Electric Heat

[FULLSCALE302]

I know electric isn't that efficient but it's my only option right now... I planning on running a natural gas line to my garage but I ran out of time to do it this year.

I want something that will keep my garage somewhere in the 5-10 degree Celcius range (about 40-50F) and then I can bump it up when I want to work out there for any length of time. The space I am working with is 14'x38', the ceiling is just shy of 8' and it is fully insulated.

I have one of these right now, I just turn it on an hour or so before I want to work and then shut it off when I'm done.
https://www.homehardware.ca/en/rec/...er/_/N-ntmanZ1z140it/Ne-mn98/R-I5571918?Num=0

I saw one of these, thought with the digital thermostat I could set it low but it may cost too much running a 7,000 watt heater that much.
http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/m...shop-heater-with-remote-0435120p.0435120.html

I was also considering one of these, but the ones I have seen only allow the thermostat to be dropped to about 15 Celcius (about 60F).
http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/noma-wood-cabinet-heater-large-0435998p.html

 

[yeldogt]

Electric is efficient -- it's just costly in most of the country .. but not in all .. what is your electric rate?

You don't give location .. how long have you used the current heater ... did it get you through last winter ?

Electric is all about costs .. it's fine heat .. that's all I had in my studio for years.

 

[Shop Specialties]

I would go with that Mastercraft unit.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I want something that will keep my garage somewhere in the 5-10 degree Celcius range (about 40-50F) and then I can bump it up when I want to work out there for any length of time. The space I am working with is 14'x38', the ceiling is just shy of 8' and it is fully insulated.

First is there anyway you can temporarily partition that down to a smaller size ? Something like figuring a way to hang fiberglass batts or rolls from the ceiling. I would help a lot and help control the heating cost.

With such a long length, any heating solution is going to need more than 1 fan to distribute the warm air. If you want 5C over the whole area I would go with TWO of the Dimplex heaters. When you want the temp up to 15C, add a kerosene or portable propane heater. Remember, non-vented propane heaters add a lot of moisture to the air.


If you have a gas solution in mind, see if the manufacturer sells orifices for both propane and natural gas (quite common). Install your heat with propane orifices and rent a 250-500 gallon tank for this season. Switch the orifices when you can run gas.

 

[yeldogt]

For an insulated space under 350sf .. electric may be your best choice. I can't believe you need more than the 4800 heater .. just get a line volt thermostat .. they sell them with very low temp setting. Wire it in between the outlet.

Even at my electric rates -- I would heat that space with electric.

 

[Bolson32]

For an insulated space under 350sf .. electric may be your best choice. I can't believe you need more than the 4800 heater .. just get a line volt thermostat .. they sell them with very low temp setting. Wire it in between the outlet.

Even at my electric rates -- I would heat that space with electric.

Well it's actually over 500, but still you might be right. Out of curiosity what are your rates?

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[yeldogt]

Well it's actually over 500, but still you might be right. Out of curiosity what are your rates?

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Sorry -- I wanted to say 500. I was taking a tad off for the low ceiling.

My rates are almost .20 KW

I have an electric that 2500w and 4000w switchable -- w/ thermostat on the unit. It's a marley from either lowes or HD. I like placing the electric low so it sends the hot air along the floor.

 

[FULLSCALE302]

Thanks for the info so far.

I am in Midwestern Ontario in Canada. I just grabbed my last bill, and my current rates are:
On Peak: $0.132000
Off Peak: $0.065000
Mid Peak: $0.095000

So I guess that would average about $0.09/kWh.

 

[yeldogt]

With decent insulation I can't see this costing all that much -- electric is quick and easy. When and if you want to go gas -- it's going to need a very small heater. It all about insulation and air leakage.

 

[apollo11]

First is there anyway you can temporarily partition that down to a smaller size ? Something like figuring a way to hang fiberglass batts or rolls from the ceiling. I would help a lot and help control the heating cost.

I used racing banners for "drapes" to do that.
They are 8-9' tall and hard to find though.

 

[Falcon67]

I heat my 24x40 with a 5 kw electric. Might take a bit at startup since I only run it when needed, once at a nominal temp it does surprisingly well.

 

[James-W]

Electric is efficient -- it's just costly in most of the country .. but not in all .. what is your electric rate?

You don't give location .. how long have you used the current heater ... did it get you through last winter ?

Electric is all about costs .. it's fine heat .. that's all I had in my studio for years.

I agree and I don't understand why so many people say it isn't efficient. If you had a really cheap electric rate then heating your whole house electrically would be a great way to do it.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I used racing banners for "drapes" to do that.
They are 8-9' tall and hard to find though.

Great idea ! Probably look pretty good also !!

 

[theoldwizard1]

I heat my 24x40 with a 5 kw electric. Might take a bit at startup since I only run it when needed, once at a nominal temp it does surprisingly well.

Your in TX. OP is in Ontario, CA. Not sure exactly where but below 0F (-20C) is pretty common in those parts at night.

 

[Bolson32]

I agree and I don't understand why so many people say it isn't efficient. If you had a really cheap electric rate then heating your whole house electrically would be a great way to do it.

To most people, overall cost = efficiency. They don't care if you're only getting 80% efficiency if it's half the price of something that's 100% efficient.

But I agree. I'm going to rig up a 5000 watt for my 330sq ft insulated garage and set it at 40 deg. I'm not anticipating that much of an increase in energy costs. I calculated it to cost $288 a month if it ran 24/7. It gets cold here in Minnesota, but if you're not going in and out all the time I can't imagine it runs THAT much. Maybe a couple hours a day? Total?

I'm putting in the electric myself and I figure I can buy a lot of electricity for the ~$2000 I was being quoted for natural gas.

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[theoldwizard1]

I agree and I don't understand why so many people say it isn't efficient. If you had a really cheap electric rate then heating your whole house electrically would be a great way to do it.

I never said it was inefficient, only that it is typically not COST EFFECTIVE !

For temps between about 0F and 65F nothing beat a goo mini-split heat pump. They are typically over 100% efficient in that range, because they are just moving existing heat from one place (outside) to another (inside).

 

[theoldwizard1]

But I agree. I'm going to rig up a 5000 watt for my 330sq ft insulated garage and set it at 40 deg. I'm not anticipating that much of an increase in energy costs. I calculated it to cost $288 a month if it ran 24/7. It gets cold here in Minnesota, but if you're not going in and out all the time I can't imagine it runs THAT much.

I would really like to hear from you when you get your electric bill for Jan and Feb. Seriously. I hope you are correct.

I'm putting in the electric myself and I figure I can buy a lot of electricity for the ~$2000 I was being quoted for natural gas.

You are right about that !

 

[Dagny]

It's 100% eff. but the losses take place in the lines and other equipment. Heating with electricity here will put you in the poor house.

 

[Bolson32]

I would really like to here from you when you get your electric bill for Jan and Feb. Seriously. I hope you are correct.

I'll make a mental note to come back with it and let you know. If it's too expensive I'll just heat it when I'm out there. But,. 08-.09 per kwh means about $0.40 an hour to run it can't seriously run THAT much throughout the day.

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[Bolson32]

It's 100% eff. but the losses take place in the lines and other equipment. Heating with electricity here will put you in the poor house.

Explain. What lines and other places?

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[Bert_]

I would really like to here from you when you get your electric bill for Jan and Feb. Seriously. I hope you are correct.

I'll add my 2 cents. The heat in my house is electric baseboard heaters. I think my highest electric bill last winter was $180, the rest of the winter was closer to $130-140. It's not a big house (~1200 sq ft) but it's not that well insulated either. This is in NW Iowa.

 

[The_Auto_Tech]

I think a lot of people just write electric off since it costs more than NG. Honestly, it's about the insulation and air-tightness of the space, not what you use to heat it. Sometimes it's just not cost effective to setup NG. In my case I saved about 1200 dollars using electric heater compared to NG heater, same size. I didn't have to trench, permit, rent anything, or buy a bunch of supplies. I figure for the maybe 2 hours of run-time a day the heater will see it's not going to cost much, especially since I make money doing it. Also, it's not as if NG is free either, plus there's not much to go wrong on the electric heater compared to the NG one.

 

[850xpeps]

I would suggest getting a used forced air furnace from a house. Disconnect all the banks except 1. Leaving you 5 kw but a real good air circulator. Heats my 26x28 garage to 15 likely nothing on -35 days in Canada. Much better than smaller 5kw heaters that don’t move the air around enough.

 

[yeldogt]

With cheap electric rates -- the cost can be about the same as propane. It's all about total yearly BTU's needed.

Electric is very easy to control and cheap to zone -- it's the best if you wish to maintain a space in the low 40's to avoid freezing (like a vacation house or utility garage). In my 1700sf studio -- keeping the place 65+ and 70 with electric was around $150 a few years ago when the temps stayed in the 0's for most of the month.

Ideally, having both gas and electric is the best IMO. I have a properly sized gas heater to maintain the space and can turn on the electric with the gas when I want to raise the temp faster should I arrive at the house and want to use the building immediately. Having the properly sized (not too large) heater is important for comfort ... don't like on/off/on/off

 

[Showkey]

It’s cost per btu that is important.........not insulation or building sealing. The building is fixed in the cost equation. Electric in most locations is 2-5 times more expensive than NG.

http://www.erpud.com/comparison.htm

http://www.travisindustries.com/CostOfHeating_WkSht.asp?P=2

Obviously the cost is less if you only heat part time but that cost is independent of the fuel choice.

 

[yeldogt]

It’s cost per btu that is important.........not insulation or building sealing. The building is fixed in the cost equation. Electric in most locations is 2-5 times more expensive than NG.

http://www.erpud.com/comparison.htm

http://www.travisindustries.com/CostOfHeating_WkSht.asp?P=2

Obviously the cost is less if you only heat part time but that cost is independent of the fuel choice.

The insulation and building tightness is very important -- as that increases the BTU load. The greater the yearly BTU's .......the more alternate fuels become attractive.

I built a winter ski house in a winter kind of development -- originally, no permanent residents. All the houses were electric -- all the lines buried ... the place never lost power. Every room was individually zoned electric baseboard .. I hated the look ... but, it worked flawlessly and was cheap to install. The plumbing was central to the house -- all designed to keep from freezing. Very well insulated We could adjust everything accordingly -- including when we were not there and it heated up quickly on arrival. You can't keep a house at 45 with a typical gas furnace and expect it to operate properly for a long time ... some people did install propane space heaters after a while .. the savings minimal unless full time.

 

[R_einan]

I recently finished adding an electric heating unit to my 28x28 shop. Which is reasonably insulated with r13 behind Sheetrock in the walls and r19 in the rafters. I set mine on a thermostat using a relay/transformer so I could use a ‘low temp’ thermostat which will maintain temps just above freezing. Haven’t been running it much yet so I can’t say what the electric bill will look like, but it works. I have seen 7-10 degree temp increase in 1/2 hr.

The heater:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LWMDOG1/?tag=atomicindus08-20

The relay:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0037MXM1C/?tag=atomicindus08-20

The thermostat:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002Z7EBCE/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[Bolson32]

It’s cost per btu that is important.........not insulation or building sealing. The building is fixed in the cost equation. Electric in most locations is 2-5 times more expensive than NG.

http://www.erpud.com/comparison.htm

http://www.travisindustries.com/CostOfHeating_WkSht.asp?P=2

Obviously the cost is less if you only heat part time but that cost is independent of the fuel choice.

Thanks for posting this, I was looking for something similar. While I agree that cost per BTU helps decide the cheapest fuel, it's really only part of the overall cost benefit analysis.

Say it takes 4 million BTUs to keep my garage at 50 degrees all the time for an average winter month. Adjusting for my local rates.

NG - 40 therms x 1.02/therm = $40.80
Electric - 1172kWh x .09/kWh = $105.48

Difference = ~$65/month or ~$290 for a full winter of approximately 4.5 months

Now it would cost me about ~$2000 to get a NG heater installed which puts my break even point between 6 and 7 years (2000/290 = 6.89)

Personally, I'm not going to live here for more than another 5 years, plus I think those estimates are probably pretty conservative on cost. It cost me 131 therms of NG last January to heat my 1440sq ft house to mid 60's for the whole month and run the water heater. My garage has less attic insulation but it's spray foamed and about a 1/5th the size. 4 Million BTU's is probably more than it would actually take to keep 330sq ft of garage at 40-50 degrees for a month. There for if better insulation and less air infiltration reduces those therms, that break even moves out even further. If you're going to have your garage forever and heat it constantly, NG is very likely the way to go. But if your break even point is 7-20 years and you probably won't live there that long. Electric might not be the worst idea. Especially if you're only going to heat it while you're out there.

I just typed this up as I worked through the numbers. Someone let me know if I've made any egregious mistakes.

 

[yeldogt]

I recently finished adding an electric heating unit to my 28x28 shop. Which is reasonably insulated with r13 behind Sheetrock in the walls and r19 in the rafters. I set mine on a thermostat using a relay/transformer so I could use a ‘low temp’ thermostat which will maintain temps just above freezing. Haven’t been running it much yet so I can’t say what the electric bill will look like, but it works. I have seen 7-10 degree temp increase in 1/2 hr.

The heater:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LWMDOG1/?tag=atomicindus08-20

The relay:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0037MXM1C/?tag=atomicindus08-20

The thermostat:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002Z7EBCE/?tag=atomicindus08-20

They make very cheap direct wire (line) versions. Wire path = main panel -- thermostat - heater

 

[Bolson32]

I recently finished adding an electric heating unit to my 28x28 shop. Which is reasonably insulated with r13 behind Sheetrock in the walls and r19 in the rafters. I set mine on a thermostat using a relay/transformer so I could use a ‘low temp’ thermostat which will maintain temps just above freezing. Haven’t been running it much yet so I can’t say what the electric bill will look like, but it works. I have seen 7-10 degree temp increase in 1/2 hr.

The heater:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LWMDOG1/?tag=atomicindus08-20

The relay:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0037MXM1C/?tag=atomicindus08-20

The thermostat:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002Z7EBCE/?tag=atomicindus08-20

They make very cheap direct wire (line) versions. Wire path = main panel -- thermostat - heater

I wasn't able to find a line thermostat that went below like 50 though. And from what I've gathered a lot of them are only rated for ~20amps. The ones you can find in big box and on the internet of course.


R_einan how'd that work for you? I'm going with an almost identical setup just a programmable thermostat and the 5k watt profusion. FYI, that Aube is only rated for 22amps, that 7500 watt heater will pull north of 30. That may be a touch risky, that's why I went with the 5000watt, well that and I don't need anything bigger. I say that having very little electrical knowledge.

 

[yeldogt]

Thanks for posting this, I was looking for something similar. While I agree that cost per BTU helps decide the cheapest fuel, it's really only part of the overall cost benefit analysis.

Say it takes 4 million BTUs to keep my garage at 50 degrees all the time for an average winter month. Adjusting for my local rates.

NG - 40 therms x 1.02/therm = $40.80
Electric - 1172kWh x .09/kWh = $105.48

Difference = ~$65/month or ~$290 for a full winter of approximately 4.5 months

Now it would cost me about ~$2000 to get a NG heater installed which puts my break even point between 6 and 7 years (2000/290 = 6.89)

Personally, I'm not going to live here for more than another 5 years, plus I think those estimates are probably pretty conservative on cost. It cost me 131 therms of NG last January to heat my 1440sq ft house to mid 60's for the whole month and run the water heater. My garage has less attic insulation but it's spray foamed and about a 1/5th the size. 4 Million BTU's is probably more than it would actually take to keep 330sq ft of garage at 40-50 degrees for a month. There for if better insulation and less air infiltration reduces those therms, that break even moves out even further. If you're going to have your garage forever and heat it constantly, NG is very likely the way to go. But if your break even point is 7-20 years and you probably won't live there that long. Electric might not be the worst idea. Especially if you're only going to heat it while you're out there.

I just typed this up as I worked through the numbers. Someone let me know if I've made any egregious mistakes.

The electric -- is 100% (-motor). Not getting 100% from the gas. Most garage units are at 80% when new .. + you have to factor in the cost of the motors if you really want to get specific.

NG is always going to be the cheapest -- matching the output to the load is always the most comfortable. It's all a mater of what you have, can do and put up with.

I do a lot of hand wood work -- have a bench off to one corner at one place. Even if the shop is colder than I like on arrival -- one of the simple 1500 W strip heaters (no fan) under the bench is great .. the heat gets trapped under it and warms everything around me. I have one at my desk in the same building.

 

[Bolson32]

Yea, I completely agree that NG will always be cheaper in the long run. But it's about matching ROI. I think in my situation ROI is going to be more like 10+ years. Certainly not the 3-5 that I plan on being there. Plus the low up front cost makes it enticing for a lot of applications.

 

[yeldogt]

Yea, I completely agree that NG will always be cheaper in the long run. But it's about matching ROI. I think in my situation ROI is going to be more like 10+ years. Certainly not the 3-5 that I plan on being there. Plus the low up front cost makes it enticing for a lot of applications.

I agree

 

[yeldogt]

I wasn't able to find a line thermostat that went below like 50 though. And from what I've gathered a lot of them are only rated for ~20amps. The ones you can find in big box and on the internet of course.


R_einan how'd that work for you? I'm going with an almost identical setup just a programmable thermostat and the 5k watt profusion. FYI, that Aube is only rated for 22amps, that 7500 watt heater will pull north of 30. That may be a touch risky, that's why I went with the 5000watt, well that and I don't need anything bigger. I say that having very little electrical knowledge.

Actually, I think mine were 25A ... but you are correct the 20's are most common.

I prefer have two smaller vs one large -- better coverage and more comfort. I think the two were 4500w each.

 

[FULLSCALE302]

Thanks everyone for all the info, keep it up!!

I am just taking it all in for now, before I make a decision. My father-in-law just texted me and he actually bought the 7500W one that I mentioned in the first post for his garage.

One thing I did forget to mention, is that one end of my garage has an 9x7' garage door that I open to get my snowblower out and then open again to put it away. This usually happens about 45 minutes apart. Would one type of electric heat or heater be better for this than another?

 

[Bolson32]

I would guess a gas fired furnace would reheat your garage a bit quicker than an electric. But from what I've gathered there isn't a ton of variation between electric heaters. They all heat on the same principle and any cost difference is usually just bells and whistles. I.e. a 7500W heater from King will heat the same as a 7500W heat from Profusion. 7500W is 7500W no matter how you slice it.

 

[PoorOwner]

One thing guaranteed about electric is that the rates go up. It seems like not too long ago our rates (California) was also around $.11, now it is $.20 with a very useless tier 1 allowance, so you advance to the next tier guaranteed, paying $.28 per /kW.
I am sure places like BC and Ontario are experiencing population growth, as demand increases so will the utility rates.

So it could make sense to install the most cost effective heat possible (hint: not resistant heat).

 

[Bolson32]

Not sure I necessarily buy into that. Dead dinosaur fuel, for all intents and purposes is a finite natural resource. If anything, that cost has gone up disproportionately up here in MN compared to Electricity. Especially with us getting power from the surrounding Nuclear plants and the wind farms down south, we're sitting at a comfortable .08/kWh. It's very realistic that in 20 years electricity is the main mode of heat for a lot of places. Even if you're not a green nut, you can't argue that solar, wind, hydro, and nuclear are pretty much unlimited resources. Sure there's money that goes into producing them, but NG doesn't just flow into my furnace by way of osmosis either.

 

[The_Auto_Tech]

Not sure I necessarily buy into that. Dead dinosaur fuel, for all intents and purposes is a finite natural resource. If anything, that cost has gone up disproportionately up here in MN compared to Electricity. Especially with us getting power from the surrounding Nuclear plants and the wind farms down south, we're sitting at a comfortable .08/kWh. It's very realistic that in 20 years electricity is the main mode of heat for a lot of places. Even if you're not a green nut, you can't argue that solar, wind, hydro, and nuclear are pretty much unlimited resources. Sure there's money that goes into producing them, but NG doesn't just flow into my furnace by way of osmosis either.

I'd agree with this. Down here in Iowa solar and wind farms have been popping up immensely. You're seeing a rural areas investing heavily into them because the technology is very affordable now.

 

[R_einan]

They make very cheap direct wire (line) versions. Wire path = main panel -- thermostat - heater

Line voltage thermostats are hard to find rated for ~32A. Also, I wanted the thermostat on the opposite side of the panel from the heater. The cost of 8-2 made the savings a wash, plus its easier to pull thermostat wire (18-3) than 8-2 romex.

I wasn't able to find a line thermostat that went below like 50 though. And from what I've gathered a lot of them are only rated for ~20amps. The ones you can find in big box and on the internet of course.


R_einan how'd that work for you? I'm going with an almost identical setup just a programmable thermostat and the 5k watt profusion. FYI, that Aube is only rated for 22amps, that 7500 watt heater will pull north of 30. That may be a touch risky, that's why I went with the 5000watt, well that and I don't need anything bigger. I say that having very little electrical knowledge.

The relay is actually connected to the control circuit of a contact or that is built in on my unit, which carries the amperage. The relay controls the contactor and receives its signal from a low voltage thermostat. Relay doesn’t get the full amperage so it doesn’t need to be rated for the full ~32A.