Epoxy Applied - May have an issue (help!)

[Reflex]

First, thanks for view this thread. I've begun the floor finishing process and I fear I have a problem.

Outline:
Area - 2200 sq ft.
Slab - 68 days old, vapor barrier, moisture test completed before application
Prep - diamond grind
Product(s) - Legacy Industrial Epoxy Primer, SD Premium Epoxy
Application Temp - 81 degrees F
Humidity - 51%

Application:
Helpers - 3

Epoxy primer - mixed as directed, rolled on no issues (to my knowledge) waited 7.5 hours, no fingerprint.

Epoxy (SD Premium) - Mixed in three gallon increments as packaged. Mixed in new, clean 5 gallon buckets. A new and clean bucket was used for each batch/mix. Mix was pre-measured. Mixed thoroughly (4-5 minutes with mixer purchased from Legacy).

Epoxy was dumped in a ribbon(s) as directed, spread with 1/8" squeegee, and backrolled with 3/8 nap lint free roller.


The problem:
When we were applying the epoxy, we noticed some darker streaks in the light gray color. These streaks ran parallel to the direction the squeegee was used. Since these streaks didn't appear until moving on the the next section, we assumed the epoxy was beginning to "flash". We were all thrilled with the results as it was "instant pretty" taking only about an hour a 15 minutes to apply.

The results:
This morning before mixing the first coat of Urethane (HD322), the floor was checked to insure it was ready for the next coat. The time since application was 9 hours (temp and conditions above).

What we have found is that 1) significant outgassing has occurred 2) The epoxy has not cured in the darkest of these "streaks".

Outgassing - I can live with this unless somebody here tells me it will hamper performance. Also, I'm thinking that the HD322 with some anti slip in it will help it blend in.

Cure - This is my main concern. As I write this, my help and I are sitting at McDonalds waiting/hoping it will just take these spots a little longer to cure.

Questions:
1)It has now been 11 hours, some of these streaks are tacky enough the just a little bit of color comes of on my finger when I gently wipe. I think it's gotten a bit better over the last couple of hours. Will it cure?

2) The vast majority of the floor cured. These streaks are anywhere from 20-30' long and seem to match the width of the roller. Many of the streaks have cured. Given that it's been more than 12 hours, what will I have to do to the floor for it to take the urethane if the epoxy all cures?

3) What did I do wrong? I can't imagine that it needed additional mixing as these "streaks" are not uniform across the floor, but only appear in length. Example, much of the same batch cured just fine.

Your input is needed.

Thanks,

Reflex

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Some pictures would have been good.

Streaks that have not cured point to mixing, you likely had some unmixed material clinging to the sides of the bucket.

Bubbles can form from aggressive mixing, moisture, direct sunlight, etc...

If they cure to the touch you can proceed with urethane. If not, you will have to wait them out. Also any surface defects from bubbles will not be hidden by urethane. Urethane is thin.

Lastly, if you run out of time, you will have to de-gloss the floor, solvent wipe and then proceed with the urethane. This can be done with a sanding screen, 100 grit.


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[Reflex]

Scotty,

Thanks so much for the quick response. Your willingness to help your customers is why I purchased from you. I really wanted to e-mail or give you a call, but didn't want to bother you on a Sunday/weekend.

As per your suggestion, a few photos are below (didn't think the streaks would photograph). The item in the picture is a quarter. What's interesting, is that these "streaks" are very long and many have cured very well.

The darkest area just to the right of the quarter is wet enough to leave just a bit of material on my finger. The lighter areas are very firm and cured.

Note the length...not blotchy.

A little larger view.

My real question is whether or not they'll cure? While I don't want to wet sand, sanding probably would eliminate the out gassing bubbles....right?

Thanks,

Fred

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Fred and for others... We monitor our email and voice mails even more so during holiday weekends as that is a big coating event for many DIY.

The streaking and the uncured states of the streaking is definitely a mixing issue. With coatings it is wysiwyg. They don't change much as they cure.

I would wait them out even if it takes a few days. If they are sticky and getting progressively less wet, then they will likely cure.

Once cured I would screen/sand as mentioned, this will help with any bubbles too.




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[Reflex]

Scotty,

Thanks again. I guess now would be a good time to ask how to degloss. I've read several posts that talk about or recommend deglossing, but I haven't seen anything on exactly how to do it. My concerns are:

1) Burning though the epoxy with a floor machine
2) How to get up or clean the residue off the floor (thinking wet vac).
3) What chemical to use to finish the degloss (would help to know why too).
4) I've seen folks talk about moping with a given chemical (denatured alcohol etc.), but don't know if this is to make sure the surface is clean from a bonding standpoint, or if it's to insure that the residue is gone.

The nice thing about sanding is that it will get rid of the outgassing bubbles and I'd think the 2 coats of urethane schedule to complete the job would make for a phenomenal finish after sanding.

Thanks again,

Fred

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Think of painting a car. All you want to do is dull the gloss. This can be done by hand or with a floor buffer. Again, 100-120 grit screen.

Once complete wipe down with denatured alcohol.

Then commence with the urethane.

Keep the machine moving and you won't harm the epoxy.


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[Reflex]

Thanks Scotty, that helps.

I just went out and checked the worst spots and wiped my finger over it very lightly. It had a very light skin that was easily torn away. I poked the area underneath with a toothpick. Although it wasn't completely liquid, it did flow enough to close the holes. It's been 18 hours since the last coat.

I fear I have lost the floor.

Thanks for your help and taking the time to respond on Sunday, it's appreciated.

Fred

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Hang in there Fred, this can take a few days to harden.
Keep checking.

 

[Chicago Jeff]

I am having a similar issue.

This past weekend I began my flooring epoxy project. I am using the Legacy standard primer, then the HD epoxy with full flaking, and finally the urethane top coat. I prepped the floor with degreasing, power washing, and finally did the floor buffer with concrete profiling disk.

On Sunday morning I applied the primer, it was dry and withstanding imprints by 6pm Sunday night. I put the epoxy down that night and hit it with full flaking. I mixed the 2 cans and worked from ribbons on the floor as the directions say. I noticed that the epoxy ribbons tended to be thicker as I was back rolling them and i tried to spread it out the best I could with the 3/8" roller. I applied flakes and let it set. I went to urethane monday night and I still have some wet spots.....seems to be where the ribbon was poured across the floor. Monday was really hot and humid, so I was thinking it might still need time. I am now still tacky and it is almost 60 hours later, not seeming to harden for some reason. I have about 4 spots less than a softball in area still tacky. The wet spots appear to be where I did the ribbons of epoxy from the bucket.

Scotty has told me to wait it out too, but I am worried at this point. How are your "streaks" doing?

 

[benwah]

Sounds like incomplete mixing to me. You must be sure to scrape the sides and bottom of your container while mixing. If you had Part A or B on the side from when you poured it in and it didn't get mixed properly, exactly this will happen.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

They are both mixing issues.
The streaks are mostly cured, according to the talk we had.
Should be ok.


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[Reflex]

Gentlemen,

A brief update. This evening after I returned from a business trip, I entered my shop after almost exactly 96 hours of curing time. While the stripes had improved somewhat, I'm thinking that they are still not ready to take a final coat. There a some areas that are not even close to cured. In other area, they are much harder, but not nearly as hard as the properly mixed product.

Tomorrow I'll be calling Scotty to ask the following questions:

1) How long should I wait until I give up?
2) The epoxy that has improved is still soft even though much of it won't take a finger print. What does that mean?
3) The worst dark streaks, even the ones that have mostly cured have somewhat of a "tree bark" texture....does that tell us anything?

There were a couple of spots that I truly believe will never cure. I experimented with a putty knife and found that the material came up very easily. I also put a dimabrush 4 1/2 grinder on a portion of the worst area and found that even though it's soft, it's going to be a challenge to get up.

All in all, I'd say roughly 40% or 1000' of the shop is questionable. I say questionable because I don't know how to determine how hard the epoxy needs to be to be "OK". None of the black streaks are as hard as the properly cured epoxy.

A quick note. I've spoken to Legacy Industrial (Scotty) and I'd like to say that he's been fantastic. There is no doubt that this is a mixing issue. The first third of the floor looks absolutely great. This is NOT a Legacy Industrial product issue, it's an installer issue....period.

If I end up scraping this stuff off and starting over, there is absolutely no doubt that I'll use the same material, I'll just try and be smarter that the epoxy this time.

Scotty, if you read this, I hope to speak with you tomorrow.

Jeff, I'd be interested to know how your softball sized spots are doing as well.

 

[Chicago Jeff]

They are getting better. As of last night they were more "tacky" rather than wet, which is encouraging. I have basically said at this point I am going to wait until the weekend to decide if it is cured or not. I am using fans to keep air moving and trying to keep my garage doors open to bring in fresh air.

I am interested in the answer to your questions as well. Let's say this never dries enough for me to urethane, what can i do? Can i scrape up the wet spots, order another epoxy kit and touch up these areas, flake the new areas, and wait for cure to be able to urethane? Since I am doing full flake, I can easily make it match I think.

Let me know how your convo with Scotty goes please. I will continue to update my progress as well.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Guys:
Any area that is suspect needs to be manually scraped and wiped very well with a strong solvent , Xylol is a good one.

The wiping with the solvent is an important step to get rid of any amines still floating around. If not wiped well they can contaminate the repair and you will be doing this 2x even if you do mix it correctly the 2nd time.

If skinned over but still soft, it has to go.

Chicago: you should be able to patch your area well by using the flakes to hide it.
You also need to get on your horse and ride as time is not on your side. The balance of your floor is not going to wait for the uncured patches and sanding an unsealed full-flake is near impossible unless you want to re-do the entire floor, not fun.

Both of you know how to reach me if you want to talk about the steps.

 

[Reflex]

Update -

It's gotta come up.

I've decided rent an Edco with carbide blades, I think they call them "Flakey Jakes". Going to try and do about 1100-1200 feet as the soft spots are few but well distributed in this area. Started with a 4 1/2" dimabrush. Works well, but just too large of an area.

If no success, may have to get a pro involved.

Reflex

 

[PT Doc]

Holy cow. That's a lot work that is being undone. Best of luck.

 

[INTMD8]

In order to avoid this myself, any tips on ensuring that everything is 100% mixed?

 

[12ozd]

In order to avoid this myself, any tips on ensuring that everything is 100% mixed?

Use a good mixer, mix for the required time.
If you mix the components separately before combining them, use dedicated mixing paddles (blades) for each component.
Separate one for mix bucket as well.
When you pour components into the mix bucket, pour into the middle of the bucket. Do not let the material run down or splash on the sides.
Pour the entire contents out of the bucket onto the floor.

 

[pstnbly]

Just a suggestion-mix smaller batches next time.

 

[Reflex]

Doc, thanks for the wish for luck. By the way...great avatar!!

INTMID8 -When I do this again here's what I'm planning. You have to remember, I'm a rank amateur (but I did learn something).

1) Pour part "B" (hardner) into the bucket before part "A"
2) I'll pour part "A" into the middle of the bucket.
3) When mixing, I'll mix with both a stick and a mechanical paddles (drill)
4) I'll try and find out how long to mix
5) I'll use an extra bucket and pour the mix contents out of one bucket into another and give it a final mix
6) When pouring onto the floor, I'll pour larger ribbons, the places where I got what I thought was too much in one spot hardened nicely. I'm guessing that moving the material around getting it the proper level (easy with a 1/8 notched squeegee) probably forced additional mixing although unintentional.
7) I'll avoid using all the material in the bucket. When pouring the bucket out before, I tipped it up and let most of the material come out. Believe it or not, I wasn't trying to be a cheapskate, just didn't want to be wasteful. I'd guess that I left approximately 6 oz in each. This amount was just "stuck" due to surface tension. Much like the last part of ketchup in a bottle.

For those of you who have been scared of by this thread, actually putting the epoxy down is easy. I did a 2200 square foot shop in 55 minutes so pot life wasn't an issue. Had I mixed this material properly, I'd be done. The primer was rolled on in right at 2 hours (two people with 18" rollers). Prep was the hard part.

The part of the floor that came out properly looks so good, photos don't do it justice.

Any of you guys with more experience want to weigh-in on how I'm planning to do it next time?

Reflex

 

[sammer]

5) I'll use an extra bucket and pour the mix contents out of one bucket into another and give it a final mix

I make skis for a hobby, and have mixed a fair bit of epoxy over the last few years.

This is the advise I was going to give.
Scrape the sides and bottom of your primary mixing bucket when mixing, then pour into clean bucket. Give it another good stir with a clean stick then pour it out onto the floor.

Sorry you've had this problem, hope you have better luck next time!!!

sam

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Mixers... Not sticks.

Reflex:

The trick is to keep material off the sides and mix enough to make A&B one. I personally use a 3 minute minimum rule and keep the mixer moving throughout the batch, sides, bottom, etc...However I probably use a different drill and therefore , again, I recommend mixing enough to make A&B one component. The items you listed are good ones and definitely worth doing.

The streaking you had could be from two areas, the sides of the bucket and/or the bottom. If you scraped the bottom out and dumped it in the floor I will bet it was not mixed and is likely the culprit.




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[Reflex]

After a lot of thought, I called a couple of reputable flooring companies to get a bid on doing my floor. In addition, I thought I might be able to get a bid on just removing the coating, as I'd really like to go back with the Legacy Product(s).

The first gentleman showed up only to tell me that they don't do solid floors, only flake. He wasn't excited about removing the epoxy, but said that it could be done. He suggested that we do it hourly as he had no idea whether it would take a day or a week and that way neither of us would get burned. Unfortunately, he was covered up until late August. He was a great guy and said he'd send me a bid. He never did.

The second guy was a no show.

With this in mind, I thought, what the heck, if it's going to be at least August, I might as well give it a try. Saturday morning I went down to a rental store and spoke to the owner who suggested an Edco 10" Turbo grinder. Scotty suggested that I look at a higher RPM machine as it may help keep the blade(s) from clogging by slinging the epoxy out from the cutting surfaces. This machine spins at a higher RPM than many, so I tried it.

The Edco 10" Turbo is a large, heavy machine. It's propane powered and I thought it my be a little much for burning though epoxy. My fear was that it would gouge the concrete after it went though the epoxy. I was right.

I outlined the area to be stripped with tape. I thought I'd do one section just to see what happened. I began with an inconspicuous portion of the slab (not sure if that's possible in a room with no walls ). I put the Edco grinder on the floor and began. To my surprise, it was removing the epoxy! I did a very small area (3 square feet) then stopped to check the concrete underneath. I found that the concrete had been gouged, but it was minor. I realized that if this was going to work I'd need to: 1) keep the machine moving quickly from side to side 2) use a bit of back pressure on the handle to keep from going into the slab once the epoxy was gone. As you can imagine, the dust was incredible.

I experimented with various methods and finally settled on using the large grinder to get what it could from the slab without gouging, and then use my grinder with a 4 1/2" Dimabrush to get the remaining coating and feather out any gouges.

After a couple of hours, I had a section done!! Although the job was tough, I must say that I've had worse jobs. Don't get me wrong, I didn't enjoy it, but it wasn't impossible. I averaged about 90 square feet per hour and my 50+ year old body really feels it today.

The end result is that I removed approximately 1200 out of 2200 feet of epoxy in about 13 hours or so. The balance of epoxy is OK. Here's what I learned:

1) Properly hardened epoxy isn't all that tough to remove
2) Gummy epoxy is significantly harder to remove as the machine just won't go though it.
3) After the machine goes thought the epoxy it will gouge the floor!
4) Epoxy is harder for them machine to cut/sand than concrete.
5) When the job is complete, the floor has been re-profiled. I'd say that the portion of my floor is now at about CSP 3.
6) It is possible to get ALL the coating off.

Below is some pictures of the job and the equipment I used. By the way, if you don't have a very high quality respirator, you'd have a hard time being within 50 feet of this machine when in use!

Below are some pictures of what I used and the process.

Edco 10" Turbo Grinder. Propane powered, 11 hp, about 250 lbs.

Decent grade grinder with 4 1/2" Dimabrush. You simply can't do the job properly without this! The 4 1/2" Dimabrush should be up for the tool of the year award!

From right to left, this picture shows before during and after of the first section. Note the area in the middle (splotchy) is how the Edco machine left the floor. The Dimabrush was used to grind the balance off. It takes time, but it's not hard. The hard part is being bent over!

All in all, I'm ready for clean up. I bagged up the biggest part of the dust and I'd guess that it was around 250 pounds or so. The dust is EVERYWHERE in the building and I'd guess that it will take me a day to clean.

At this point, I'm ready to try again. I'll call Scotty to find out about proper prep from here, order the product, and proceed.

Reflex

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Out of all the Edco and Edco-like machines out there the 10" is the best for these jobs. The dual head spreads the pressure out too far and the dyma-serts are not as aggressive as some of the newer grinding heads available. Glad you shared your experience with the machine for others to see.