about the size of a 2 car garage, I am looking to go underground for the temperature stability and natural cooling. I have weighed the options of a slab floor block walls and poured lid versus wire and beamed gunite structure (which would have more the appearance of a "cave") and would be interested in going whichever is the more economical route.
I look forward to hearing more about your progress.


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[Angelfire]

I've been in 7000 year old burial tombs that were buried in the wettest places on earth and they haven't leaked once. It can be done. Just need to have the right design (think shedding the water off the roof vs. relying on a membrane alone). One other advantage you would have with burying is with regards to heating/cooling.....wouldn't take much to keep it cool/warm I would think. Plus you'd have a bit of a bunker for when the **** hits the fan!

 

[jimgood]

Would radon be more of a problem?

 

[Jackfre]

You get one go at this to do it correctly. Water sealing and drainage have to be spot on. Humidity can be an issue in bermed structures. H&C costs will be moderate. Proper ventilation is a must. I think that you are making the best of the property you have. My shop is basically 30x30 with a 4x14' bump out for the big overhead door. It is always easy to say bigger is better, but I think you will be much happier in the space if you go to 34-35 deep.
The roof will be the ideal place for your garden.

 

[ryan77]

I did a partial in hill build 9 ft concrete walls in the deepest part, 32x64x14

 

[Lil'John]

The added bonus for my location is I do get snow. This year, I got three 1' storms since January.

<snip> Just need to have the right design (think shedding the water off the roof vs. relying on a membrane alone). One other advantage you would have with burying is with regards to heating/cooling.....wouldn't take much to keep it cool/warm I would think. <snip>

I think the design is the challenge. For cooling, my location doesn't get "too" bad. Usually 90s in the summer. For heat, I think that becomes a challenge with a large building

You get one go at this to do it correctly. Water sealing and drainage have to be spot on. Humidity can be an issue in bermed structures. H&C costs will be moderate. Proper ventilation is a must. I think that you are making the best of the property you have. My shop is basically 30x30 with a 4x14' bump out for the big overhead door. It is always easy to say bigger is better, but I think you will be much happier in the space if you go to 34-35 deep.
The roof will be the ideal place for your garden.

I'm not sure about one shot but it certainly would get expensive to have to fix

Almost every "enthusiast" shop build I've read through usually ended with "I wish I had gone bigger". The usual limits were budget or lot size.

My concern with going very large on the shop is hording **** and keeping it organized. I'm going to get to experiment with the hording/organizing in my 11'x44' basement that is my temp shop

I did a partial in hill build 9 ft concrete walls in the deepest part, 32x64x14

By your pictures, you don't have any doors on the long end(64), did I see that wrong? How do you like your setup?

 

[mikegt4]

When I bought my property I walked to the rear edge (1100' from the road) and noticed a heat pump or AC condenser sitting in a field beyond the property line. It turned out that there was an underground house on the road behind me.

My biggest concern would be that underground houses are chocked full of load bearing walls for a reason. I would think that any garage with a reasonable clear span would require very expensive structure to survive the "roof" loads.

 

[NC357]

If this is mostly just about security, you're much better off spending the extra money on insurance, than what it would cost to build and maintain a structure like that.

I'm temporarily renting a house while I build one...I went nuts replacing deadbolts and reinforcing the shed. I spent more on locks than what $40k renters insurance cost per year. I'd rather just leave the door unlocked and get new stuff now that I got the insurance...

I'm putting a basement under my new shop, but I don't have high hopes of big open spans, or dry air down there.

 

[Lil'John]

<snip>My biggest concern would be that underground houses are chocked full of load bearing walls for a reason. I would think that any garage with a reasonable clear span would require very expensive structure to survive the "roof" loads.

This was my concern also... not that the "structure" would be expensive but that the engineering costs would be VERY expensive.

Thus I was VERY shocked when I was told costs were consistent with stick build of same size. I don't care to go metal frame.

If this is mostly just about security, you're much better off spending the extra money on insurance, than what it would cost to build and maintain a structure like that.<snip>

It is about security and I would respectfully disagree that insurance would be better than securing to such a degree that potential thieves go else where.

You are failing to acknowledge a few things that insurance can't do:
1) Replace tools or parts that are no longer made... I have a LOT of no longer made parts for my FJ55 Land Cruisers. They were VERY expensive when I bought them, I can't get them now so woohoo, the insurance company gives me $2-3k for parts I can't get.
2) Replace vehicles with "unique" or personal history. I've got two FJ55s that are uniquely built that would **** to lose but I could recreate with enough cash. I've got another car that IS irreplaceable: one family owner numbers matching classic car.
3) Replace time that is lost while waiting to negotiate prices and replacements to arrive. I've heard stories of MONTHS of downtime while waiting for replacements to happen.

Thieves **** and hold nothing sacred... they destroy as much as they steal.

This thread is finding out more about earth-build structures and what pitfalls I might find. If the costs are similar, I'd rather have my shop hidden from view and not a temptation.

 

[NC357]

If the costs are similar

Just digging the hole is going to cost more than some people's entire shop.

Also, it's extremely rare for thieves to break in and steal cars or heavy metal parts. They're after power tools and anything they can run away with and pawn quick. It's not hard to secure a car in a building so that it's nearly impossible to steal. Buy your own tire boot. Keep roll up doors locked heavily from the inside, even if they break down a man door they can't get your vehicle out. If you really want to go nuts embed anchors into the floor and chain your vehicles down.

And yes, I've had my shop broken into 3 times in the last year. I have piles of irreplaceable rare antique parts, they don't touch those because they are too heavy and they don't know what they are. For that matter, I'm moving and it's hard for even me to load them all up in a truck...

 

[ard]

OP has been told the building costs are the same.....

 

[tjdux]

OP has been told the building costs are the same.....

Yeah i can't imagine how a stick frame building is going to cost the same amount as 100s (exaggeration but more than wood or metal) yards of specialized waterproof conctrete and steel beams that will hold a "living roof" consisting of soil, plants, possibly animals and lots of water...

OP are you sure your costs are reflective of your actual project? Not a building set in a hillside with regular roof? I can see how a hillside building with normal roof could be close on costs, both materials and engineering, but full underground with huge spans seems far out.

Have you personallu talked to contractors/enginners? Taken photos/drawings of your actual plan?

Signiture; Check out my garage progress http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352703

 

[vettex2]

if it is built to double as a tornado shelter I think it's a great idea.

 

[Lil'John]

As has been mentioned, I've been told by two people that the costs are similar between buried vs stick framed. One in the wrong state(TX vs my CA) and one in my county.

I can see costs getting VERY similar(I've done a fair bit of construction and estimations in the past):

• Digging - in my case only, I am digging into a nicely slopped hill side. So I would not be moving a full 70'x30'x14' worth of dirt. Probably closer to 1/2 that amount. Depending upon costs of paying someone, I would probably buy me a piece of equipment and do it myself.
• Construction(very rough) - For both types, a foundation and slab need to get built/poured so I'll kind of wash that from costs/labor. After that, for earth-build, it is a simple matter of setting up concrete forms and pouring concrete... plus a few days of curing time then slapping a concrete roof. Add in water proofing and bury. For stick frame, there is wall framing, then insulation install, then tyvec, then siding, then roof structure, then roof sheeting, then roof material.

For stick or even metal structure, I see two to three times the amount of labor cost compared to concrete.

I'm not sure how you are coming up with 100s of yards of concrete. I recently did some calculations for a 50'x14' pad at 6" thick. It was 13 yards. For walls, I'll go somewhat easy(30' + 30' + 70' + 20' misc on front for 150 linear feet) Lets double the thickness so 26 yards per 50' or ~75 yards for walls. If I go for guestimate of $150 per yard, we are at ~$11k for material before roof. Let's add another $5k for the roof. That is $16k for the structure material. For a metal building of 30'x70', ebay search shows 30'x50' being ~$12k.

I don't see two or three times cost over stick build. But the engineer cost on concrete engineering would push it up a bunch.

 

[NC357]

As has been mentioned, I've been told by two people that the costs are similar between buried vs stick framed.

Yeah, my parents used to tell me a fat man with a beard came down the chimney every year. We had a gas fire place...

You're totally ignoring the extra strength you have to add to the roof to hold all that weight, and all the waterproofing you will need to do. And freespan 30' under all that dirt is going to take some SERIOUS steel. Then you need serious drainage all around the building or it will be a swimming pool.

But if you know so much about underground buildings why are you asking us?

 

[Lil'John]

Yeah, my parents used to tell me a fat man with a beard came down the chimney every year. We had a gas fire place...

You're totally ignoring the extra strength you have to add to the roof to hold all that weight, and all the waterproofing you will need to do. And freespan 30' under all that dirt is going to take some SERIOUS steel. Then you need serious drainage all around the building or it will be a swimming pool.

But if you know so much about underground buildings why are you asking us?

Hmm... I guess people hundreds of years ago with NO steel ever build an earth-build structure. In your "expert" opinion, it is obviously impossible to do without some "SERIOUS" steel.

I've at least talked with one person who is in the middle of the process and an architect over the process... BOTH claimed costs to be close to stick build.

All you have shown in this thread is you don't know a damn thing but want to feel relevant. Not even claiming first, second, or even third hand knowledge to this topic. Keep shuffling along unless YOU bring some real knowledge.

As mentioned, I'm doing research on the topic and looking for people with experience with this. Your piss poor attitude is showing I probably picked the wrong forum.

 

[NC357]

Hmm... I guess people hundreds of years ago with NO steel ever build an earth-build structure.

No, hundreds of years ago they did not build underground houses with free spans of 30 feet. And yes, they would have used lots of heavy timber to support any sort of underground workings.

A HOUSE and a SHOP are TOTALLY different things.

Just what do you plan on supporting the roof with? Do you have ANY idea how heavy that will be?

 

[Coasterbuilder]

What you have found is that the answers you are looking for are found in the first page or so or replies. After that, you largely get a bunch of "way to go dude" and bitter negatively from retired truck drivers who never earned a dime in their lives from their knowledge, and sound like they never do or build anything that wasn't gold plated.

The same on every forum- not unique to this one.

 

[Lil'John]

No, hundreds of years ago they did not build underground houses with free spans of 30 feet. And yes, they would have used lots of heavy timber to support any sort of underground workings.

A HOUSE and a SHOP are TOTALLY different things.

Just what do you plan on supporting the roof with? Do you have ANY idea how heavy that will be?

A house and a shop are NOT totally different things. They are buildings. The interior is the only difference. There is nothing special about a house truss or a shop truss.

Actually I DO know how heavy it will be down to the static load per square foot. Where have you provided ANY facts in your replies so far?

All you've done is thread crapped since you got here. As I said previously, unless you are adding any factual data, take your crappy attitude somewhere else. You are no value add to this thread.

 

[Lil'John]

What you have found is that the answers you are looking for are found in the first page or so or replies. After that, you largely get a bunch of "way to go dude" and bitter negatively from retired truck drivers who never earned a dime in their lives from their knowledge, and sound like they never do or build anything that wasn't gold plated.

The same on every forum- not unique to this one.

Pretty much. This is actually first person on Garage that I've run into that is one of the forum know-it-all asshats with no supporting info/facts.

 

[NC357]

A house and a shop are NOT totally different things. They are buildings. The interior is the only difference.

LOL! Underground houses do not have 30' free spans. They are full of load bearing walls! That interior difference is the most important difference!

Actually I DO know how heavy it will be down to the static load per square foot. Where have you provided ANY facts in your replies so far?

So, how do you propose to support all that weight? I notice you don't bother to share any actual numbers, or construction techniques. Why should I?

All you've done is thread crapped since you got here.

Sometimes the truth hurts. You seem to be avoiding actual facts as much as possible. "but some guy told me it would cost the same!" is all you can say.

This is never gonna happen. Come back in a year and post pics of this project in progress and I'll send you $50.

 

[Lil'John]

LOL! Underground houses do not have 30' free spans. They are full of load bearing walls! That interior difference is the most important difference!


So, how do you propose to support all that weight? I notice you don't bother to share any actual numbers, or construction techniques.

This is never gonna happen. Come back in a year and post pics of this project in progress and I'll send you $50.

Your claim of interior walls all being load bearing just proves you don't know a damn thing.

You are the ****** who started the argument. How about you support YOUR argument with facts? Obviously, you have not a single fact.

Take a hike and let the adults talk. Again, you are a non-value add to this thread.