Electric or Gas Boiler?

[bruincounselor]

Boiler for 900sq' garage, in-floor radiant system.

24'x38'X10', foamed 2" on walls with bats to R24 total - 3" in rafter with cellulose over to meet code, also R24 total. I did the tubes in the concrete and R10 insulation under slab and perimeter. 2 overhead doors - 18' and 9'. Completely rocked with storage trusses so 11'X38' storage space above. North Dakota so winter is coming and it does get cold and windy too. I plan on keeping it ~50 degrees all winter.

Quotes:
$3800 - Electric
$6000 - Natural Gas, installer won't do condensing because there is no floor drain. Also does not include cost of running line ~60' from meter (plenty of pressure already)

I'm seeing ~$3000 price swing. I have the amps 3' from boiler location so that's easy. Is it worth investing in the gas? How long will the difference be met in cost savings? Do electric now and invest later? I am really busy with work so I can't do it myself right now.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

Hi BC
I'm going to watch this blog. I am facing the same delima. I'm all prepped up with infloor tubing and insulation. Eight inch of foam with a torch on roof, 10' ceiling with an open 2 truss layout. Since I may not be using the space on a continual day by day basis. Some say just do a gas blower and turn on when you need it. Others saying go with infloor using electricity supposedly all you are saving is the cost of a boiler and the gas installation with a permit fee.
North Dakota would also be similar to my area for temperature highs and lows. I might go with the blower and get the gas installed and think about doing the boiler later. I've got more into this garage than my first house and that included the land. That was a new build 1000 sq.ft house in a nice area of town.

 

[acmikee]

I would go gas... you can do a condensing boiler and run the condensate to a pump and pump it out. I would also think about adding an extra run for a future fan coil unit so you can add addition heat if needed or if you want to heat the shop up quicker.

 

[bruincounselor]

I like the fan coil suggestion - good idea. Is it permissible by "code" to drain condensate onto ground? This is an in-town location.

 

[roscoe2000]

I would go gas... you can do a condensing boiler and run the condensate to a pump and pump it out. I would also think about adding an extra run for a future fan coil unit so you can add addition heat if needed or if you want to heat the shop up quicker.

One thing to be aware of the condensate from a condensing boiler is corrosive, so precautions should be taking with choice of pipe and pump.

 

[yeldogt]

It's a question of electric cost -- many calculators around .. just plug in the numbers. My guess is with NG available .. it's going to be gas.

There are simple boilers around that will do radiant -- everyone thinks you need to but in a 7k boiler ... but a simple boilers able to take low temp return water is often a viable solution. It can take 10-15 years to break even ... and thats with not expense associated with maintaining the more complicated condensing boiler.

 

[tjm129]

I'm in IL and did my comparison and decided to go electric. I have not yet installed it yet, but by numbers are close to what you are coming up with. how I looked at it was what is my payback period for gas to be cheaper in the long run, for me it was about 7 years. I figured that with changes in solar and other technology, in 5 or 7 years time I might even be able to change that cost. Also, other than the electric boiler, all the other equipment was the same. So even if in 5 years I decide to go the NG route, I am really only out about $500.

TJ

 

[naturalgas]

Get a couple more quotes on the gas boiler. Seems high. As stated above condensate pump to outside bldg. with filter. Around here Elec. Is too high to even consider.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[bruincounselor]

I'll get another quote on gas. Wife says go gas....

 

[James-W]

North Dakota gets pretty damn cold in the Winter. If you are planning on using an electric boiler and heating the space on a full time basis (which I assume you are) and if you have an extremely cold Winter, I suspect your electric heating bill will be VERY high.

 

[James-W]

I'll get another quote on gas. Wife says go gas....

Why is she so dead set against natural gas?

 

[bruincounselor]

Why is she so dead set against natural gas?

"Go gas" means to seek the gas option vigorously. She is against raising the electric bill if possible. My apologies if that was not clear. She well understands the cost of electric heat. It was one of our modes when we lived in Alaska (ouch).

 

[James-W]

"Go gas" means to seek the gas option vigorously. She is against raising the electric bill if possible. My apologies if that was not clear. She well understands the cost of electric heat. It was one of our modes when we lived in Alaska (ouch).

Sorry about that, I thought you meant to say "no" gas but made a typo.

 

[sharkytm]

Throw some solar on the roof and go electric! It might be a good option if you factor in the tax incentives. That's a pretty garage, I like the extended gables and color.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

Do you want to be cold while your power is out?

 

[bruincounselor]

Do you want to be cold while your power is out?

Unless I go with a wood/coal fired stove a power outage has the same consequence regardless of gas or electric heating. The fluid pump needs to run to make it work and I'm not going to crank it. I did get buried line from the pole so if the power is out it's not just me.

 

[Gila Monster]

I would definitely go gas if I planned to stay there. Also since you are using it all winter.

Just me completely guessing here, but I would assume something like 3 years to "break" even on the increased cost of putting in gas based on the figures you quoted.

I just know i have two hot water heaters that I converted to nat gas and I probably save about $800+ per year vs electric. That was about 20 years ago, so it's been a great investment. And I also get way better performance.

 

[Black Oak]

Hard to imagine where gas won't be cheaper to operate, in a cold climate. Find the right boiler for your needs, you'll be good.

 

[98ssuck]

If you go gas neutralize the condensate and pump it outside. Is wood fired a option?

 

[6768rogues]

If you plan to spend more than a few years there, go with natural gas. Here you can get 4 times the heat per dollar in energy costs with gas as compared to electric.

 

[bruincounselor]

Got another bid today. $4800 for condensing boiler installed. Seems reasonable and it's the company I'd rather take my business to anyway.

 

[Burl]

If I may ask, what condensing boiler?

 

[bruincounselor]

Navien. I have one of their tankless units and it's been flawless.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I would go gas... you can do a condensing boiler and run the condensate to a pump and pump it out. I would also think about adding an extra run for a future fan coil unit so you can add addition heat if needed or if you want to heat the shop up quicker.

One thing to be aware of the condensate from a condensing boiler is corrosive, so precautions should be taking with choice of pipe and pump.

If you go gas neutralize the condensate and pump it outside. Is wood fired a option?

Condensing burner condensate must be neutralized by code and cannot be "dumped" onto the ground. It has to be piped to a waste line.

Tommy

 

[bruincounselor]

I asked for an open loop so I can add a fan coil later if I want. Condensate cannot be dumped, message received.

 

[bruincounselor]

On the contractor's schedule for late October. I'm sure they are hoping the ground isn't frozen yet.

 

[yeldogt]

What model ....I have never used a Navien

 

[bruincounselor]

55

http://us.navien.com/Product/Category-NHB series/

 

[bruincounselor]

Boiler installed yesterday. Not impressed with installer as they left a mess, didn't add the fan loop requested, and don't have a plan for condensate. For now the drain goes to a catch I put in to collect snowmelt off vehicles; it isn't a drain so I'm looking for solutions. They say out through the wall isn't allowed because the line will freeze up. There must be a solution to this problem, ironically the city signed off on it already.

 

[Bert_]

I'm not exactly sure how much water these things produce, but I wonder if the condensate might evaporate from floor catch fast enough for it to be a non issue? Especially with a warm floor speeding up the process.

I am imagining a large catch if it is designed to hold snow melt from cars. Most around here would have a fairly deep pit, usually full of pea gravel with a grate over the top.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I would go gas... you can do a condensing boiler and run the condensate to a pump and pump it out.

Absolutely !

The only way electric makes sense is if you are not going to use it very much. Then that push out that $3000 difference further into the future. Impossible to predict without knowing the rates for gas and electric and a proper manual J study.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Throw some solar on the roof and go electric! It might be a good option if you factor in the tax incentives.

So who is going to climb on the roof and clear the snow of the solar panels ?

Here in MI, we don't have a lot of sunny days, especially in winter.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Do you want to be cold while your power is out?

Unless I go with a wood/coal fired stove a power outage has the same consequence regardless of gas or electric heating.

It won't take a huge generator to run the pumps and ignite the boiler.

 

[roscoe2000]

I'm not exactly sure how much water these things produce, but I wonder if the condensate might evaporate from floor catch fast enough for it to be a non issue? Especially with a warm floor speeding up the process.

I am imagining a large catch if it is designed to hold snow melt from cars. Most around here would have a fairly deep pit, usually full of pea gravel with a grate over the top.

It seems like the contractor had cut some corners cause it a minimum it should be routed to a drain. I would go back to the city for some answers since if it can't legally be piped out side, it sure can be legal to allow it to drain on to the floor.

I would also have concerns with the handling of the condensate as it is highly corrosive.

 

[bruincounselor]

It seems like the contractor had cut some corners cause it a minimum it should be routed to a drain. I would go back to the city for some answers since if it can't legally be piped out side, it sure can be legal to allow it to drain on to the floor.

I would also have concerns with the handling of the condensate as it is highly corrosive.

I think there was poor (or no) communication between the estimator who wrote the bid and the worker(s) who were sent to execute; unfortunately because the job was done later then scheduled I was out of town so I got to see the open trench and the "finished" project. I was VERY clear with the estimator when he came to look at the site that the grate in the garage was NOT a drain; but that's the current destination of the condensate. As far as the city is concerned the job is done and they have moved on. I know better than to bring them back in on this one; it's can of worms I don't want to open.

I'm going to wait and see if they come back in the next couple of days to clean up the mess they left, then I will provide my feedback before the bill gets paid. I have used this HVAC contractor before and was pleased with the result - I'm thinking this project was outside their wheelhouse.

In the meantime I'm looking for condensate suggestions - I've thought about getting a plastic rain barrel to collect it (after neutralizing) and a sump pump to evacuate it - I think the higher water volume and less frequent pumping will be less likely to freeze up.

 

[mygarageone]

Boiler installed yesterday. Not impressed with installer as they left a mess, didn't add the fan loop requested, and don't have a plan for condensate. For now the drain goes to a catch I put in to collect snowmelt off vehicles; it isn't a drain so I'm looking for solutions. They say out through the wall isn't allowed because the line will freeze up. There must be a solution to this problem, ironically the city signed off on it already.

If your catch handles snow off vehicles , it will handle the condensate easily .

 

[LS6 Tommy]

No matter what you do with the condensate, it has to be neutralized first...

Tommy

 

[bruincounselor]

No matter what you do with the condensate, it has to be neutralized first...

Tommy

Thanks for reposting. I've stated twice now my intention to neutralize. Do you have suggestions for handling it short of the tens of thousands a real drain will cost?

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Thanks for reposting. I've stated twice now my intention to neutralize. Do you have suggestions for handling it short of the tens of thousands a real drain will cost?

Sorry! I missed that tidbit. Unfortunately, a "real" drain is the only way I'm aware of that is compliant, at least in NJ where I am...

Tommy

 

[terabitdan]

What about something like this?

https://www.water-softeners-filters.com/acid-neutralizer-calcite-filter-big-blue-cartridge-7362.php

No idea of these are any good. Seems like an inexpensive way to start and then test the pH


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk