Electrical planning

[supratreo]

So the framing is underway and I'm thinking I'd like to get the electrical permit going. I defiantly don't know where every single outlet will be at the moment but would like to at lease get the panel in and maybe a couple outlets that I do know. I spoke to my architect and he told me I'd have to show where every outlet, switch, junction, and light fixture would be along with the MODEL of the lights being using. If i don't know where the outlets will be I DEFIANTLY don't know what fixtures I'll be using.
Is there a minimum amount i can do for now to pass inspection and then add things later as needed? I'll be using MHF for this as recommended here and for ground we have a UFER ground in the footing. Wire run is about 125'.
This is in CA.
thank you

 

[whateg01]

You can be defiant about it if you want, but you definitely need to make the inspector happy.

 

[sparky 1971]

Minimum requirements are going to be a 20 amp receptacle circuit, one receptacle per parking stall, one light inside, and one exterior light for the service door(s). It'll probably have door openers so figure those outlets in too. And all receptacles are to be tamper resistant as well as GFCI protected.

 

[mm08822]

See it POCO will allow a temp service on the side of the house for construction only. Obviously, they will want to know the size of the finished service.

 

[supratreo]

Minimum requirements are going to be a 20 amp receptacle circuit, one receptacle per parking stall, one light inside, and one exterior light for the service door(s). It'll probably have door openers so figure those outlets in too. And all receptacles are to be tamper resistant as well as GFCI protected.

thank you. this will be in a barn, not an actual garage and roll up door will be manually operated with a chain but having an outlet for the future is easy enough. is 1 outlet for 2 doors (side by side) acceptable? would i also have to have drywall finished?

 

[supratreo]

See it POCO will allow a temp service on the side of the house for construction only. Obviously, they will want to know the size of the finished service.

i'm installing a sub panel from the house.

 

[ericm]

The lights probably need to meet CA's Title 24. You also need to tell the power company the load that the building will have so they can upgrade your service if needed. At your expense of course. Yes even for a sub panel though maybe only over a certain size. PG&E wants to see a permit and an electrician's load calculation. Lights and outlets are generally factored in using a fixed value per sq ft for the load calc but things like appliances and motors (i.e. air compressor) have to be enumerated.

PG&E lays out their requirements in the green book which is available on line. Title 24 is too. That one made my head hurt and I'm used to reading obtuse specifications.

You're going to have to choose outlet locations and lights at some point. I'm not sure what the problem is for doing it now vs later.

 

[gleman]

When I did my pole barn, I just asked my inspector what the minimum was and he was happy to tell me what was needed.

Did you talk to your AHJ?

 

[ericm]

Also the electrical inspection is supposed to be done when you're done wiring.

My county's planning dept told me to put in the minimum, get that inspected, and then finish the rest later (with a permit of course). But if you add appreciably to the load and don't get the service upgraded if it needs it, you'll probably have issues.

I could not get PG&E to tell me what service I have but I have heard other people who were able to get that info from the.

 

[Shiftless]

The lights probably need to meet CA's Title 24

That’s what I was up against when I did a gut remodel of our master bathroom. For purposes of inspection, I installed the cheapest tackiest looking Title 24 light fixture, and then after I passed, removed that horrid thing and installed the one I wanted that had non conforming halogen lamps.

(Please don’t turn me in to the energy police )

 

[mm08822]

Feeder
sub-panel
grd rods or ufer
1 gfci recept @ panel
1 inner light @ panel
1 outer light
1 outer recept

 

[sparky 1971]

thank you. this will be in a barn, not an actual garage

That's going to be up to the AHJ. If a car can fit through to door, it might be considered a garage.

and roll up door will be manually operated with a chain but having an outlet for the future is easy enough. is 1 outlet for 2 doors (side by side) acceptable?

if you can plug both of them in without an extension cord.

would i also have to have drywall finished?

Up to the AHJ. I've seem a few newish houses lately and the unfinished basement had drywall hung on the ceiling, but not finished during construction.

You should probably make a call to the building department and get straight answers instead of answers based on different parts of the country.

 

[supratreo]

The lights probably need to meet CA's Title 24. You also need to tell the power company the load that the building will have so they can upgrade your service if needed. At your expense of course. Yes even for a sub panel though maybe only over a certain size. PG&E wants to see a permit and an electrician's load calculation. Lights and outlets are generally factored in using a fixed value per sq ft for the load calc but things like appliances and motors (i.e. air compressor) have to be enumerated.

PG&E lays out their requirements in the green book which is available on line. Title 24 is too. That one made my head hurt and I'm used to reading obtuse specifications.

You're going to have to choose outlet locations and lights at some point. I'm not sure what the problem is for doing it now vs later.

Luckily I have SMUD. my main panel is 400A. I'm sure half this bs has to do with T24. last time i had to deal with that it was such a PITA.
I'll call the city and see what the deal is.

 

[sparky 1971]

Feeder
sub-panel
grd rods or ufer
1 gfci recept @ panel
1 inner light @ panel
1 outer light
1 outer recept

Did I not pay enough attention and miss something in the update class? Again. Since when has an exterior receptacle been required on something that wasn't a house?

 

[dscheidt]

Did I not pay enough attention and miss something in the update class? Again. Since when has an exterior receptacle been required on something that wasn't a house?

210.70 (A)(2)(b) has required it since at least the 2011 cycle. Some places have local amendments requiring control from the house, but a photocell or timer is acceptable most places.

 

[dscheidt]

edit: duh. You were asking about a receptacle outlet, not the lighting outlet.


210.70 (A)(2)(b) has required it since at least the 2011 cycle. Some places have local amendments requiring control from the house, but a photocell or timer is acceptable most places.

 

[sparky 1971]

210.70 (A)(2)(b) has required it since at least the 2011 cycle. Some places have local amendments requiring control from the house, but a photocell or timer is acceptable most places.

That would be a lighting outlet and I know those are required for the service doors, see post #3. My question was about exterior receptacles, which I don't think are required for garages or accessory buildings.

Edited. I didn't see your correction in time to stop my post.

 

[mm08822]

Did I not pay enough attention and miss something in the update class? Again. Since when has an exterior receptacle been required on something that wasn't a house?

Ahhh....I was thinking house when I wrote that.

 

[supratreo]

Are GFCI's required inside even if i don't have plumning?

 

[sparky 1971]

Are GFCI's required inside even if i don't have plumning?

Yep

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So the framing is underway and I'm thinking I'd like to get the electrical permit going. I defiantly don't know where every single outlet will be at the moment but would like to at lease get the panel in and maybe a couple outlets that I do know. I spoke to my architect and he told me I'd have to show where every outlet, switch, junction, and light fixture would be along with the MODEL of the lights being using. If i don't know where the outlets will be I DEFINITELY don't know what fixtures I'll be using.
Is there a minimum amount i can do for now to pass inspection and then add things later as needed? I'll be using MHF for this as recommended here and for ground we have a UFER ground in the footing. Wire run is about 125'.
This is in CA.
thank you

This is totally dependent on who your IA is.... go talk to the Elk Grove building dept if youre the one doing the electrical and pulling the permit... they will tell you what they want.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The lights probably need to meet CA's Title 24. You also need to tell the power company the load that the building will have so they can upgrade your service if needed. At your expense of course. Yes even for a sub panel though maybe only over a certain size. PG&E wants to see a permit and an electrician's load calculation. Lights and outlets are generally factored in using a fixed value per sq ft for the load calc but things like appliances and motors (i.e. air compressor) have to be enumerated.

PG&E lays out their requirements in the green book which is available on line. Title 24 is too. That one made my head hurt and I'm used to reading obtuse specifications.

You're going to have to choose outlet locations and lights at some point. I'm not sure what the problem is for doing it now vs later.

He is in Elk Grove. most likely has SMUD not Profit Gouge & Execute

 

[ericm]

He is in Elk Grove. most likely has SMUD not Profit Gouge & Execute

He added the location after I posted. He's fortunate to not have to deal with Pigs Grabbing Everything.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

He added the location after I posted. He's fortunate to not have to deal with Pigs Grabbing Everything.

Im very greatful I dont have to either. I used to....

 

[supratreo]

well just spoke to the city. they don't require anything specific said just to follow NEC.
wants me to just make a basic plot plan with where there power is coming from, AWG, conduit size, distance and locations for outlets and lights.
for this situation, i have 2-2-4-6 aluminum MHF. would this be good for 80A or 90A over 125'?

 

[sparky 1971]

well just spoke to the city. they don't require anything specific said just to follow NEC.
wants me to just make a basic plot plan with where there power is coming from, AWG, conduit size, distance and locations for outlets and lights.
for this situation, i have 2-2-4-6 aluminum MHF. would this be good for 80A or 90A over 125'?

Either one will be fine.

 

[Norcal]

Are GFCI's required inside even if i don't have plumning?

All receptacles require GFCI protection.

 

[supratreo]

All receptacles require GFCI protection.

got it. i thought it was only for wet locations. thats how it is in my house that was built in 2008.

 

[sparky 1971]

got it. i thought it was only for wet locations. thats how it is in my house that was built in 2008.

The manufacturers saw that there was more money to be ma....I mean, lives to save by getting GFCI protection added to a whole bunch of places it didn't need to be before. But in 2008 GFCI protection would have been required in an out building or garage, but I don't think the ceiling would have been included then.

 

[dcg9381]

well just spoke to the city. they don't require anything specific said just to follow NEC.

It's probably your architect / GC that wants details on "every fixture". What I do is provide indication like "recessed can" or "pendant" and then set aside an allowance for buying the fixtures.

wants me to just make a basic plot plan with where there power is coming from, AWG, conduit size, distance and locations for outlets and lights.
for this situation,

First, you're used to 2008 NEC. What NEC code year does the city follow? Often it's not "current code". But you're likely looking at arc-fault stuff too.

Personally, I'd do my GFI at the breaker UNLESS you're required go to a combo breaker (AFI/GFI) - those **** in my experience.

It's odd that he wants you to calculate distance for normal outlets. What you do want to pay attention to is outlets per circuit. I like to alternate 20A outlets in the garage between breakers.

 

[supratreo]

It's probably your architect / GC that wants details on "every fixture". What I do is provide indication like "recessed can" or "pendant" and then set aside an allowance for buying the fixtures.

First, you're used to 2008 NEC. What NEC code year does the city follow? Often it's not "current code". But you're likely looking at arc-fault stuff too.

Personally, I'd do my GFI at the breaker UNLESS you're required go to a combo breaker (AFI/GFI) - those **** in my experience.

It's odd that he wants you to calculate distance for normal outlets. What you do want to pay attention to is outlets per circuit. I like to alternate 20A outlets in the garage between breakers.

i should have asked but i assume they want me to follow current NEC. for the distance, its the run to the barn from the main, not between outlets.

 

[dcg9381]

i should have asked but i assume they want me to follow current NEC. for the distance, its the run to the barn from the main, not between outlets.

Definitely ask. Here they're often a good 3-4 years behind. If you want to take it up to modern code, you can do that too.
Barn to main distance makes sense on why the need that.

 

[sparky 1971]

There isn't going to be a requirement for AFCI's in an outbuilding unless it's a local ammendment and that would be stupid. The biggest thing as far as the minimum requirements would be the number of receptacles and that will be determined by whether it's considered a garage or not.

Post #3 gives the minimum garage requirements and it's been that way since either 2011 or 2014 so you should be OK depending on any local requirements.

 

[grounded-b]

got it. i thought it was only for wet locations. thats how it is in my house that was built in 2008.

Current NEC code requires GFCI protected outlets in un-finished basements, garages, outdoors, kitchens, bathrooms, laundry areas, pretty much any DAMP location. If your floor is unfinished concrete, gravel or dirt, it's damp.

 

[pbon]

Since the OP says he does not yet know where he wants power, is he leaving the walls open or using conduit that can be easily modified or does he have easy access to an attic and space to drill down into stud bays?

 

[PT Doc]

Wouldn’t you need an inspection after the electrical is done? If so having outlet and the. Adding can be a pain for you since you will be cutting wire and outlets. Is your plan to just have the bare bones minimum then pass inspection then tweak after?